Mininum Humidity Before Cigar Damage?

[LGC]

The FACT is that all procedures and techniques posted by anyone in the world regarding storage are simply OPINIONS(no matter how long they’ve been smoking, no matter how many cigars they have, no matter how many dunhills they’ve smoked, no matter how many friends they have in the industry, no matter how many times they’ve been to El Laguito, etc., etc). Nobody will ever take the time to perform valid, scientific experiments where the ambient WATER CONTENT is the only variable in the experiment... and ALL other controls are properly handled. Anyone want to volunteer to take a box of cigars (assuming that every single stick in the box is of an identical blend)... split them up into identical humidors with identical air exchanges (where water content is the ONLY variable)... let them sit for several years... re-acclimate them for several months in identical conditions... then perform a BLIND vertical tasting with a large sample size?? I would advise everyone to experiment with storage practices and procedures before drawing conclusions, rather than simply taking someone’s OPINION as absolute truth and gospel. If we all assume that everything in life is correct simply because “experts” have been doing it a certain way for a long time, how are we to advance? As I like to keep in mind... it’s okay to take cigars seriously... but it’s not ok to take oneself too seriously...

 

 

 

[clickbangdoh]

On 2/15/2019 at 11:48 PM, LonesomeHabanoAficionado said:

I saw even NC people being gravitated to lower humidity (65) instead of 70% since it is too humid for their palettes in nowadays! Things getting changed real fast ?! I also agree that many B&Ms should stop recommending 70%!

Note. I still really upset that why local B&Ms in my country are still insisting on old 70% rule and traditional Spanish cedar humidor (tupperdor, coolidor and wineador are deserved to be widely used as they are way cheaper and yet more efficient than traditional ones)!

No joke, I have gone into walk in humidors where they had 3-4 room humidifiers spewing clouds of mist into the room. And, huh, will you look at that, so much "plume" on cigars closest to them...….

[CigSid]

Ok, I may have been a bit overzealous when I mentioned that it was a fact that too little moisture will ruin your cigars... please forgive me... What I meant was that in my experiences they were ruined for my taste. The point I was trying to make is... maybe... this new way of using lower humidity (with the temperature at 68 to 70 degrees) just... maybe... is not so good for your cigars long term. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and they are able to make choices for themselves. It is a fact “for me” and that’s what I meant.

 

[PigFish]

21 minutes ago, CigSid said:

Ok, I may have been a bit overzealous when I mentioned that it was a fact that too little moisture will ruin your cigars... please forgive me... What I meant was that in my experiences they were ruined for my taste. The point I was trying to make is... maybe... this new way of using lower humidity (with the temperature at 68 to 70 degrees) just... maybe... is not so good for your cigars long term. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and they are able to make choices for themselves. It is a fact “for me” and that’s what I meant.

 

... that being said, I would have never made my comment.

Without going into a tailspin, I take hundreds of questions about cigar storage, PMC, rH vs. temp. etc., typically from people who have read 'facts' about storage somewhere on the internet, and are now dealing with realtime, not potentially damaged cigars. Often mold... I actually, had a rather lengthy post summing up 'my' opinion to this position of fact.

I tip my hat to you sir! Thanks for the clarification and saving me from blowing up the thread with a diatribe separating one's beliefs from facts!

Few people will actually retract on a BB. Kudos to you!

Cheers! -Piggy

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

The FACT is that all procedures and techniques posted by anyone in the world regarding storage are simply OPINIONS(no matter how long they’ve been smoking, no matter how many cigars they have, no matter how many dunhills they’ve smoked, no matter how many friends they have in the industry, no matter how many times they’ve been to El Laguito, etc., etc). Nobody will ever take the time to perform valid, scientific experiments where the ambient WATER CONTENT is the only variable in the experiment... and ALL other controls are properly handled. Anyone want to volunteer to take a box of cigars (assuming that every single stick in the box is of an identical blend)... split them up into identical humidors with identical air exchanges (where water content is the ONLY variable)... let them sit for several years... re-acclimate them for several months in identical conditions... then perform a BLIND vertical tasting with a large sample size?? I would advise everyone to experiment with storage practices and procedures before drawing conclusions, rather than simply taking someone’s OPINION as absolute truth and gospel. If we all assume that everything in life is correct simply because “experts” have been doing it a certain way for a long time, how are we to advance? As I like to keep in mind... it’s okay to take cigars seriously... but it’s not ok to take oneself too seriously...

