Sancho Panza Non Plus… is it really discontinued?

[NSXCIGAR]

12 minutes ago, JohnS said:

I found one source stating that the fields in the south-east of the Pinar de Rio region, close to the sea, accounted for the saltiness in the Sancho Panza marca.

Not that I subscribe to this theory but it would be the south-southwest region of San Juan in the Vuelta Abajo. The area closest to the sea is a very small area that juts out. It appears very tiny and if true it wouldn't be large enough to grow more than about one brand's worth of leaf with that particular characteristic.

[JohnS]

Just now, NSXCIGAR said:

Not that I subscribe to this theory but it would be the south-southwest region of San Juan in the Vuelta Abajo. The area closest to the sea is a very small area that juts out. It appears very tiny and if true it wouldn't be large enough to grow more than about one brand's worth of leaf with that particular characteristic.

Yes, thank you, that would be a more accurate description of the area from memory. 👍

[Corylax18]

33 minutes ago, JohnS said:

I had a discussion with @Trevor2118 about this a few years ago that I believe would interest @ATGroom. Trevor always maintained a clear policy of verifying information for Cuban Cigar Website with two verifiable sources. I found one source stating that the fields in the south-east of the Pinar de Rio region, close to the sea, accounted for the saltiness in the Sancho Panza marca. Trevor was aware of it but because there weren't other sources to support it, and incidentally we haven't seen any since, this information was not included on Cuban Cigar Website, at the time.

It's a fascinating question. I didnt realize how close some of the area was to the ocean until I was served Lobster for lunch at a farm. Fresh out of the ocean that morning. 

The center of San Juan y Martinez is only 7.5 Miles/12 Km from the ocean. Many farms are even closer, I roughly outlined the valley in red. There are some VERY famous farms in that triangle. 

T

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, JohnS said:

Trevor was aware of it but because there weren't other sources to support it, and incidentally we haven't seen any since, this information was not included on Cuban Cigar Website, at the time.

And I guess Trevor was right in doing so. Although it’s a nice associative, it seems not more than conjecture. Even if it were so, salt in the air or soil doesn’t necessarily make a „salty“ leaf. What people tend to taste in SP is the „flavour“, the „aroma“ that gives us the association of a summer’s day at the seaside or even a walk down the docks. But that is the aroma, the smell of other things than salt, mainly DMS (saltiness, strictly isn’t a flavour, it isn’t volatile, you can’t smell it either). Some call it driftwood, and you know immediately what is meant. For me that is a perfect figurative with SP. That drying driftwood at the beach we used to play with when we were kids.

It might derive from a special plot of soil, but I guess those „uni“-ish notes do come about by pure chance of the location, perhaps in unit with a particular processing, but not because the leaves have necessarily „seen the sea“.

That said, I have never been a big fan of the NP. Preferred most other vitolas above it (Molinos, Beli, Bachilleres, CG). But would I come across a box of NP today I’d jump on it. 😅

[SCgarman]

6 minutes ago, Fugu said:

And I guess Trevor was right in doing so. Although it’s a nice associative, it seems not more than conjecture. Even if it were so, salt in the air or soil doesn’t make a „salty“ leaf. What people tend to taste in SP is the „flavour“, the „aroma“ that gives us the association of a summer’s day at the seaside or even a walk down the docks. But that is the aroma, the smell of other things than salt, mainly DMS (saltiness, strictly isn’t a flavour, it isn’t volatile, you can’t smell it either). Some call it driftwood, and you know immediately what is meant. For me that is a perfect figurative with SP. That drying driftwood at the beach we used to play with when we were kids.

It might derive from a special plot of soil, but I guess those „uni“-ish notes do come about by pure chance of the location, perhaps in unit with a particular processing, but not because the leaves have necessarily „seen the sea“.

That said, I have never been a big fan of the NP. Preferred most other vitolas above it (Molinos, Beli, Bachilleres, CG). But would I come across a box of NP today I’d jump on it. 😅

Not a fan, but you would grab a box if u could? Classic case of FOMO !!

[ATGroom]

2 hours ago, JohnS said:

I had a discussion with @Trevor2118 about this a few years ago that I believe would interest @ATGroom. Trevor always maintained a clear policy of verifying information for Cuban Cigar Website with two verifiable sources. I found one source stating that the fields in the south-east of the Pinar de Rio region, close to the sea, accounted for the saltiness in the Sancho Panza marca. Trevor was aware of it but because there weren't other sources to support it, and incidentally we haven't seen any since, this information was not included on Cuban Cigar Website, at the time.

For something like the Non-Plus being discontinued, getting two sources is a matter of speaking with two distributors or something like that. These days, getting the facts straight on that kind of stuff less of an issue than it used to be just because I have better access to industry people than I used to.

I have heard the sea air gives a salty taste thing as well, however, I think this is something that would struggle to ever get elevated to 'fact' status enough to be included in CCW.

