Is Rugby Modern Gladiators?

[Wookie]

I'm American and know nothing about Rugby. I'm watching Saracens vs Harlequins while I wait for a Soccer friendly to start. I mean, there aren't any lions waiting to eat the vanquished, but these guys are sadistic. No pads, they are NFL sized. They hit like NFLers but there is no protection.  Sounds like the concussion rate in Rugby is really high. Is this the craziest sport going? Will it survive with the brutality? (I wonder how long NFL will survive...they keep making changes to try to protect players which has made the game progressively more boring over the last 30 years...IMHO)

[99call]

16 hours ago, Wookie said:

Sounds like the concussion rate in Rugby is really high. Is this the craziest sport going? Will it survive with the brutality? (I wonder how long NFL will survive...they keep making changes to try to protect players which has made the game progressively more boring over the last 30 years...IMHO)

Over the last 20yrs Rugby Union has been hugely influenced by Rugby League in its defensive systems. As their coaches were seen as (and were) far more professional in their organisation and brutality.   

You see a lot of stand up face to face tackles in rugby league. 100% commitment but pretty gut wrenching on the eye. Rugby Union currently has a huge body of players with early on-set dementia, and are trying to reverse some of the influence of Rugby League. I.e. going a lot less upright, and trying to tackle (ideally) at waist height and lower. Which was the style in the 1990s when I played.

If you think Rugby Union is brutal, watch Rugby League's State of Origin. It will send a cold shiver down your spine.

Their is an ancient provincial Italian 'game' Calcio Storico. Still going I think. Which is basically massive bare knuckle fighting. There doesn't appear to be any rules, and is pretty grotesque.

[BoliDan]

2 hours ago, Wookie said:

I'm American and know nothing about Rugby. I'm watching Saracens vs Harlequins while I wait for a Soccer friendly to start. I mean, there aren't any lions waiting to eat the vanquished, but these guys are sadistic. No pads, they are NFL sized. They hit like NFLers but there is no protection. Sounds like the concussion rate in Rugby is really high. Is this the craziest sport going? Will it survive with the brutality? (I wonder how long NFL will survive...they keep making changes to try to protect players which has made the game progressively more boring over the last 30 years...IMHO)

There were 45 deaths in American football between just 1900-1905. The thing with American football is the stop strategize and go. Every stop and go is about 8 people ramming in to each other. A scrum is nothing compared to the violence of an offensive and defensive line trying to mangle each other. It's not a constant run where in person gets tackled at the waist every now and again. There are big hits in rugby, but CTE is more prevalent in American Football for a reason. It definitely needs armor.

[99call]

1 hour ago, BoliDan said:

but CTE is more prevalent in American Football for a reason

I think getting impacts to the side of the head, seems to knock people out a lot more frequently. In rugby union its often not the guy getting tackled that gets knocked out, but the defender.     

By far the most frequent occurrence of concussion in rugby union Is when the defender chooses the wrong shoulder to tackle with, and gets a knee or a hip to the side of the head.  

[BoliDan]

2 hours ago, 99call said:

I think getting impacts to the side of the head, seems to knock people out a lot more frequently. In rugby union its often not the guy getting tackled that gets knocked out, but the defender.     

By far the most frequent occurrence of concussion in rugby union Is when the defender chooses the wrong shoulder to tackle with, and gets a knee or a hip to the side of the head.  

I think it's also the factor of trying to squeeze as much distance out of a play as possible. Since you need to get a certain amount of yards before giving the other team the ball, offense will put their head down in order to bulldoze extra distance, but the defender also needs to put their head down for a tackle, which ends up being catastrophic collisions. 

[MrBirdman]

3 hours ago, BoliDan said:

There were 45 deaths in American football between just 1900-1905. The thing with American football is the stop strategize and go. Every stop and go is about 8 people ramming in to each other. A scrum is nothing compared to the violence of an offensive and defensive line trying to mangle each other. It's not a constant run where in person gets tackled at the waist every now and again. There are big hits in rugby, but CTE is more prevalent in American Football for a reason. It definitely needs armor

3 hours ago, 99call said:

I think getting impacts to the side of the head, seems to knock people out a lot more frequently. In rugby union its often not the guy getting tackled that gets knocked out, but the defender.     

