What is the prevalence of Premium Non Cuban fakes?

[El Presidente]

Fake Arturo Fuente, Padron, NC Davifdoff? Maybe fake Tatuaje?

What is the prevalence of premium NC fakes?  We all know about the world of Cuban fakes but Premium NC fakes are seldom spoken about to my knowlege. 

Are you aware of them? Have you seen one? Have FB / Reddit scams come to light at one point or another?  If there are NC fakes, is there a consensus as to where they originate?

Some of the prices of rare Opus etc are eyepopping indeed. I would guess that fakes are an issue. Maybe not?

It would be great to get a better understanding. If you can shed some light, shine it here 

[Joeyjojo]

I've never seen one, and too be honest, couldn't see why anyone would fake them since they are cheap(ish) and plentiful in most of the US and the local Latin American people who make them are well enough compensated not to bother. 

The nearest to 'counterfeit' NC cigars you'll see would be the legit ones lifted out the back of a truck in Florida I would have thought?

The whole reason for fake CC seem to be the 'forbidden fruit' market in the US and even if someone in Europe wanted a super limited NC there are more than enough folks who know how to ship them problem free online. 

 

[Cigar Surgeon]

Every once in a while I see a fake Fuente or a fake Padron posted but other than someone clowning around trying to add a second band to a Drew Estate I fakes in the NC world are more of a rarity.

Likely a combination of so many available brands coupled with not a lot of financial incentive to try and pass off fake brands. 

[Meesterjojo]

I don't know, but I'd suspect the more premium NCs have fakes. Like davidoff. 

I buy my Arturo Fuente from the source/family. So I have no worries there. As stated, I do worry about davidoff now and then, but then I rarely order these. And I've never had an opus much less order them. I can see how they'd be faked.

And finally, I consider Paul Garmirian to be premium NCs up there with davidoff. I also only buy from the source.

Nothing else in the NC world hold much interest or value to me. 

 

[ATGroom]

I don't have any information about it, but for the "low quality fakes" ie, home rolls in Cuba, glass tops sold on the beach in the Bahamas, rebanded Mexican factory cigars sold to tourists in Tijuana etc, sold by a Cuban guy in Miami, these basically rely on people who don't know anything about cigars buying a story about how my cousin works in the factory in Havana. They trade on the fact that Cubans are something special and illicit. I don't think NC fakes would be produced at this level.

However, there are also the 'high quality' fakes that are produced in professional factories in China that are sold on professional looking websites, and in stores in Asia and likely elsewhere in the world. I don't see any reason that this stream wouldn't produce fake NCs. They don't need to rely on selling a story, they could just sell into liquor store level retail and say "I grey market import and get you these cigars 30% cheaper than the official distributor." There is nothing harder about producing them, I believe there is a market for them, and they'd probably be subject to less scrutiny in general as the idea of a fake non-Cuban is less well known.

All pure speculation.

[StewartSVT]

I found that Fuente was a fairly popular fake in the Dominican on my past trip this summer.  I saw several boxes of fake Opus, Angels Share and Don Carlos Eye of the Sharks.  To no surprise, these locations also had bad fakes of Cubans (jars of Behikes, etc).  I find anywhere thats a tourist destination, people will prey on the unaware to make a buck.

[ATGroom]

I don't know anything really about NCs - for those who know more, do NCs go to any effort with anti-counterfeiting measures?

I.e., Cubans have microprinted holograms on seals and some bands, UV fluorescent ink on seals and some bands, unique serial numbers on each box linked back to a central database that consumers can check. Do NCs do any of this stuff? Or any other measures? 

[Joeyjojo]

4 hours ago, ATGroom said:

I don't know anything really about NCs - for those who know more, do NCs go to any effort with anti-counterfeiting measures?

I.e., Cubans have microprinted holograms on seals and some bands, UV fluorescent ink on seals and some bands, unique serial numbers on each box linked back to a central database that consumers can check. Do NCs do any of this stuff? Or any other measures? 

The only security measure I've seen on NC are the serial numbers on high end Padrons.

Even then, I'm not sure if it's because they are regularly counterfeited, or if they want to give off the vibe they are so good/popular they may be counterfeited.

[djrey]

Here in the US I have seen zero. I'm sure higher end stuff like some models of Opus and Padron get some fakes but likely not to a high degree. My favorite is when brands such as warped started to come out with QR code anti counterfeit technology. I think he likes to think of his cigars as top end Cohiba's sometimes. One of the things that put me off that brand. A lot of perceived arrogance.

Regardless, at the end of the day I don't think anyone cares to counterfeit NC because the culture is so different. NC cigars are for the most part seen as a smoking cigar. There is very little romance attached to it. CC have a storied history and are seen as luxury items consumed by the elite. This gets people (even non smokers) excited and helps drive the market. Much easier (and lucrative) to shove counterfeit product into a market like that than the NC industry.

[BrightonCorgi]

16 hours ago, Joeyjojo said:

I've never seen one, and too be honest, couldn't see why anyone would fake them since they are cheap(ish) and plentiful in most of the US and the local Latin American people who make them are well enough compensated not to bother.

The premium NC cigars cost the same as Habanos. 

