Will HSA ever have a non-Cuban managerial/quality control influence again? i.e Davidoff, Dunhill

[99call]

@El Presidente Made this comment on another thread about production control on R&J Exhibition no 4

"Now in Cuba I could do it.  10 rollers in pairs, 30,000 cigars a month. 1/2 the team  just does wrapper and half just does blend. One supervisor to ensure the blend is right every time. No excuses. 

That is how you guarantee quality and blend integrity week after week, year after year"

I obviously appreciate the political situation makes this possibility incredibly unlikely, but that said, the Davidoff years obviously happened post embargo, and there some unusual glimmers of a softening with regards to general foreign interaction,  a British royal visit in 2019 etc. 

My question is this,  with the most recent golden periods of production both having a European involvement of quality control/marketing i.e Alfred Dunhill, and Zino Davidoff.           

Will HSA ever be open again to foreign involvement on quality control/marketing? 

I of course realise the RE programme has had a great deal of input from regional merchants, and stockists, but I more referring to control or a marca, as opposed to a bit part role in a specific release

[99call]

My own thoughts on this, is that it's very very unlikely, but.......but I think money talks, and HSA can not be blind to the successes of Max Gutmann and the Dantes releases, and the allowances they made there. 

My thoughts would be, is that it couldn't be anything that upset the golden goose i.e Cohiba.   Maybe it could be a curation/involvement with Behike, and almost seeing that as an offshoot brand,  similar to Dunhills higher tier of Seleccion Suprema?     who know it's an interesting thought experiment

[NSXCIGAR]

I don't think Davidoff, Dunhill or Fox had much control of anything in the strict sense. I'm sure they made Cuba aware of the standards they expected but Cubatabaco ran things their way, hence the story (which may be apocryphal) of Davidoff destroying thousands of boxes they deemed sub-par and subsequently ending their deal. 

As far as I'm aware virtually all of the Dunhill and Fox selections were essentially regular production boxed or banded for them, and of course conforming to EMS standards--whatever they were at the time. 

I don't believe the regime would allow anyone but loyalists to control tobacco production. It's specifically why HSA and Tabacuba are separated. Marketing and distribution, sure. Production, no way. 

[99call]

10 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

and of course conforming to EMS standards--whatever they were at the time. 

I modern day use of EMS seems completely meaningless, but personally I do buy into the idea that prestigeous contracts with Fox and Dunhill were supplied with the cream of the crop,  that might still of course be regular production,   but like with any discerning clientele, I think their is the added pressure to 'keep them sweet'.   A bit like a head chef on the pass in a restaurant, the higher their personal standards,  the less likely you are to put up something you know is going to get knocked back. 

[Nino]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I don't believe the regime would allow anyone but loyalists to control tobacco production. It's specifically why HSA and Tabacuba are separated. Marketing and distribution, sure. Production, no way. 

^^ This - forever until there is not just regime change but more important : system change.

[El Presidente]

I think you will find that Fox and others had factories tender for their contracts/production. Andy can probably fill us in more. 

The Cuban system is not set up for outsiders. There is too much going on 

It doesn't matter whether it is a hotel, bar,  foundry or a cigar factory, people are doing what they need to do to make a living. 

Remember that it was only a decade ago that VP HSA was running Habanos B on the side. 

QC outsiders involved?

 

 

 

[99call]

15 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

QC outsiders involved?

Whats your thoughts on the creation of the Monty Dantes releases.  Is there not some degree of inherent critique in what was achieved.  i.e. "this is Montecristo......but better" .    How far can regional suppliers push the envelope with regionals.   Is it literally just being able to give a size, and box design, and choosing between two different pre arranged blends?.   

 If these collaborations become more and more lucrative (for HSA), as a correlation of the increased involvement of outsiders ideas/suggestions,  and money. i.e Monty Dantes.   how does that work?   I.e. if everything that Max Gutmann did, was just golden, every suggestion of creative control made more and more money.     Is there a point HSA steps away from a great success, as it sort of makes them (by comparison) look cack handed and unprofessional? i.e it takes someone from outside to show them how it's done

[juri]

i'm still holding out hope for science, they can already grow grapes in a lab to match any wines 'Terroir' (soil, temperature, air, climate, topography, sun/shade, humidity) perfectly recreating a crops natural habitat and making exact replicas of some of the best wines on earth

tobacco would benefit in the same ways it just takes the desire or money to make them, maybe once the tech gets cheap enough... hell they can already 3D print food pizza steak cake sushi haha (doubt ill try any of those any time soon) but you never know 😜

[Cigar Surgeon]

My dream is Cuban cigar and tobacco production with NC standards and factory procedures. The cigars would be so consistently brilliant. 

[MrBirdman]

15 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

My dream is Cuban cigar and tobacco production with NC standards and factory procedures. The cigars would be so consistently brilliant. 

The reserva program might offer a glimpse of what Cuba would be capable of, especially considering its aging regimes are essentially de rigeur for NC. 

[Puros Y Vino]

1 hour ago, MrBirdman said:

The reserva program might offer a glimpse of what Cuba would be capable of, especially considering its aging regimes are essentially de rigeur for NC. 

