Maduro class is in.

[cookj1]

I always wondered why they released them as Cohiba rather than one of the other brands.  I put it down to greed.  But I always thought they were more represented by the Partagas brand given the profiles.  Don’t get me wrong; I love them.  

I don’t find them sweet but there’s an element of cocoa to them and many people associate that with chocolate.  By extension, I wonder if that is where the perceived sweetness comes from?

I haven’t touched any Genios or Magicos in years.  It might be time to revisit them.  I have smoked the Secretos on a few occasions because I love them and they’re a great size.

[NSXCIGAR]

18 hours ago, cookj1 said:

I always wondered why they released them as Cohiba rather than one of the other brands.  I put it down to greed. 

Good point--Cohiba does seem the least apt brand to have a maduro line. And the cigars are certainly not in following with the rest of the lineup. The Maduro 5s are substantially different in profile than any standard Cohiba.

I'd have to agree in part with your assessment, but seeing as how the cigars aren't out of line with the rest of the marca in terms of price per gram and there is no question that quality raw materials are going into the maduros I'd say it was more of the idea that if the maduros failed under Cohiba they were just not meant to be at all. As it happens, they turned out to be quite successful under Cohiba and after 9 years they expanded to a much more logical home--Partagas. The No. 1 has also been a success, and logically is expanding into the No. 2 and No. 3 and within Partagas. 

I think the maduro experiment has been one of HSA's most successful and conservative programs. A bold debut under the flagship marca, reasonable pricing with 3 good vitolas, a slow 9-year presence before expanding the program and then only to one more model, 3 years more to test the waters before adding two more models. 

[madandana]

I don’t find them sweeter just richer and 

I suppose that’s from the more sugar in the rapper?

Before I started smoking Cubans I always went for the Maduro NC and to me there was quit a difference between Maduro and other wrappers

No I don’t get the same difference between the Cuban Maduro and other Cuban wrappers. Maybe that’s because I already find Cubans richer?

[El Presidente]

19 hours ago, cookj1 said:

I always wondered why they released them as Cohiba rather than one of the other brands.  I put it down to greed.  But I always thought they were more represented by the Partagas brand given the profiles.  Don’t get me wrong; I love them.  

I don’t find them sweet but there’s an element of cocoa to them and many people associate that with chocolate.  By extension, I wonder if that is where the perceived sweetness comes from?

I haven’t touched any Genios or Magicos in years.  It might be time to revisit them.  I have smoked the Secretos on a few occasions because I love them and they’re a great size.

We did some great experiments with roller Ramses when he was out here where we swapped wrappers on Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios and Cohiba Siglo VI. 

To our taste, outside of the wrapper, the blend is near identical. The Siglo VI tasted like a Genios and the Genios tasted like a Siglo VI. 

[El Presidente]

23 hours ago, JohnS said:

In regards to Maduro wrapper shades on the Cohiba Maduro 5 series, those Secretos' are lighter than standard, I would say, but those Cohiba Robustos are definitely darker than normal for standard Cohiba which on average would utilise Colorado Claro wrappers.

John, it was explained to me that Maduro does not mean dark...it means "ripe". 

On a Cohiba Maduro 5 cigar, the wrapper shade may be colorado maduro (I don't think I have seen any lighter) but it has been treated appropriately. 

[WhiteMamba]

Maduro cigars certainly seem sweeter to me. I’m not sure why. I would equate it to being something like plantains are more bland when fresh and green and when they ripen and become more yellow they are sweeter. There is probably some scientific reason behind it but that’s not my area of expertise. 

As for Cuba they certainly seem to produce a few maduro cigars (or at least ones that are marketed at maduro). I have never really had a chance to try a Cuban maduro. I’ll get to it eventually I guess but there aren’t really a lot of options. That is one of the reasons that I still give creedance to non Cubans because they have more options in the maduro wrapper.  Other countries aren’t as limited by space and time as Cuba is I guess.

at least that’s my 2cents 

 

For tobacco comparison I think the leaf by Oscar series is a good start they have Sumatra, corojo, maduro, and Connecticut wraper cigars all in the same format.

[Fuzz]

4 hours ago, El Presidente said:

John, it was explained to me that Maduro does not mean dark...it means "ripe". 

On a Cohiba Maduro 5 cigar, the wrapper shade may be colorado maduro (I don't think I have seen any lighter) but it has been treated appropriately. 

Is not the Spanish translation of maduros mean mature or ripe?

[NSXCIGAR]

On 10/3/2018 at 6:48 PM, Andy04 said:

True maduro is not a shade of wrapper, rather the outcome of the fermentation process.  Maduro could be defined as either double or triple fermented until the stack is unable to further emit heat.