The only people who would know with any certainty would be the master blenders, and even then their knowledge would be "tobacco from this farm is good for Sancho Panza," and the idea that it was the sea air giving it the taste would be just conjecture. It could be the soil, or that particular farmer's fertilization technique or anything else.

It is exactly the kind of myth that people like to spin around cigars, so it would be very easy to hear it from a veguero in Pinar, find it repeated in a cigar book, hear it again from a retailer etc etc and call it sourced, but unless a report from the Tobacco Research Institute doing a controlled study of salt content of tobacco by region surfaces, I don't see how this can ever get beyond 'apocryphal.'

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, ATGroom said:

The only people who would know with any certainty would be the master blenders

And by "master blenders" that would be only a few individuals, not the dozens of "blenders" or "master blenders" Tabacuba employs. These are the best-kept secrets of the Cuban cigar industry. Probably not even written down but passed from one individual to another.

The exact areas where leaf for a particular brand or cigar is grown is highly guarded. It is like the Coca-Cola recipe or KFC spices kept in a vault that requires three people with a different key turned at the same time. 

The Cuban state could fall and tobacco production totally privatized and the knowledge of what leaf went into what cigars would be lost, or possibly available from the few oath keepers to the highest bidders. 

[SCgarman]

22 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

And by "master blenders" that would be only a few individuals, not the dozens of "blenders" or "master blenders" Tabacuba employs. These are the best-kept secrets of the Cuban cigar industry. Probably not even written down but passed from one individual to another.

The exact areas where leaf for a particular brand or cigar is grown is highly guarded. It is like the Coca-Cola recipe or KFC spices kept in a vault that requires three people with a different key turned at the same time. 

The Cuban state could fall and tobacco production totally privatized and the knowledge of what leaf went into what cigars would be lost, or possibly available from the few oath keepers to the highest bidders. 

I would love to know that KFC spice recipe. Surprised it has never been compromised 

[Fugu]

16 hours ago, SCgarman said:

Not a fan, but you would grab a box if u could? Classic case of FOMO !!

Haha, yes, true perhaps. Call me guilty 😂.

Well, I meant to say I am not that huge a fan of them. Which doesn’t translate to, I don’t like them (and I even got them in my stash). But I’d buy current ones simply because I can’t get hold of any Belis atm. Given the choice between the Non-Plus and the Belicosos, my pick would always be the Beli. 

[SCgarman]

30 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Haha, yes, true perhaps. Call me guilty 😂.

Well, I meant to say I am not that huge a fan of them. Which doesn’t translate to, I don’t like them (and I even got them in my stash). But I’d buy current ones simply because I can’t get hold of any Belis atm. Given the choice between the Non-Plus and the Belicosos, my pick would always be the Beli. 

Agreed. I have a box of Beli and about half a box of non plus. Both are now basically non existent so consequently I grab these sparingly. And God knows how much a box of Belis will cost if/when they are produced again? The Habanos catalog will likely be in shambles for who knows how long.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, SCgarman said:

And God knows how much a box of Belis will cost if/when they are produced again?

They've been in continuous production, just very limited. I've seen 20 and 21 boxes and I believe 22. 

As far as price it should be about the same as BBF. Always has been. 

[liquid360]

Haha, yes, true perhaps. Call me guilty .
Well, I meant to say I am not that huge a fan of them. Which doesn’t translate to, I don’t like them (and I even got them in my stash). But I’d buy current ones simply because I can’t get hold of any Belis atm. Given the choice between the Non-Plus and the Belicosos, my pick would always be the Beli. 

I just purchased two box of the Belicosos and they were $515/per but I adore them so whatcha gonna do.


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[Fugu]

6 hours ago, liquid360 said:

I just purchased two box of the Belicosos and they were $515/per but I adore them so whatcha gonna do.


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Boohoo! 😭😭😭

[liquid360]

Boohoo!

Just sayin’… that’s a huge price increase!


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[gregspringer1]

Here is said box….. absolutely gorgeous and grateful to have In my possession 

[traveller]

Anyone seen these recently? Been craving these recently. Or is Sancho Panza truly down to one vitola?

[KCCubano]

9 minutes ago, traveller said:

Anyone seen these recently? Been craving these recently. Or is Sancho Panza truly down to one vitola?

They have been posted on 2424 recently and believe 2023 codes

[theTXpanda]

35 minutes ago, traveller said:

Anyone seen these recently? Been craving these recently. Or is Sancho Panza truly down to one vitola?

I snagged a box on Non Plus on 24:24 on April 15th. Box code BRT Jun 23. I think that I actually saw them on 24:24 again since the 15th. Or maybe it was right before. But multiple times this month at least. 

[NSXCIGAR]

They seem to be being produced annually around Mar-July mainly at Villamil in Artemisa although I don't recall seeing any 20 or 21 production leading many to believe they were discontinued at the time. Fortunately rumors of their demise were greatly exaggerated. 

Why they decided to keep these and kill JLPC is beyond me. I'd be surprised if the NP ever outsold JLPC.