It pretty much copies what NC makers are doing. In particular Padron. Age the selected leaf for N years, then roll.  The Reserva and Gran Reserva follows that methodology.  TBH, I'd prefer to see fully rolled cigars aged, socked away and released vs this method. Though this method has yielded the excellent CGR.  The MGR, PGR and RYJWCGR(whew!) did not stand out as much as the CGR IMO.  I did witness a friend get two plugged Hoyo DC GR's in the same evening.  That is criminal IMO.  I do like what H&F did with the RA 225 RE.  The ANejados program could have gone this way, but those initial releases didn't match anything in the portfolio at the time. With the RyJ Churchill, that's a step in the right direction. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

8 minutes ago, Puros Y Vino said:

It pretty much copies what NC makers are doing. In particular Padron. Age the selected leaf for N years, then roll.  The Reserva and Gran Reserva follows that methodology.  TBH, I'd prefer to see fully rolled cigars aged, socked away and released vs this method. Though this method has yielded the excellent CGR.  The MGR, PGR and RYJWCGR(whew!) did not stand out as much as the CGR IMO.  I did witness a friend get two plugged Hoyo DC GR's in the same evening.  That is criminal IMO.  I do like what H&F did with the RA 225 RE.  The ANejados program could have gone this way, but those initial releases didn't match anything in the portfolio at the time. With the RyJ Churchill, that's a step in the right direction. 

I still think the NC two pair system is more consistent quality wise, and also gives you far better rolling output in a day. 

[Puros Y Vino]

35 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

I still think the NC two pair system is more consistent quality wise, and also gives you far better rolling output in a day. 

Please expand on this system. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

1 hour ago, Puros Y Vino said:

Please expand on this system. 

So as a broad description of the NC system:

Cigar rollers work in pairs, with a bunchero and a rolero. Most factories I've seen the pair goes and gets their tobacco allotment for the morning, and then the afternoon. In many cases they have no idea what the actual release name of the cigar is that they're rolling, they just know what the size is and the various codes of tobacco they are supposed to be using and in what proportions. Presumably they also know what it's supposed to taste like, as most NC factories encourage them to smoke throughout the day as a way of self-QC'ing as well as being consistent in the way the leaf is being used. If you have leaf leftover at the end of the day, that probably means you haven't used it in the correct proportions. 

The bunchero, most often but not always a man, creates the bunch and is responsible for the process up to and including the bunch going into a mold and into the press. The rolero, most often but not always a woman, provides QC once it comes out of the press and in many cases can reject that bunch and have them redo it. The explanation I've received at factories is that women are more dexterous than men and as a result you have less loss in wrappers, which are of course the most expensive tobacco leaf in the entire process.

Additionally most factories will only pay based on cigars that have passed QC'd, not just rolled. So there's a financial incentive in making sure the cigar is rolled properly. 

By working together, the pair get very efficient and also serve as a quality check and balance to keep the final product from being rejected by the dreaded QC man who walks the factory floor.

In the system above, there are inherent quality checks built into the system from the amount of tobacco that is provided, and left over, to a second pair of eyes confirming that all of the steps are being followed.

Edit: One thing to add is that pairs end up working so efficiently together that if one of them decides to go work at another factory they will often go together. 

[Juliano88]

You cannot replicate the Vuelta Abajo soil and the beautiful iron and nickel deposits of the land and the aroma of the tobacco. But I wish someone like Don Pepin or Henke Kelner had access to cuban tobacco and to be able to produce a cigar that would go through their quality control process. 

[Ryan]

Zino Davidoff said he had a hand in the blend and QC of the cigars made in his name in the 1960s anyway. I'm not sure how much direct involvement he had after that.

Dunhill, I'm not sure if he ever visited Cuba. I honestly don't know.

The current Fox's grandfather, Freddie Fox, visited Cuba many times in the 1940s and 50s. He knew Ramón Cifuentes quite well and their wives became friends.

There is no doubt that the cigars that JJ Fox got from Cuba from the 1940s until 1991 (Partagas and Por Larranaga Fox Exclusives, Punch Nectares etc) were good quality tobacco. 

However, how much input there was in the blending or quality control from 1959 ( or 1961 or 1962) on, I'm not sure. There were some visits by Ron Fox (Freddie's son) in the 1980s and 90s. I'm sure he was shown around, but whether he was sat down and given samples A - D and asked which blend he wanted for his order, I think I'd be surprised.

Brand, size, packaging and strength were more important selling points of cigars until 20 or 30 years ago, rather than a search for specific flavours. Consistency (draw etc.) was not really an issue until the late 90s.

Some distributors now, eg. Hunters and Phoenicia, appear to have involvement in the blend of their regionals. There are videos. I don't really know how meaningful that is. 

Whenever there is an Irish Regional approved, I aim to find out..

I think consistency is a double edged sword. While it would be nice to have fewer plugged cigars (though I haven't had many of those recently anyway), non-Cuban cigars are very consistent. And (for many smokers of Cuban cigars) boring.