Maduro technically refers to leaf primed late--"ripe" as @El Presidente notes. This also generally means almost exclusively tapado leaf. This means that the wrapper is maduro before it enters the drying barn. Processing therefore does not make a leaf maduro. Maduro leaf demands more advanced processing techniques which may further darken the wrapper, but it's the leaf that dictates maduro, and the maduro that dictates the processing

Maduro leaves will of course naturally cure darker due to more time in sunlight. The amount of sun a leaf gets is the primary factor in the processed leaf's ultimate color. This is why sun-grown wrapper is almost always darker than shade-grown. Strain is only one factor in final color. 

Now, there is something to the additional fermentation at higher temps. There seems to be an understanding that longer/multiple fermentations and/or fermentations at higher temps can produce leaf darker than would otherwise be the case. It seems that many  NC cigar producers use these techniques to produce maduro wrappers with no mind to the particular priming level of said leaf. Also, leaf processed in this fashion must be thicker and more resilient to withstand this more rigorous process.

So IMO, Cubatabaco is the only producer in the world who clearly states criteria most consistent with true maduro in the classic sense. The leaf must be tapado, ideally upper tapado (which Cuban maduros all are) and processed longer (at least an extended or one additional fermentation, which Cuba does.) There's no indication that Cuba directs a longer fermentation or a fermentation at higher temps for its maduro wrappers, only that the leaf undergoes one additional fermentation. Compare this to EL wrappers which are often as dark as maduro but undergo standard processing and are aged for two years. Partagas maduro wrappers are not aged at all. 

Again, to my knowledge, no other cigar producer openly states their criteria for maduro wrapper let alone specifically citing the use of only upper tapado as HSA does. And as modern nomenclature allows for the use of the term maduro to describe any leaf that is to the right of a dark Colorado shade it's pretty meaningless unless the criteria is openly stated as HSA has. 

[shadowACE]

I'm in the camp that finds Maduro to be fuller tasting rather than sweeter. I'd be hard pressed to positively identify a Maduro in a blind sampling.

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

[Andy04]

You clearly have more knowledge and experience than I do.

But for the sake of conversation and based upon my hands on experience from growing and processing I raise the following comments:

 

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Maduro technically refers to leaf primed late--"ripe" as @El Presidente notes. This also generally means almost exclusively tapado leaf. This means that the wrapper is maduro before it enters the drying barn.

1) Maduro translates to mature/ripe, but I still believe that from a cigar perspective the term Maduro needs to technically refer to a process. 

Unless the late priming is preassigned to become a maduro wrapper, you could pass me the very late priming, and I could still cure it candela.

I don't understand how a freshly primed leaf could be considered maduro before it is cured?  

 

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Also, leaf processed in this fashion must be thicker and more resilient to withstand this more rigorous process.

2) I agree 100% with this which raises point 3.

 

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The leaf must be tapado, ideally upper tapado (which Cuban maduros all are) and processed longer (at least an extended or one additional fermentation, which Cuba does.) There's no indication that Cuba directs a longer fermentation or a fermentation at higher temps for its maduro wrappers, only that the leaf undergoes one additional fermentation. Compare this to EL wrappers which are often as dark as maduro but undergo standard processing and are aged for two years.

3) I would say that at least 50% of my shade grown leaf ended up unusable for wrapper after the second or third fermentation, hence I have found much better results with sun grown leaf.

4) I have found that the majority of upper leaf (anything after my third priming) is generally to small to use for wrappers.

5) In regards to temperature, the stack will emit less heat during each fermentation.  Unless a heat source is used, I assume that the only way of increasing temperature during additional fermentation would be to build a bigger stack? 

[shlomo]

Difficult to accurately say if maduro is sweeter or not as HSA does not produce identical cigars in multiple wrapper shapes as many NCS do (labelled or marked). One of my favorite cigars, NC or Cuban, is the Fuente 858. I much prefer the maduro as there is a deeper sweetness to it although much less consistency. Maybe Fuente colors their wrapper somehow and adds some artificial sweetness (as Cuba might as well) or maybe they are all natural with the reason for the darker shade leading to volatility in quality.

Something similar in Cuba in terms of quality. Who remembers the dark, fireproof RyJ Duke and Monte GE wrappers? How easy is it to find a decent box of any maduro? Yuck.

[slowsmoke]

I am still new to the world of CC, but in my NC experience, I like maduro wrappers for their more earthy/funky/danky, and often slightly sweet flavors.  My understanding is this results from some extra fermenting process, but that "maduro" is just a generic term meaning a dark colored wrapper.