By far the most frequent occurrence of concussion in rugby union Is when the defender chooses the wrong shoulder to tackle with, and gets a knee or a hip to the side of the head.  

Concussion rates are significantly higher in rugby than American football. I suspect much of this is attributable to equipment differences. Modern football helmets are basically anti-concussion boxes for your head.

To be clear, concussion rates are not a perfect index for the likelihood of CTE, which is the result of many cumulative sub-concussive hits over time. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if CTE was more common in American football, if only because of how players practice and learn the sport. I’m not sure the research into CTE is advanced enough to say, partly because it can only be diagnosed definitively after death and requires the brain be donated.

Needless to say, players of both sports have higher than normal incidences of dementia and neurodegenerative diseases. 

[Ken Gargett]

i remember when some American friends joined us for a game of touch footy (first thing was that they fell for the dummy every single time). they've come in with their head. we could not believe it. the two games have very different styles of tackling. the rugby tackler must release. they need to get themselves ready for the next play which could be two seconds away. in American football, a good tackle ends the play and everyone has a chat. i'm not mocking American football, i love the game. 

BD, scrums are not really an issue in rugby for concussion and recent laws have made them far more gentle than they used to be. they can be a serious issue for neck and back injuries if the players get it wrong or it just happens to go bad. 

league is different again. these days, the only injury in a league scrum is hurt feelings because someone said something mean. they are innocuous. 

but that said, and as i have been saying for decades, league at its best, which is basically what we call state of origin, is as 99call says, the toughest and hardest footy on the planet.

some of these would make sean taylor proud.

 https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=913009705537918

far fewer fights these days as you are likely to get sent off but here are a few.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2291870831100548

 

[BoliDan]

5 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i remember when some American friends joined us for a game of touch footy (first thing was that they fell for the dummy every single time). they've come in with their head. we could not believe it. the two games have very different styles of tackling. the rugby tackler must release. they need to get themselves ready for the next play which could be two seconds away. in American football, a good tackle ends the play and everyone has a chat. i'm not mocking American football, i love the game. 

BD, scrums are not really an issue in rugby for concussion and recent laws have made them far more gentle than they used to be. they can be a serious issue for neck and back injuries if the players get it wrong or it just happens to go bad. 

league is different again. these days, the only injury in a league scrum is hurt feelings because someone said something mean. they are innocuous. 

but that said, and as i have been saying for decades, league at its best, which is basically what we call state of origin, is as 99call says, the toughest and hardest footy on the planet.

some of these would make sean taylor proud.

 https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=913009705537918

far fewer fights these days as you are likely to get sent off but here are a few.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2291870831100548

 

I understand that my friend, I just get ornery when people say rugby is more warrior than American football because they wear armor. The armor is 100% a requirement in American football. And I always need to interject. Stop and go plays ensures more violence 

[99call]

3 hours ago, BoliDan said:

I understand that my friend, I just get ornery when people say rugby is more warrior than American football because they wear armor. The armor is 100% a requirement in American football. And I always need to interject. Stop and go plays ensures more violence 

They are obviously completely different sports with many factors at play. I agree with you that the helmets are a necessity in American football. If you affectively using you head as an offensive asset, then it's a no brainer (pardon the pun).  

All I will say regarding bravery and physical jepardy, is that if I had to either take the field of an NFL game or a State of Origin Rugby League game. On personal injury and physical battery/exhaustion merits alone. I'd be choosing NFL every single day of the week. 

