A few questions on Cohiba

[El Presidente]

In summary:

1. No more construction isues with Cohiba than any other Cuban cigar. 
2. Most people can attribute a variety of flavours to Cohiba. 
3. It is pretty much line ball whether members feel they are worth the money or not. 

None of the above is earth shattering 

Like them or loathe them, peoples perosnal opinions are valid. However, interpreting other peoples reasoning for purchase is fraught with danger.  People purchase for a variety of reasons.  Perceived prestige is certainly one of the reasons Cohiba is popular.  Is it worth twice as much as a JLS2? That is in the eye of the beholder. Is a Panerai with a 7750 movement worth twice that of a Breitling with the same movement? Depends on the buyer. Plenty of people like Cohiba and smoke them. The Cohiba Lancero and Corona Especiales are two of the finest cigars produced in Cuba....in my eyes.  My mate Greg hates them. Is he a moron.....yes....but for reasons having nothing to do with cigars.   

I detest manzanilla sherry. Ken is bonkers for the stuff. Before I tasted it, I bought a case because ken was bonkers for the stuff. It has absolutely no redeeming features for me. Pure medicine. ken loves the mineral purity and flavour interplay. I get none of that. Is Ken making it up? Of couse not. I just can't taste what he is tasting. That is just life. 

They are just cigars. like them, loathe them, buy them, leave them...it doesn't really matter. 

 

 

 

 

[fitzy]

I think they are a good cigar but I feel your paying extra because it's a Cohiba. I don't bother buying them but I would buy more lancero's.(I wish those lancero's were petite lanceros. I'll have to get the especiales a try sometime I guess)  

There are plenty of other CC's that are just as good(or better) and at a fraction of the price. Personally I'm rather fond of the Bolivar Royal Corona's. 

[JY0]

I have a box of CORO's from 2010  and enjoy one once in a while. For or me it's a consideration of value. For the same coin I can get a 50 cab of RASS. 

For me the value of Cohiba just isn't there. 

[fitzy]

Ok so after replying to this thread I received an email from a particular LCDH saying they will be getting in Behike 52's and Behike 54's. They are taking orders now 1 box per customer. The Behike 52's are $853 USD for 10 cigars and the Behike 54's are $1221 for 10 cigars. 

Can someone tell me why the heck I would want to pay $85.30 per 52 and $122.1 per 54??? 

I can get 6 boxes of other brand CC robusto's or belicoso's/pyramid's for the price of the 54's. So can someone please tell me how it's possible they are worth that much?  I guess they are worth that much if people are willing to pay it.

[Islandboy]

2 hours ago, fitzy said:

Ok so after replying to this thread I received an email from a particular LCDH saying they will be getting in Behike 52's and Behike 54's. They are taking orders now 1 box per customer. The Behike 52's are $853 USD for 10 cigars and the Behike 54's are $1221 for 10 cigars. 

Can someone tell me why the heck I would want to pay $85.30 per 52 and $122.1 per 54??? 

I can get 6 boxes of other brand CC robusto's or belicoso's/pyramid's for the price of the 54's. So can someone please tell me how it's possible they are worth that much?  I guess they are worth that much if people are willing to pay it.

While I am a fan of the Cohiba profile, there is certainly a limit to the premium I’m willing to fork over, and I’m with you - this crosses that threshold significantly. But I suppose if you have the resources, you could always be blowing it on something even more questionable.

[Philc2001]

I'm sure there is some validity to the price premium mental blockage for some, but by the same token I think there is also more praise for Cohibas because of the price premium too. "If these are expensive then they must be good and I should like them"    I've come across folks who rate wine and restaurants by what they cost too, rather than what they actually taste. 

Thus, I don't think price bias is as dominant as some have stated in this thread. My taste buds seem to experience titillation when stoked by Esplendidos, but find Siglos repugnant, for whatever that's worth. My experience with Lanceros and Robustos is very limited, so I don't have much opinion on those specific sticks. But I know very well what the sensation in my mouth is when I light up a Siglo, and I've smoked several, and I always come away with the same sensation - dry mouth, overpowering hay overtones, gagging throat sensation and an immediate desire to wash out my mouth. I'd much sooner smoke a cheap $3 PLP than any Siglo, even if it was free. It's nothing against Cohiba, I'm not a fan of several other brands including JLP, most VRs and even RAs, hence I buy the cigars I like and leave the rest to you my brothers.

Bring the Montes, Partagas, Romeos, Hoyos and a handful of others (I just discovered Fundadores) that send me on that magical tour. 