 

 

 

... Brandon my brother, I hope you are well. Wonderful post! I have been sitting on one largely the same tenor. -R

[Fugu]

As this topic pops up every once in a while and always tends to end up with strong polarization and camp-building, up to the point of personal feelings being hurt, let me just contribute this:

I've posted my share on various occasions, but in all these threads regarding the topic "cigar storage and aging", it always amazes me the amount of BOTLs voicing broad general statements of the casual kind "cigars are more forgiving than you think", "do whatever works for you", "don't overthink it" or simply "opinion" - to then finding that it often is these very folks reporting of cigars going "downhill" from year six on, or being "a shadow of their former self" after 10+ years of storage. Or not 'believing' in long-term aging at all....

The funny thing about it (for me) being the observation that statements like "cigars are highly forgiving" or "don't overthink it", "do what you see fit" never elicit objection. No, in fact they are the ones being applauded to. But - dare you stating the opposite and say "cigars demand a meticulous control of 'this' and 'that' condition" and you are faced with a shitstorm, demanding proof and verification, quotes of scientific literature etc. ... haha. Let's face it, one is as good as the other in its lack of proving.

Sure, everybody is entitled to do what they want to, in the end it's their cigars, but that's not the point. Still, some members feel obligated to share their personal knowledge and to educate. And were it just for the selfish reasoning that some future day they might see themselves taking aged stock from other members' hands..... Yes, some even want to be convincing and definite in their statements, and not just stating another bathos keeping it vague and innocuous in order to dodge any potential incoming bullet. Even if voiced in an "absolute" manner, I find nothing wrong about that, since it is always clear that it's their absolute truth. And I am grateful for their contributions and for having the cojones sticking their head out! And with all due respect - There is a wide difference between simple opinion and experience!

Smoking performance and taste is one thing - strongly personally driven (and an rH-statement can only be a proxy for tobacco moisture anyway, which is also dependent on a number of other factors). But there is no room whatsoever for personal opinion when it comes to optimal storage conditions for maturing and long-term preservation of cigars. We may not know it, or - to put it differently - there may not be consensus about it. But it is not a matter of 'opinion'.

The challenge is to find out. And that demands debate. Supporting or disproving the arguments and findings of others by means of (a wider) personal experience. There will probably never be a verification for it complying with scientific standards (and dare I say - neither needed). Still, there is a truth out there.

[Connoisseur Kim]

8 hours ago, clickbangdoh said:

No joke, I have gone into walk in humidors where they had 3-4 room humidifiers spewing clouds of mist into the room. And, huh, will you look at that, so much "plume" on cigars closest to them...….

Too high humidity detected! ????

[PapaDisco]

The OP's question was if there was a scientific basis that informed us of the effect of humidity/temperature on the evaporation of oils from cigars.  That would be an interesting chart to see. ?

 

[HopeUgood]

On 2/15/2019 at 6:26 PM, crking3 said:

I watched the pigfish video but I’m stilll scratching my head a little bit ...anyone with a better understanding please help me determine my moisture content ...thanks !


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Did you see @PigFish the chart linked by @JohnS?   That helped me a lot, I apologize if you already saw it.
 

 

[PigFish]

43 minutes ago, crking3 said:

Yea I still am not totally sure .....these discussions always leave me with more questions than they answer....very annoying .....just simply would like to know if 60rh and 65-70f falls into an acceptable moisture content according to the proponents of this chart lol


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I think you are looking for absolutes in a world of opinions. Today, i largely store my cigars in a very stable environments. Depending on the humidor, remember I make them and I have them ranging from about Generation 8 to 13, at 70F and about 60-62rH.

