EAR: Humidity confusion.

[El Presidente]

EAR = Email assistance required. 

 

A good member sent this through earlier today but I am not sure I gave the best response. 

He deserves broader input into his situation. Lend a hand if you can as I hate giving half arsed advice.  

 

 

Hope you're doing well! I'd like your expert opinion on something. I have an RH issue that won't go away.  First and foremost, my hygrometers have been quadruple calibrated and rotated around to test everything as thoroughly as I can.

I have half my cigars in tupperdores with 62RH Bovedas and cedar trays. Those are solid and stay between 62-65 RH regardless of season/weather/room temp etc. 

The other half of my cigars are in a NewAir wineador. After a year of on and off (mostly off) success maintaining an acceptable 62-67 RH depending on season/weather/etc, using the large cardboard covered 62RH Bovedas, I decided to unplug the cursed machine and use it as a giant tupperdore hoping I could replicate what the tupperdores are doing.

I thought that would solve the problem. It seems that even unplugged using 62RH bovedas, the RH is closer to 70RH. And unplugged with zero Bovedas used I can maintain a steady 65RH. Is it fine for me to use it unplugged with no Bovedas as long as I'm getting a decent reading of 65?

FYI, the house humidity is around 59-62RH.

Let me know your thoughts. 

[Fugu]

Air circulation!

A larger-volume wineador will inevitably create inhomogeneities when kept idle. Moist air is rising up. So either get rid of that thing and store in multiple smaller units instead, when relying on salt-bags for humidity control. Or install decent circulation / airflow in the wineador, even if cooling is switched off.

(P.S. always tricky to remote-diagnose, but from the bits of information given, stagnant atmosphere most likely to be the cause)

[Edicion]

5 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Air circulation!

First thing I thought too. There's no new air in this Newair. 

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, Edicion said:

There's no new air in this Newair. 

Yes, this Newair is currently an oldair. 

[PrairieSmoke]

I'd say it's more than just air circulation. If you are hitting 70% RH when your ambient RH is lower and the New Air is off, you have too much existing moisture in the unit. Leave the door open for a while a couple of times a day and start lowering the moisture content of your cigars/boxes. Keep checking where the RH lands after you have it closed for a while. Rinse/Repeat. Once you get closer to your target RH the new air will act like a tupperdor. I did this for years.

There will still be some RH stratification from top to bottom like the guys above have said, but that isn't a big deal if you are in your target RH window.

[jonahs_whale]

I have this exact same problem with my Newair! my 62% bovedas are getting so puffy. I've finally got it down to 68% after opening the fridge for a couple hours at a time for a number of days. Pulled out the boveda and trying to dry it out a tad before putting it back in. Temp is great, but was hoping to never have to worry about this bad boy.

[Hammer Smokin']

house humidity 59 to 62? sounds like he/she doesn't need a humidor at all.

[BrightonCorgi]

32 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

house humidity 59 to 62? sounds like he/she doesn't need a humidor at all.

I know!  I'd be more concerned about black mold in the house than humidor concerns. 

Just open the cooler with the higher humidity more often and give the lid a couple of flaps before closing.  That'll move the air around.

[havanaclub]

Yeah could be circulation as others have mentioned.
I have 2 fans in my newair at the bottom pushing air up. They are on a timer that runs on and off every hour. I think it’s on for 5 mins and off for 1 hour. Also my new air is in my basement and doesn’t require being plugged in as it sits at 65-68F all year around.


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[SCgarman]

3 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

house humidity 59 to 62? sounds like he/she doesn't need a humidor at all.

Bingo. 62%, leave 'em out in the open. No point of a humidor

[helix]

Get your house RH stable. 

Here’s a quick and dirty scale:

For an outdoor temperature over 50˚F, indoor humidity levels shouldn’t exceed 50%

With an outdoor temperature over 20˚F, indoor humidity levels shouldn’t exceed 40%

Outdoor temperature between 10˚F and 20˚F, indoor humidity levels shouldn’t exceed 35%

For an outdoor temperature between 0˚F and 10˚F, indoor humidity levels shouldn’t exceed 30%

Outdoor temperature between -10˚F and 0˚F, indoor humidity levels shouldn’t exceed 25%

With an outdoor temperature between -20˚F and -10˚F, indoor humidity levels shouldn’t exceed 20%

Outdoor temperature at -20˚F or lower, indoor humidity levels shouldn’t exceed 15%

[NSXCIGAR]

12 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I'd be more concerned about black mold

Yikes, yeah, that could certainly do you in. I don't believe black mold can form on Spanish cedar though. Has to be a surface with high cellulose content.

[Fugu]

19 hours ago, PrairieSmoke said:

I'd say it's more than just air circulation. If you are hitting 70% RH when your ambient RH is lower and the New Air is off, you have too much existing moisture in the unit.

Depending on his setup, it could pretty much be caused by stagnant air alone: E.g. when the 62%-Bovedas sit more towards the bottom and just one hygrometer is being placed more in eye height (as is often done for easier readability). Now, the moist air will slowly rise to the top and accumulate moisture there, while the B-pack may still release moisture to counterbalance the loss, as it’s sitting in the dryer part of the beast. That goes on until reaching a steady state. Temperature gradients can worsen the effect. Therefore: You CAN‘T use a large vertical volume w/o air circulation and not incur stratification. Get that issue solved first, and then take it from there.

That said, pics of the particular setup could be of help.

[PrairieSmoke]

There can absolutely be stratification. I used 2 New Airs for years and I never saw that high of a differential from the Boveda unless the media (cigars/boxes) were wetter than the target RH. Just sharing my experience. 

[BrightonCorgi]

5 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Yikes, yeah, that could certainly do you in. I don't believe black mold can form on Spanish cedar though. Has to be a surface with high cellulose content.

I said that for the house; not the coolers.  If the home humidity is that high, it may warrant a deeper dive into why.

[Silverstix]

What’s all this talk about 59-62 rh in the house being a problem? Lol that’s perfectly comfortable and normal. Above 50* outside and the rh in the house shouldn’t be above 50%? Huh? Black mold? Where I’m at it’s 73* outside and 86% humidity right now. Summers are always hot and humid too. If my AC isn’t running, it’s gonna be humid in the house. Just the way it works.


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[Fugu]

6 hours ago, PrairieSmoke said:

There can absolutely be stratification. I used 2 New Airs for years and I never saw that high of a differential from the Boveda unless the media (cigars/boxes) were wetter than the target RH. Just sharing my experience. 

Yeah, absolutely. I am not dismissing your personal experience whatsoever. But I am trying to look at what the EAR enquirer describes: If the ambient humidity is @ rH 59-62%, and the switched-off cabinet maintains rH 70% (assuming temperature to be even between in and outside), then the indicated high moisture must derive from somewhere else than the (dryer) outside. So what’s the water-source here? Can’t be a cooling / dew point shifting effect when the unit is switched off (no temperature gradients taken as a given). From what the OP describes - rH up to 70% with “Boveda in”, but down to 65% with “Boveda out” (again - cooling kept switched off, all else kept unchanged) - tells me, the humidity-packs are the source. And a lacking air circulation is the most likely cause.

Just taking the factual situation as it is presented to us. But I’ll admit it still is a fair bit of guesswork without further details on the particular setup.

[GavLew79]

Paging Ray @PigFish

[PigFish]

Been meaning to chime in here. Just working too much!

-the Pig