[Ken Gargett]

16 hours ago, BoliDan said:

I understand that my friend, I just get ornery when people say rugby is more warrior than American football because they wear armor. The armor is 100% a requirement in American football. And I always need to interject. Stop and go plays ensures more violence 

all true and no question that these are all violent sports. i have AFL friends who even put in a claim. that tends to be based on the fact that in AFL, more of the hits and tackles can be blindsiding the player and if you are not prepared to take a hit, you can be badly hurt.

all these sports have different rules and styles. the head is sacrosanct in rugby and league (unless, of course, you play for the roosters or Penrith, then it is open season). the NFL horsecollar tackle. rarely even draws a penalty on field in league. the hip drop tackle in league can get you a suspension of four to six weeks. it is only now about to be penalised in the NFL. 

in rugby, especially, players need to be ready to make the next tackle/play/join a ruck or maul, immediately after they make a tackle. if you go in with the huge hit, chances are you won't be able to contribute the next phase of play (i'm looking at you, Nathan Grey). in the NFL, a monster hit will shut down that play. league is a bit half way in between. 

different fitness levels are also playing a role here. AFL talks about the need for aerobic fitness for all the miles they run. certainly that is also necessary for rugby and league. less so for NFL. although obviously some of those WRs are supremely fit, and others.

if you get a chance to read Col Scotts' autobiography (a good mate of mine wrote it) - Col was the first Aussie to play in the NFL other than as a kicker. he was spotted on a junior wallaby tour of the UK and scouted by the Uni of Hawaii. when he went to the induction or whatever they call it, remembering that this was back early 80s, there were about 150 hopefuls. first up, the bench press. no aussie had a clue what a bench press was back then. as kids, we played touch footy or sometimes more serious footy in the park every day after school. no one went to a gym. not sure there even were any. of course, things very different now. so Col steps up and can't do a single bench press. he has never done weights in his life. remember that he was scouted while on tour with the junior Australian rugby team, so not as though he was some country mug (he also grew up next to Kerry Packer so this was an extremely wealthy neighbourhood. if these things were available, Col would have had them). 

col couldn't do one. no idea what it was set on but Col was a big bloke (when i met him several times after he had finally returned to Australia, he was huge. a man mountain. but he was stone motherless last out of 150. mocked mercilessly.

next up, lung capacity. you have to breath into a machine of sorts to measure lung capacity. when it got to Col's turn, they were still laughing at the idiot Aussie. turns out the machine was not calibrated to be able to handle Col and he blew it up. to everyone's astonishment. but that was because as kids, we never did a single weight but we ran around footy fields before school, at lunch and after school (not that you could tell from me today). you need that sort of fitness for AFL, rugby and league. much less so for NFL, where that very short, quick, violent play is much more important. 

[99call]

8 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

in rugby, especially, players need to be ready to make the next tackle/play/join a ruck or maul, immediately after they make a tackle. if you go in with the huge hit, chances are you won't be able to contribute the next phase of play (i'm looking at you, Nathan Grey). in the NFL, a monster hit will shut down that play. league is a bit half way in between. 

This is well put Ken.    

It boils my brains the so called rugby pro commentators in the UK can't understand whats going on with Owen Farrell's tackling style. A, he's from a rugby league background anyway so he's quite upright in his tackling style. but also B, he's an obsessional competitor. He doesn't want to complete a traditional waist high tackle and be at the bottom of a ruck for the next 10 seconds. He want's to make a no arms 'soak up' tackle, to at least kill the momentum of the attacking player, until other defensive players arrive, by which point he's already recycled himself back into the defensive line in the 10 position, and ready for the next wave of attack. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like Owen Farrell, (and am not defending his long list of infringements). But bloody hell!!!  How can well paid commentators not accurately read into the rhyme and reason of what he's trying to execute. 

[Fuzz]

I remember reading an article back in 2018 about the number of concussions in Rugby, NFL, Hockey, Soccer etc. Rugby had the most concussions per 1000 players, NFL next, women's and men's Ice Hockey, women's Soccer and way down the list... men's Soccer. Female players had a higher risk of concussion than men. Even in practice, women had higher rates of concussion than men in a similar sport.

[ayedfy]

these days, the only injury in a league scrum is hurt feelings because someone said something mean. 

[Ken Gargett]

perfect. 

but in fairness to Sammy, nate miles has a huge head.