I am particular about the rH/Temp relationship. I can be! I can be because I can adjust it and keep it down to 0.1 on either scale. Like the rest of you I still settle for range and error. I don't make scientific grade test equipment, I make a box to store cigars in...

I don't now, nor have I ever made claims about aging... That is all speculation. The only speculation I make is based on materials and how they behave. The more you expand and contract them, like the skin of an airplane, the more they will fatigue and become prone to fail over time. That I do apply to cigars as well. I believe in the benefits of stability.

I store for my smoking pleasure. I don't believe in the tooth fairy! I store to smoke for today.

Air and water exchanges freely affect your cigars regardless of water content. The rate that water will transfer is based on temperature. I proffer that if there was anything to the 'decaying cigar model' it would be far more prevalent and something that could be charted like the decline in the quality of milk... If it cannot be proven, or at least substantially backed up with a lot of empirical evidence, I don't consider it relevant. That is a personal choice. 

I don't happen to believe that an oil shine on your cigar means a damn thing as far as flavor goes. I believe that to be more folklore and speculation, pushed by vendors to hype a product. Again, I am an outlier.

As always I say look for evidence before concluding. Live for the day, and be your own expert. Test, taste and experiment.

I can tell you this. By the nature of the equipment that I use and the experience that I have being able to control rH and temperature, stably, over long periods of time, time that can be documented and proven with data logs, I have some experience maybe one in 10,000 smokers actually have. I can randomly and whimsically change rH and temp with precision and stability. I share my experiences with people like you on the board. I share them for your edification and enjoyment. I would not do anything to purposely damage my cigars, nor yours. Yet I am still one guy on the net telling you what I do and don't prefer. My opinion is only as valuable as you wish it to be!

I hope that helps you!

-Piggy

[HopeUgood]

7 hours ago, crking3 said:

Yea I still am not totally sure .....these discussions always leave me with more questions than they answer....very annoying .....just simply would like to know if 60rh and 65-70f falls into an acceptable moisture content according to the proponents of this chart lol


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Sorry, when JohnS linked, it went straight to the chart on the third post from the bottom. That was my intention, the chart near the bottom.  Looks to me like 60rh and 65-70dF lands you right in-between 12-10% total moisture content.  Looks to be the green zone, and you are perfect there on the chart. I believe PigFish said the chart information is decades old, but looks like he keeps his cigars at 60-62rh and 70dF as well (if I read his reply correctly). 

[SocaWarrior]

Living in a very humid area (Louisiana), I have recently dropped to 58% and am finding that my cigars are smoking much better. 

At 62% I was still experiencing tunneling, even with a week of dry boxing. 

Temps are normally at 69F.

This has been my experience.

 

 

 

 

[aphexafx]

Ambient humidity is definitely a consideration to take into account when considering other people's experiences with cigars.  In my home in Denver right now the RH is 18%.  That is way too dry for a 58% RH conditioned cigar.  It would smoke like grocery sacks and the wrapper would readily flake and crack.  So up here, in our rarefied atmosphere, I find more success at 62-64% RH.  ?

Edit: For the thread, I store long term at 65% and 64dF.

[Lucass111]

So I'm curious as to why people are storing their cigars at a lower temperature when they are aging. I get the slightly higher RH but why do you guys store at a lower temp? I am currently aging some but I have mine around 68-70dF at around 65%. Just curious if I need to lower my temp?

[SCgarman]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 7:46 PM, SocaWarrior said:

Living in a very humid area (Louisiana), I have recently dropped to 58% and am finding that my cigars are smoking much better. 

At 62% I was still experiencing tunneling, even with a week of dry boxing. 

Temps are normally at 69F.

This has been my experience.

 

 

 

 

It is not humid all year around there is it? I would imagine the winter months are dry air?

[PigFish]

On 2/18/2019 at 4:46 PM, SocaWarrior said:

Living in a very humid area (Louisiana), I have recently dropped to 58% and am finding that my cigars are smoking much better. 

At 62% I was still experiencing tunneling, even with a week of dry boxing. 

Temps are normally at 69F.

This has been my experience.

 

 

 

 

If your cigars tunnel, you should look to blame Tabacuba! I hate to see all forms of folks take on the responsibility of the manufacturer and their defects and blame it on themselves.