I'm not sure how consistent a natural product can be from year to year when it is made form a plant that grows (and experiences whatever weather conditions may happen) for just three months before harvesting. There is no rootstock to provide plant consistency from year to year. As we know, different strains are planted year to year depending on the long range weather forecasts, mould conditions etc.

Wines (where consistency/uniformity is important), whiskies and brandies can be blended from many constituents to achieve consistency from year to year, sometimes dozens. I'm not sure if there are enough leaves going into a cigar to be able to tweak a blend to that level. Thinner cigars may have a filler made from no more than two individual leaves. 

I think there should be variation, in flavour and performance at least. More conformity could probably be achieved in draw.

[NSXCIGAR]

15 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

My dream is Cuban cigar and tobacco production with NC standards and factory procedures. The cigars would be so consistently brilliant. 

That will only be the result of privatization. 

16 hours ago, juri said:

i'm still holding out hope for science, they can already grow grapes in a lab to match any wines 'Terroir'

I'm sure it could be done but not on any large or commercial scale. That would be quite a large lab...

17 hours ago, 99call said:

Whats your thoughts on the creation of the Monty Dantes releases. 

Ultimately, these are creations of HSA/Tabacuba. Certainly may have been inspired by or suggested by Gutmann with him approving or suggesting the final blend (as is the case with many ERs) but Gutmann (and all distributors) are at the mercy of Tabacuba/HSA. Tabacuba decides what leaf gets allocated for everything. The ER suggestion still has to be approved by HSA and they ultimately have full control. If the cigar turns out to be a dud, the distributor is burnt, at least for the first run as ERs tend to roll out in staggered batches so perhaps a problem can be caught relatively early but everything's prepaid by the distributor, so HSA has their money already. As we know, not all ERs are winners. Some are rather pedestrian.

As far as creating a unique brand, that's certainly a big ask and a huge compliment to the distributor. I would love to know the details about where the leaf came from for the ED and La Escepcion brands. Super high quality leaf with a new and distinct profile. And where did it go? Will we ever see either one again? 

[BrightonCorgi]

If an outsider could bring consistency to Cuban cigars; Dunhill and Davidoff would still be there. 

[juri]

10 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I'm sure it could be done but not on any large or commercial scale. That would be quite a large lab...

yeah it probably won't happen any time soon but once someone figures out the formula and cost effective way to do it on a bigger scale it won't be as hard as you think its basically an advanced greenhouse assisted by AI

right now its in the lab stage because its all new but once you have the tech and materials all you need is a warehouse you could setup literally anywhere, hell you could setup in alaska or china lol

just think no more bad season because to much rain or not enough always the perfect growing conditions and room to experiment. they could also work it like a a farm and sell the tobacco to other companies , the day is also coming where you will have AI machine that replace the rollers for better CC

[NSXCIGAR]

10 minutes ago, juri said:

all you need is a warehouse you could setup literally anywhere,

Re-creating the soil, temp, humidity, light and watering inside a warehouse for thousands of tobacco plants is really not feasible. The energy use just to generate that much light...you'd end up with a cost to produce one cigar of $100.

And then you need to have curing facilities next door. 

I would love to see someone try it on a small scale though. 

[juri]

34 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Re-creating the soil, temp, humidity, light and watering inside a warehouse for thousands of tobacco plants is really not feasible. The energy use just to generate that much light...you'd end up with a cost to produce one cigar of $100.

And then you need to have curing facilities next door. 

I would love to see someone try it on a small scale though. 

well it would need a greenhouse ceiling to let the sun in so that would count out any places where you have limited sunlight it would need to be a specially made building to setup to soil and water/drainage , outside of that it would be cured and worked like a normal farm the power bills will be higher for sure to keep the grow rooms at the right temp humidity ect 

getting the water might be a bit tricky the roof and other things to catch the rain water and store in would also have to be set up specially also a way to control the amount of sun that gets in and sensors to make adjustments 

i could see altadis or any of the other big NC players try this on a small scale in the next 20ish years at least

[BrightonCorgi]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Re-creating the soil, temp, humidity, light and watering inside a warehouse for thousands of tobacco plants is really not feasible. The energy use just to generate that much light...you'd end up with a cost to produce one cigar of $100.

And then you need to have curing facilities next door. 

I would love to see someone try it on a small scale though. 

A friend runs a marijuana growing facility.   I think it's around 30K sq ft.  The electric bill is 150K+ USD a month.

[KCCubano]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:19 AM, Cigar Surgeon said:

My dream is Cuban cigar and tobacco production with NC standards and factory procedures. The cigars would be so consistently brilliant. 

Had same dream for 20 yrs...wake up and same old. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

A friend runs a marijuana growing facility.   I think it's around 30K sq ft.  The electric bill is 150K+ USD a month.

What's his revenue per month though? 

[BrightonCorgi]

3 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

What's his revenue per month though? 

The wholesale business is very successful.  Granted I think the investment was around 25 million.  The way it works is wholesale has high profit margin and retail breaks even.  The dispensaries are meant not to make a profit.  Tax rates on a growing/wholesale and retail are quite different.  😉