[Corylax18]

2 hours ago, fitzy said:

Ok so after replying to this thread I received an email from a particular LCDH saying they will be getting in Behike 52's and Behike 54's. They are taking orders now 1 box per customer. The Behike 52's are $853 USD for 10 cigars and the Behike 54's are $1221 for 10 cigars. 

Can someone tell me why the heck I would want to pay $85.30 per 52 and $122.1 per 54??? 

I can get 6 boxes of other brand CC robusto's or belicoso's/pyramid's for the price of the 54's. So can someone please tell me how it's possible they are worth that much?  I guess they are worth that much if people are willing to pay it.

I can't speak to why you would, but the reason most people will pay that much for 10 very fresh, regular production cigars is because they are suckers. P.T. Barnum nailed over a hundred years ago. "Another sucker is born every minute." We aren't talking rare, ultra vintage dunhills or davidoffs that you cant get anymore of. Were talking 4.5" and 5.5" regular production cigars, that there will literally be hundreds of thousands more of. We're talking about $100/hr, if you're ok paying that much to smoke a regular production cigar than I have some amazing beachfront property in Utah you should look at. 

We can't even blame HSA for this one, they havn't implemented that price increase, the retail purveyor has. My guess is were talking about certain European LCDH owned by a former Habanos man of the year award winner. I wonder if HSA is aware/OK with the fact that he is profiting more from their work then they are? If I was one of his "customers" receiving that email I would be insulted that they think I'm that dumb. Rob had a box of 2009 RyJ Grand Reservas up the other day that ended up selling for $20 LESS per stick than these Behikes are being offered for, nobody in their right mind can justify that. 

[fitzy]

So I’m glad to hear I’m not crazy.

[jfire]

Prez I know I asked you about sending this to you about a year and a half ago. It’s over 5k documented cigars that over 1 dozen Botl kept track of in 2013 on a google docs sheet. I do have permission from the document creator as the whole intention was to share this with as many cigar smokers as possible. (I was actually the group starter).
Please see how many Cohiba the group had plugged in 2013.
(A plugged cigar could not be labeled plugged unless it sat for 5 days after being cut and still no draw. If it was tight after 5 days. It was grouped as tight but smokable)



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[JamesKPolkEsq]

The old adage applies: it is worth what someone is willing to pay for it... 

Ever tasted shark fin soup? It is horrible, and yet it is wildly expensive. 

Why complain about the price of something like Behike or Cohiba in general? They are fetching prices well above your assessment of what they are worth? Who gives a fig? 

There are many alternatives with better value; revel in your frugality and smugly enjoy your subsidized smoke 

[Ken Gargett]

18 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I detest manzanilla sherry. 

your ancestors are rolling in their graves.

[Ken Gargett]

8 minutes ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

The old adage applies: it is worth what someone is willing to pay for it... 

Ever tasted shark fin soup? It is horrible, and yet it is wildly expensive. 

Why complain about the price of something like Behike or Cohiba in general? They are fetching prices well above your assessment of what they are worth? Who gives a fig? 

There are many alternatives with better value; revel in your frugality and smugly enjoy your subsidized smoke 

completely agree with you except one thing - shark fins are essentially flavourless. the soup gets its flavour from the other ingredients. if you had a horrible experience it was because whoever made it, made crap soup. it is largely a big con for imbeciles to show how wealthy they are. (shark fin, not cohibas).

[dominattorney]

18 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I. Is Ken making it up? Of couse not. I just can't taste what he is tasting. That is just life. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is something I had not given due consideration to until reading this post.  Interesting, I think Prez also said earlier in this thread or the one that spawned this one that some people don't taste grass or hay with coffee in the Cohiba marca due to physiological differences.  This is a novel idea for me, and one certainly worth more thought, or perhaps scientific inquiry.

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, dominattorney said:

This is something I had not given due consideration to until reading this post.  Interesting, I think Prez also said earlier in this thread or the one that spawned this one that some people don't taste grass or hay with coffee in the Cohiba marca due to physiological differences.  This is a novel idea for me, and one certainly worth more thought, or perhaps scientific inquiry.

what rob is saying is spot on (don't quote me). if you do a lot of winetasting, you'll see people work out their palates. some are good at picking cork taint, others can't get brett, and so on. each palate/nose is different.

[El Presidente]

59 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

I can't speak to why you would, but the reason most people will pay that much for 10 very fresh, regular production cigars is because they are suckers.