Tunneling is caused by underfilling. It is either an open pathway in the cigar that allows most of the flux of air to travel, or the fact that core, slower burning tobacco components are missing. This is often why tunneling cigars taste so bad.

Look, I am not saying you don't have a high rH problem. I have customers in the south that come to me for that very reason, my humidors desiccate ( I know what you are thinking... read again! -LOL). You may well have overlapping issues, but you should not take the heat for Tabacubas crappy products (conflate issues)! A cigar that tunnels, is a crappy product!

MHO.

-the Pig

 

[40 Palms]

Let me ask a question I've not seen asked.  I've got a small closet humidor that is 2' x 3' x 14' tall. Aside from the RH issue, is it recommended to circulate the air? I'm in Florida and the humidifier fan only kicks on sporadically due to our higher humidity. I'll open it every few days and a gallon of water in the humidifier lasts a couple months. So not a lot of air movement. 

I've got a small computer fan I'm thinking of leaving on 24/7 or on a timer. What are your thoughts on the additional air movement?

[prodigy]

Let me ask a question I've not seen asked.  I've got a small closet humidor that is 2' x 3' x 14' tall. Aside from the RH issue, is it recommended to circulate the air? I'm in Florida and the humidifier fan only kicks on sporadically due to our higher humidity. I'll open it every few days and a gallon of water in the humidifier lasts a couple months. So not a lot of air movement. 
I've got a small computer fan I'm thinking of leaving on 24/7 or on a timer. What are your thoughts on the additional air movement?

My cabinet has 3 CPU fans that are on their lowest setting 24/7. I'm not going to say it's a good, bad, preferred, correct or incorrect way to do it. However, I find having a lot of airflow is preferable to little/no airflow.

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[El Presidente]

On 2/14/2019 at 6:47 PM, CaptainQuintero said:

 A few years back I went down steadily to 54% over the course of a couple of months. The flavours got more and more intense the further down I went but I stopped at 54% as wrappers started to become fragile.

  

There is a fine "trip switch" in terms of "flavourful and dry/bitter" once you head into the mid 50's.  I can't go below 58 and prefer 60-62.  Personal preference. 

[havanaclub]

Did you see [mention=79]PigFish[/mention] the chart linked by [mention=23478]JohnS[/mention]?   That helped me a lot, I apologize if you already saw it.
 
 

Does that link work for you? Says it doesn’t exist or I cannot access it?


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[CaptainQuintero]

9 hours ago, El Presidente said:

There is a fine "trip switch" in terms of "flavourful and dry/bitter" once you head into the mid 50's.  I can't go below 58 and prefer 60-62.  Personal preference. 

  I really should try going the other way and see how high you can go and how flavours change with it.

  I suppose with the lower Rh giving risk to breaking apart, the biggest thing will be when it gets too much trouble keeping a cigar alight, possibly mould issues? Thinking back, I think the biggest positive with dropping from the 70/70 tagline is not having to deal with your cigars going out, the flavour thing is a very nice by product

[HopeUgood]

22 hours ago, havanaclub said:

Does that link work for you? Says it doesn’t exist or I cannot access it?


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ya , works fine for me. weird 

[surfius]

Sorry guys, maybe it is a little too late but I cannot open the link that you shared. I would like to see how everything is working. Can I have it again? It is because of the humidity that I have in my basement. I have no idea how to solve this problem. Some of my friends are telling me that I have to buy a dehumidifier they even told me that at Aero State I can find all the information that I need about them. You know I still think that I'll be able to solve this problem without it. Your ideas are my last chance if not, of course, that I'll buy a dehumidifier, Thanks to my friends, now, I know which one will be the best for my humed basemnet.

[spicycorona]

On 2/18/2019 at 11:36 AM, PigFish said:

 

As always I say look for evidence before concluding. Live for the day, and be your own expert. Test, taste and experiment.

 

-Piggy

Bang. there it is. Same goes with any other hobby. Cooking, gardening etc. Gather as much info as you can and go do it and learn. Sciencey