I recently listened to this old podcast episode where they discuss a number of different methods used to create maduro leaf, and it seems relevant here.  These guys can be a bit rambling (I find them entertaining), but if I recall correctly, their position is that "true" maduro isn't grown or picked differently than other wrapper, but it goes through a hotter, longer fermenting process.  Over the years, several other (of course quicker and cheaper) methods have developed, some of them not very pleasant.

https://thecigarauthority.podbean.com/e/the-ugly-truth-about-maduro-cigars/

Another interesting tidbit from the podcast is that NC maduro cigars are almost always stronger (body and nicotine), not because maduro leaf is any stronger itself, but because the brands intentionally blend them to be stronger.  This is apparently backed by their belief (and sales data) that customers expect and want maduro cigars to be stronger than shade or natural wrappers.

My understanding is that Padron, a well respected, high quality NC brand, does nothing at all different to their maduro cigars, they simply set aside the darker ones when sorting wrappers, and then box them together and call them maduro.

My $.02

[ElJavi76]

On 10/3/2018 at 6:32 PM, Ritch said:

Same thing as makes a really red strawberry sweeter. It's the sunlight and the ripening of the plant.

This... Maybe others have touched on this but maduro in Spanish means ripe. So like any ripe vegetation you're going to get sweeter flavors. In fruits, there are enzymes that turn starch into simple sugars and makes fruits less green and blander. Is it possible that the same enzymes are at work here during fermentation?

Amylase and Pectinase are what affect fruits.

[joeypots]

I thought that maduro wrapper leaf was made, not grown. If the heat produced by fermentation is allowed to run a little hot fermenting bundles of wrapper leaf get very dark. I haven't smoked any maduros in a while but I don't remember them being particularly strong or sweet. I do remember some high end Padron maduros were pretty tasty.

[joshhooper7]

The maduro wrapper has to be a process and not a coincidence, at least in my opinion after smoking a large sample size of cigars.

When I smoke a true Maduro cigar, it definitely imparts a brown sugar sweetness, even if dull, it's almost always present. Whenever I smoke a cigar that coincidently has a maduro colored wrapper, the sweetness isn't there. Darker wrappers do in fact add to a cigars richness, but not to their overall sweet flavor.

I got a box of Bolivar Petit Coronas from El Prez about a year ago and they were so dark they were almost oscuro. They're smoking amazing, but they're not sweet. They're velvety rich, full of leather, earth and a pungent bakers chocolate that tickles the roof of the mouth. When I smoke Cohiba Maduro, there is a genuine sweetness that you can't get over. As someone stated before, it could be mental in that we hear the word 'maduro' and our brain prepares to consume something sweet, but I certainly am no expert on the matter.

The above leads me to believe that dark wrappers that could be classified as maduro are simply coincidence, and that the actual curing and fermentation process to make a true maduro are different.

My closing statements here are just a few wishes for the future. With maduro leaf being darker, richer and sweeter, why hasn't HSA decided to implement it into their sweetest, richest cigar marca? Montecristo No. 2 and No. 4 are already rich and sweet and delicious with a Colorado wrapper; the American market would go ape shit for a box of Maduro Montecristo No. 2 that are full of cream, chocolate, brown sugar and coffee already, add in a maduro wrapper and the palate will be delighted with pure ecstasy. Oh well, one can only hope!

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, joeypots said:

I thought that maduro wrapper leaf was made, not grown.

If maduro is made and not grown than the very meaning of the word is moot. Maduro means ripe/mature. This must necessarily refer to a late priming. Now, there may also be additional processing techniques involved in getting a late-primed leaf to be usable as wrapper, but that is a consequence of the leaf being primed late, or maduro. Both the late priming and the advanced processing contribute to the darker wrapper color, as does the strain. 

I think the source of confusion is that maduro has come to mean simply "dark wrapper" in modern cigar lexicon. This means that technically, Maduro wrapper can be made and not grown. To me, this is why maduro as a technical term is almost totally meaningless. Cuba is the one exception as they openly state that the leaf is primed late and that it does undergo an additional fermentation. This means that Cuban maduro wrapper is the closest to the classic definition of maduro in the world, and as no other producer I'm aware of states their criteria, may in fact mean that Cuba is the only producer of maduro wrapper as it was classically understood.

16 hours ago, Andy04 said:

Unless the late priming is preassigned to become a maduro wrapper, you could pass me the very late priming, and I could still cure it candela.

I believe that upper tapado would be pre-assigned as maduro wrapper. Most upper tapado is going to be too thick and unattractive for standard premium cigars and is probably used for JLP and Cuban peso cigars. JLP has huge production numbers and I wouldn't be surprised if most of the upper tapado cultivated was used for the brand until the maduro program appeared, of course. 