This is a very interesting topic and an emerging market like fake Bourbon 10-15 years ago.  Since there is little policing for counterfeit NC cigars, this should be an easy lay up for anyone who'd engage in this activity.  I bet the scale is much larger and more have smoked counterfeit NC's than they have realized.  It's not like counterfeiter's don't access to similar tobacco and rollers.  They don't have to pay for advertising.  Counterfeiters get that investment for free.

[djrey]

Another interesting aspect to consider is the lack of a standard in the CC world compared to NC. Think about a Padron 1926. Every single one looks just about the same. The stock on the shelves right now look identical to that of say 2010. A dark toothy and dusty wrapper. I cant think of one other brand in the world that has a wrapper that is very close to that of a Padron 1964 or 26. Now look at a box of (insert Cuban brand). The shade, texture, oil etc varies wildly. Give me a light wrapper Padron and a flag goes up. Light colored Cohiba? Dark colored Cohiba, Reddish? So what. All could be authentic. 

Compliment that with the "Cuba being Cuba" theory and you can screw up all kinds of details and nobody would bat an eye in the CC community. I have a box of H Upmann "Maguum 46's" according to the band. Didn't raise a flag. If I got a box of Padoon 1926's  sirens would be going off. 

My point is that faking a CC would be much easier. 

[SCgarman]

Padron anniversary series cigars have obviously been faked in the past. This is the reason for the 2 piece cigar band, one piece having it's own issued "serial number" on it to help combat counterfeits.

 

[ATGroom]

Thinking about this thread I went and had a look at a couple of the sites of a well known ring of Chinese made fake retailers to see if they had any NC offering.

They don't, but I notice that they are now selling Quintero, JLP, and Vegueros.

One of the tests of whether a site was fake or not has always been whether they carried the cheap stuff. Most didn't, presumably because the effort required to make a $500 box of Cohiba is only marginally greater than the effort for a $50 box of JLP. Appears that they now feel it's an effort worth making. I guess fakers have offcuts that need to go somewhere as well.

If they bother to make JLP then I am totally convinced that they would be making at least the globally known NC brands like Davidoff as well. No evidence for it, but it just seems illogical that they wouldn't be.

 

[mprach024]

Never seen one.  What a waste of time that would be.  That’s like selling knock off Fossill watches.

[Bijan]

7 hours ago, ATGroom said:

Thinking about this thread I went and had a look at a couple of the sites of a well known ring of Chinese made fake retailers to see if they had any NC offering.

They don't, but I notice that they are now selling Quintero, JLP, and Vegueros.

One of the tests of whether a site was fake or not has always been whether they carried the cheap stuff.

Now that you mention it, I can't remember the last time I saw Quintero, JLP or Vegueros on FOH/24:24 🤔

[cigcars]

       *I remember an article on this subject some years ago in one of our prime cigar publications...and they actually had Cusano cigars as one of the samples of non-Cuban counterfeits - !!  CUSANO! You know, the ones who have orange and black cigar bands with the white dots on their below El Producto quality smokes mimicking our Cohiba. I did admit amazement that this brand would be used as an example of a highly desired NC's.  I was looking for Fuente Fuente Opus X's, Padron 45th Family Anniversary, etc. How many outside our aficionado realm have even HEARD of Cusano's stuff, let alone actually covet one!???  

[ha_banos]

23 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Now that you mention it, I can't remember the last time I saw Quintero, JLP or Vegueros on FOH/24:24 🤔

You'd think the store would be flush with these! But with the recent supply and stock shortages, problems in Cuba, demand and everyone's bloody flush with cash by the look of things! The tobacco is going into Siglo VI and BHK. 😁

[JohnnyO]

On 11/9/2021 at 10:31 PM, ATGroom said:

I don't know anything really about NCs - for those who know more, do NCs go to any effort with anti-counterfeiting measures?

I.e., Cubans have microprinted holograms on seals and some bands, UV fluorescent ink on seals and some bands, unique serial numbers on each box linked back to a central database that consumers can check. Do NCs do any of this stuff? Or any other measures? 

Fuente had a container full of cigars stolen out of the port of Miami a few years ago and from what I remember none of it was ever recovered. They had low end cigars like Rothchilds as well as Opus on board and lost it all. Least they could have done was put a few GPS locators in the master cases. John

[DaBoot]

Most people buy these NC sticks at a local B&M or online vendor.ie: a trusted source.  So hard to counterfeit ( where to sell )
 I’ve had some house sticks stateside  that could pass as padron anniversary, and fuente. I thought were great smokes for a fraction of the price. So it’s more than possible 

 

[BrightonCorgi]

Just think of all the mom and pop convenience stores that have decent cigar selection.  Virtually all singles sales.  Not fancy stores catering high end consumers.  Why not sell some fakes cigars?  Liquor stores are selling counterfeit booze...  Virtually none of their consumers would know the difference if they had a fake NC either way.

[DaBoot]

3 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Liquor stores are selling counterfeit booze... 

You mean my popov vodka is fake…. 😥

[Bijan]

12 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Just think of all the mom and pop convenience stores that have decent cigar selection.  Virtually all singles sales.  Not fancy stores catering high end consumers.  Why not sell some fakes cigars?  Liquor stores are selling counterfeit booze...  Virtually none of their consumers would know the difference if they had a fake NC either way.

Also storage is so bad some of these places that the cigars are practically unsmokeable anyways.