Laguito No. 1, 2, 3 vitolas history question

[Bijan]

Looking at Lagutio No. 1, 2 and 3 cigars, there were three Laguito number 3 cigars from pre-1960s (ERDM Senoritas, PL Eduardos, RG Cigarritos) according to CCW. Also according to CCW one Laguito number 2 cigar from pre 1960s in the Hoyo Odeon complete with pigtail:

Cigar Name Vitola de Salida	Factory Name Vitola de Galera	Size Ring x mm	Shape Common Name	Image Relative Scale
Cohiba Panetelas  1967	Laguito No.3	26 x 115 (4½″)	Small Panetela
Davidoff Ambassadrice  1969 - Discontinued 1991	Laguito No.3	26 x 115 (4½″)	Small Panetela
El Rey del Mundo Señoritas  pre-1960 - Discontinued 1980s	Laguito No.3	26 x 115 (4½″)	Small Panetela
Montecristo Joyitas  1969	Laguito No.3	26 x 115 (4½″)	Small Panetela
Por Larrañaga Eduardos  pre-1960 - Discontinued c1980s	Laguito No.3	26 x 115 (4½″)	Small Panetela
Rafael González Cigarritos  pre-1960 - Discontinued 2010	Laguito No.3	26 x 115 (4½″)	Small Panetela
Cohiba Coronas Especiales  1967	Laguito No.2	38 x 152 (6″)	Panetela
Davidoff No.2  1969 - Discontinued 1991	Laguito No.2	38 x 152 (6″)	Panetela
Davidoff Tubos  1969 - Discontinued 1991	Laguito No.2	38 x 152 (6″)	Panetela
Diplomáticos Diplomáticos No.7  1976 - Discontinued early-1980s	Laguito No.2	38 x 152 (6″)	Panetela
Hoyo de Monterrey Le Hoyo de Dauphin  1969 - Discontinued 2003	Laguito No.2	38 x 152 (6″)	Panetela
Hoyo de Monterrey Odeon  pre-1960 - Discontinued 1980s	Laguito No.2	38 x 152 (6″)	Panetela
Montecristo Montecristo Especiales No.2  1969	Laguito No.2	38 x 152 (6″)	Panetela
Siboney Especiales  c1988 - Discontinued 1996	Laguito No.2	38 x 152 (6″)	Panetela
Vegueros Especiales No.2  1997 - Discontinued 2010	Laguito No.2	38 x 152 (6″)	Panetela
Cohiba Lanceros  1964	Laguito No.1	38 x 192 (7½″)	Long Panetela
Davidoff No.1  1969 - Discontinued 1991	Laguito No.1	38 x 192 (7½″)	Long Panetela
Diplomáticos Diplomáticos No.6  1976 - Discontinued early-1980s	Laguito No.1	38 x 192 (7½″)	Long Panetela
Montecristo Montecristo Especial  1969	Laguito No.1	38 x 192 (7½″)	Long Panetela
Vegueros Especiales No.1  1997 - Discontinued 2010	Laguito No.1	38 x 192 (7½″)	Long Panetela

Doesn't seem there was a Lagutio No. 1 cigar from before the Cohiba Lancero though.

My question is were these vitolas called something else before the establishment of Cohiba and El Laguito as a factory or is El Laguito named after the vitola?

And did the pigtail always exist on the Odeon or did that come after the Cohiba Lanceros and Coronas Especiales?

My guess is the Laguito 3 and 2 were named something else and then got renamed after the 3 original Cohiba vitolas. Anyways that's my guess. Kind of weird not to have any Laguito No. 1 pre-1960s cigars, or any that survived the revolution but no. 2 and no. 3 if the terminology existed before.

[Nino]

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

My question is were these vitolas called something else before the establishment of Cohiba and El Laguito as a factory or is El Laguito named after the vitola?

My guess is the Laguito 3 and 2 were named something else and then got renamed after the 3 original Cohiba vitolas. Anyways that's my guess. Kind of weird not to have any Laguito No. 1 pre-1960s cigars, or any that survived the revolution but no. 2 and no. 3 if the terminology existed before.

Honestly, no idea but : those Vitolas were certainly not called Laguito BEFORE Cohiba or El Laguito were established, most likely just Panatelas ( just guessing here ).

Correct on your guess IMHO.

[CaptainQuintero]

Can you imagine how a Diplomatico no.7 would go down nowadays? In the same vein as the Reino Unido ERDM it would just rocket

 I mean unbanded in a plain SLB it would too but, the potential there is nuts

[JohnnyO]

Cohiba wasn't available commercially until '82 in Spain and world wide until '89. The commercial Cohiba line replaced Davidoff in '91-'92 and many of its cigars, once they relocated to the DR. Siglo I-Chateau Haute Brion, Siglo II-Chateau Margaux, Siglo III-Chateau Mouton-Rothschild, Siglo IV-5000, Laguito No 3-Panetelas were the counterparts. The Siglo V, VI was Cohibas creation. The Davidoff lines were from the late 60's, some 70's and into the '83 (Siglo IV) none with pigtails like the Cohiba line. The Davidoff Classic No 1 was the cigar being produced in El Laguito in the late 60's prior to the Laguito No 1. Laguito No 1 was given to Fidel by his top bodyguard. It became his favorite and one he liked to hand out. John

[Bijan]

Thanks @JohnnyO. That helps narrow it down. It seems according to Wikipedia and CCW Davidoff no. 1 and 2 started being produced/sold in 1968-1969, produced at El Laguito. Whereas Cohiba seems to be established for non commercial reasons between 1964 and 1966 with a formal launch in 1968 again also for non commercial purposes.