I would also conjecture that it would be virtually impossible to process a Cuban upper tapado leaf to a smokeable candela. I would imagine particular strains are favored for candela, and upper tapado is going to be too thick and will cure inherently too dark to make candela. Candela is exclusively made with very low, early primings that insure high chlorophyll content is retained.

[NSXCIGAR]

15 hours ago, shlomo said:

Something similar in Cuba in terms of quality. Who remembers the dark, fireproof RyJ Duke and Monte GE wrappers? How easy is it to find a decent box of any maduro? Yuck.

EL wrappers are not considered maduro. They are "seconds" wrappers that are not necessarily upper tapado and are deemed too unattractive or dark for standard Habanos, at least early in the program. They are aged for two years, but don't undergo any additional processing. 

I think many of the EL wrappers had or have serious combustion issues. One of the most famous is some of the 07 Hoyo Regalos. I think in recent years, they've been quite a bit more selective in choosing EL wrappers, probably using less upper or no upper tapado and choosing more supple, thinner leaf that happens to be darker. 

[shlomo]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

If maduro is made and not grown than the very meaning of the word is moot. Maduro means ripe/mature. This must necessarily refer to a late priming. Now, there may also be additional processing techniques involved in getting a late-primed leaf to be usable as wrapper, but that is a consequence of the leaf being primed late, or maduro. Both the late priming and the advanced processing contribute to the darker wrapper color, as does the strain. 

I think the source of confusion is that maduro has come to mean simply "dark wrapper" in modern cigar lexicon. This means that technically, Maduro wrapper can be made and not grown. To me, this is why maduro as a technical term is almost totally meaningless. Cuba is the one exception as they openly state that the leaf is primed late and that it does undergo an additional fermentation. This means that Cuban maduro wrapper is the closest to the classic definition of maduro in the world, and as no other producer I'm aware of states their criteria, may in fact mean that Cuba is the only producer of maduro wrapper as it was classically understood.

I believe that upper tapado would be pre-assigned as maduro wrapper. Most upper tapado is going to be too thick and unattractive for standard premium cigars and is probably used for JLP and Cuban peso cigars. JLP has huge production numbers and I wouldn't be surprised if most of the upper tapado cultivated was used for the brand until the maduro program appeared, of course. 

I would also conjecture that it would be virtually impossible to process a Cuban upper tapado leaf to a smokeable candela. I would imagine particular strains are favored for candela, and upper tapado is going to be too thick and will cure inherently too dark to make candela. Candela is exclusively made with very low, early primings that insure high chlorophyll content is retained.

We are talking about Cuba here. You think they have a batch of particularly Dark wrapper leaf and they don't just use it to roll Cohiba Maduro 5s and instead toss it out?

"Classical" and "technical" go out the window when trying to fill quotas.

That being said, early Magics and Secretos were unsmokeable. This first couple years were brutal. If it makes you happy, feel free to replace monte GE and RyJ Duke with Maduro 5.

As for the Regalos, they just never lit properly, but I don't recall seeing any particularly Dark wrappers.

[havanaclub]

I have always though maduro means, higher primings and extra fermentation. Well that’s at least what they tell you. But it has been said that some NCs actually dye their wrappers.
I have always found maduro wrappers to be more sweet at times and produce darker more bold flavours such as cocoa. With NCs it seems as though they can be very peppery. Now this could be due to the Ligero filler.
Maybe it’s the extra fermentation that gives the sweeter flavours?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NSXCIGAR]

21 hours ago, shlomo said:

We are talking about Cuba here.

I never said that they actually use what they claim to use. But seeing as how the tobacco is primed and fermented at the fincas there should be some corroboration of this process independent of Cubatabaco.

We can only go by what is stated officially unless there is direct information contradicting that. I'm sure Cuba does cheat, but unless we know for sure we are stuck with their claims.

[NSXCIGAR]

13 hours ago, havanaclub said:

I have always though maduro means, higher primings and extra fermentation. Well that’s at least what they tell you. But it has been said that some NCs actually dye their wrappers. 

Only Cuba tells us that. Again, I know of no other producer that openly states their criteria for maduro wrapper. Color may be the only requirement for much of the NC world.

Dyeing of wrapper still occurs but it has been going out of fashion for quite some time. 

[BeerPimp]

Unfortunately just getting into CC I have not had a CC with a maduro wrapper.   I will say I love the NC Hoyo de Monterrey Maduros.

[MoeFOH]

Great thread! Drawing the winner for an El Pres Sampler Pack for contributions here, and the winner is... @Jal154 

Congrats! Please email Lisa at [email protected] with your details so we can ship your prize. : )

Thanks to all.