[99call]

2 hours ago, Bijan said:

Looking at Lagutio No. 1, 2 and 3 cigars

Looking at your list it's interesting that at least 3 of the brands mentioned referred to the Vitola as 'Especial'.  To me it seems pretty obvious the Cohiba cigars were named after the place, and that subsequently these things imprint themselves upon cigar culture for a certain period of time.   For example 'Churchill' and 'Lonsdale' are normal vitola names within 'our' time.  but in 400yrs,  they may just be seen as 'blips', on the basis of 2 peoples names .   Winston Churchill, and Lord Lonsdale respectively. 

[JohnnyO]

The MC line; Especial, Especial No 2 and other similar vitolas mentioned were 1st produced around that time frame '69-'71. The Davidoffs initially were the same blend as the Cohiba line but with lighter wrappers. Zino Davidoff supposedly set fire to a barn full of Classic No 1's in 1991 as he felt the quality was suffering too much.  John

[Bijan]

29 minutes ago, JohnnyO said:

The Davidoffs initially were the same blend as the Cohiba line but with lighter wrappers.

Probably explains why the Cohibas weren't commercialized until much later, since the 3 original Cohiba cigars (Lanceros, Coronas Especiales and Panetelas) overlapped with Davidoff cigars (No. 1, No. 2, ambassadrice), and if they were even the same blend, then even less point to compete.

Looks like the Davidoff No.1 and No.2 had pigtails at least at some point:

https://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/brand/davidoff#no1

https://halfwheel.com/davidoff-no-1/216979/

[ATGroom]

The factory names were not standardised across the factories until 1980, so in the early years anything that existed pre-1960 would have been called by whatever that factory's naming scheme was, but not Laguito No.3.

The records, be they factory, catalogue etc, get spottier the further you go back, so "pre-1960" may have been a best guess for the PL Eduardos and RG Cigaritos. It is possible that CCW is incorrect and they were actually released later than that.

For the PL Eduardo, the MRN book is the source that specifies the size as a Laguito No.3. Not sure where he got this information from, but he is usually pretty fastidious about checking and double checking everything. The 1972 Spanish market catalogue which I have on my site is the earliest reference I can find to the cigar, and has it as a 20 x 109.

I think the most likely explanation is that the cigar was made in the smaller size in the old days, and then had a resize into Laguito No.3 when the factory vitolas were standardised in the 1980.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, ATGroom said:

The records, be they factory, catalogue etc, get spottier the further you go back, so "pre-1960" may have been a best guess for the PL Eduardos and RG Cigaritos. It is possible that CCW is incorrect and they were actually released later than that.

Nowhere does MRN state that the PL Eduardos, RG Cigaritos or Hoyo Odeon existed pre-1960. These could all have been introduced after 1960.

In the case of the PL Eduardos. MRN notes its extreme rarity. Typically, this indicates a cigar that maybe had an initial release but disappeared or a cigar that only existed on paper. 

The RG Cigaritos is a cigar MRN says he is very familiar with and likes a lot. Obviously this was produced continuously for many years, although it appears to be in limited quantities. I've never seen any in the wild but it was likely somewhat unpopular.

The Hoyo Odeon is more interesting. Again, this is a cigar that may not have existed pre-1960. The Laguito No. 2 Le Hoyo de Dauphin was introduced in 1969. They probably wouldn't have introduced the Odeon with the Dauphin also in production, although they might have. But according to MRN the Odeon was cut in the 1980s. As we know, this simply means officially cut. These may have been gone well before that or even never produced. It may have existed for only a few years until the 1969 release of the Dauphin until officially cut in the 1980s. As we know, many cigars existed only on paper for many years before being cut in the 1970s or 1980s. I've only seen one real life example of Monte 6/7 from right around 1980. These are listed as being cut in 1998! Clearly, these were long gone well before 1998. (As a side note, the person who had some Monte 6/7 got them from his father who had acquired them in Cuba in 1980. These may have only had an initial release on the island and never exported. They're about as rare as it gets. I've seen more original Boli Gold Medal than Monte 6/7.)

It seems no Laguito vitolas can be shown to have actually existed prior to 1960, and obviously the name indicates they would have originated at El Laguito which wasn't officially rolling cigars until at least 1960. 

 

[mprach024]

I have zero to add with you history buffs and search specialists, only that Lord Lonsdale is the best name in cigar history.

[Markspring1978]

1 hour ago, mprach024 said:

I have zero to add with you history buffs and search specialists, only that Lord Lonsdale is the best name in cigar history.

Agreed. 

I think I’ll have my wife start to refer to me as Lord Lonsdale. 

[mprach024]

45 minutes ago, Markspring1978 said:

Agreed. 

I think I’ll have my wife start to refer to me as Lord Lonsdale. 

Right!  ???

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

Can you imagine how a Diplomatico no.7 would go down nowadays?

As I mentioned, it seems Monte 6 & 7 never even got off the ground in 1980. Preferences were already changing. The Robustos really weren't popular at all until the mid-70s and by the mid-80s they were all the rage. 

Cigars like the MdO 1-3 were never that popular after the 70s. True long skinnies had been disappearing for a long time. Cigars like the Hoyo Versailles and Ninfas were gone long before they were officially cut. 

I can't recall seeing many PLMC until it was essentially re-released as a HM in 2002. As noted by MRN the PL Eduardos may not even have ever existed, and the RG Cigaritos were hard to come by. I'm actually quite shocked that the Cohiba Panetelas are still in production. I know Cohiba doesn't cut much, but they did cut the the Coronas. I just can't imagine how low the Panetelas sales are with the Exquisitos also being offered. It can't do well. 

[Bijan]

57 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I just can't imagine how low the Panetelas sales are with the Exquisitos also being offered. It can't do well. 

I think as the cheapest Cohiba they sell some. Even though it's bad value vs the Siglo 1 and Exquisitos.

I've been tracking one vendor that has them on sale semi-permanently now, since they have so many in stock. They've sold something like 50+ boxes in the past month and a bit.

I think Montecristo Joyitas are probably hurting even more, as those probably cost more than Monte 5s or as much as Monte 4s when those are on sale. I'm going to track that now out of curiosity. They have about 100 boxes in stock right now at 75% of the price of the Cohiba Panetelas...

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

I think as the cheapest Cohiba they sell some. Even though it's bad value vs the Siglo 1 and Exquisitos.

I've been tracking one vendor that has them on sale semi-permanently now, since they have so many in stock. They've sold something like 50+ boxes in the past month and a bit.

I think Montecristo Joyitas are probably hurting even more, as those probably cost more than Monte 5s or as much as Monte 4s when those are on sale. I'm going to track that now out of curiosity. They have about 100 boxes in stock right now at 75% of the price of the Cohiba Panetelas...

It is the cheapest, but not by much. The Exquisitos are always pretty close to it and much larger. I think the Exquisitos are probably the better value. I remember I used to buy Exquisitos all the time in the mid-late 2000s when they were about $160/box. Seemed like the Siglos were kind of struggling around then but the Linea Clasicas always delivered. Now it's priced way out of line for me. How they're more than Siglo I is baffling. 

The Joyitas do have a following and the price isn't too bad. You can usually find them around $100 which is certainly cheaper than Monte 5. But there's nothing close to it like the Exquisitos/Panetelas. Fun fact: I've never had a Joyitas. 

 

[Bijan]

@NSXCIGAR

Exquisitos are about the same price as Siglo I (more or less depending on vendor).  Smoke time is probably similar as they're longer though skinnier. Linea clasica has a certain premium over the Siglo line too. If you thought $160 was reasonable 15 years ago I don't see 70% more than that now (current prices) as unreasonable given Cohiba price increases.

I've not seen joyitas that low recently the general price matching the regular price for Monte 5. I think sale price and regular price for these two vitolas match pretty closely and make the joyitas a bad deal at present.

I've had two joyitas and two panetelas. I think the panetelas were better but probably need to try more to say for sure.

Oh and one thing that makes joyitas even more unattractive is that Montecristo puritos are a fraction of the cost and basically the same size (larger RG in fact). Yes machine made, short filler but in this diminutive form factor that's not that big a deal. Cohiba doesn't have a chicos/puritos machine made counterpart the short being much shorter, the club being much skinnier, shorter.

[Bijan]

On 2/2/2021 at 12:56 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

The Joyitas do have a following and the price isn't too bad. You can usually find them around $100 which is certainly cheaper than Monte 5. But there's nothing close to it like the Exquisitos/Panetelas. Fun fact: I've never had a Joyitas. 

The vendor I was tracking moved the price of the Joyitas closer to that $100 level, and they seem to be flying off the shelves. So I think you are right.

[Bijan]

Seems the PL Eduardos and El Rey del Mundo Senoritas did exist in the 1970s just not sure if they existed pre-1960s:

https://www.onlinecigarauctions.com/sold_lot_info.php?products_id=7320

https://www.onlinecigarauctions.com/sold_lot_info.php?products_id=8026

Cigarritos existed too, but there was less doubt of that:

https://www.onlinecigarauctions.com/sold_lot_info.php?products_id=8947

(Unfortunately the Hoyo Odeon was nowhere to be found)