Or the fact that money is no object. If you have to worry if you can afford them or not....and you still buy them at that price, then I agree with you. 

I wouldn't be lining up to purchase a box at those prices....or half those prices. Not for me. 

Then again I have mates who would. One in particular would buy a dozen boxs because he misses them so much!. Then again he is a squillionaire who has never had an alcoholic drink in his life.  I can only imagine what I have spent on booze over the years. Who am I to question what he spends his money on. 

Along similar lines....for all thosewho purchased a Porche Macan......the are really only volkswagons with a body kit. Suckers. 

 

 

[Kitchen]

I think tastes are neither subjective nor different for each person.  It is just whether or not someone has trained their palate enough to pick up on all of the flavors. 

I was pretty much raised to cook right out of the womb and almost went to culinary school.  (At the end of the day, the lifestyle of a chef just was not for me.)  When I worked in restaurants we would constantly need to taste everything to make sure it had the right amount of this, the right amount of that.  We would taste food from other places to try and figure out what was in it and how to make it ourselves.  I even had to taste things I did not like just because I needed to know how they should taste. 

All flavors are unique and objective. 

[prodigy]

Prez I know I asked you about sending this to you about a year and a half ago. It’s over 5k documented cigars that over 1 dozen Botl kept track of in 2013 on a google docs sheet. I do have permission from the document creator as the whole intention was to share this with as many cigar smokers as possible. (I was actually the group starter).
Please see how many Cohiba the group had plugged in 2013.
(A plugged cigar could not be labeled plugged unless it sat for 5 days after being cut and still no draw. If it was tight after 5 days. It was grouped as tight but smokable)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I could quadruple those plugged stats from one box lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[dominattorney]

 

47 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

what rob is saying is spot on (don't quote me). if you do a lot of winetasting, you'll see people work out their palates. some are good at picking cork taint, others can't get brett, and so on. each palate/nose is different.

I agree with this, and the statement on Brett puts it in new light for me, especially various expressions of Brett.  I have a  buddy who can taste the sour expressions of Brett, but cannot taste the horseblanket/barnyard expressions.  Personally I can taste both (though my experience is more nuanced in the world of beer, I have noticed the barnyard expression in some excellent red wines). 

22 minutes ago, JoeKitchen said:

I think tastes are neither subjective nor different for each person.  It is just whether or not someone has trained their palate enough to pick up on all of the flavors. 

I was pretty much raised to cook right out of the womb and almost went to culinary school.  (At the end of the day, the lifestyle of a chef just was not for me.)  When I worked in restaurants we would constantly need to taste everything to make sure it had the right amount of this, the right amount of that.  We would taste food from other places to try and figure out what was in it and how to make it ourselves.  I even had to taste things I did not like just because I needed to know how they should taste. 

All flavors are unique and objective. 

To this statement, I would disagree to a point, and perhaps draw an analogy to illustrate my point of view.  Look at the sky.  What color is it?  Most would agree that it is blue--however, what blue means to each individual observer is likely different (perhaps drastically so) as it depends upon the interplay of photons on the receptors in our eyes, as well as our individual brain's interpretation of what is relayed to it by the receptors in the eyes, by way of a complex network of nerve endings and god knows what else.  We still agree the sky is blue, thus a measure of objectivity, but subjectivity nonetheless plays into our experience of "blue" as a concept. 

This is not a perfect analogy to taste, as we are talking about multiple concepts--the experience (the taste itself)--the metaphor ("tastes like chicken")--the relationship with the metaphor (Chicken tastes like chicken, which is an objective reference point)--and the organic compound/subject interaction (the interplay of the chemicals and aromatic compounds on our taste and smell receptors, as well as the brain's interpretation thereof, via transmittal of a signal to the brain via nerve/synapse network).  With Color we seem to just have the experience, the metaphor, and the organic interaction.  However, it can nonetheless be instructive to draw certain parallels.  I would agree with JoeKitchen that all flavors are (probably) unique, and distinct from one another, though I take a different view on the objectivity of flavors.  I don't think objectivity of flavor  can be demonstrated scientifically.  Perhaps objectivity of the organic compounds that are interpreted as flavor, but flavor itself is based upon processes that are internal to the subject experiencing the flavor, and inherently subjective by nature. 

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, JoeKitchen said:

I think tastes are neither subjective nor different for each person.  It is just whether or not someone has trained their palate enough to pick up on all of the flavors. 

 

Every tongue is different (in many ways) including the array and quantum of Papillae/taste buds.  It has a significant effect on how well one can detect flavours (or certain flavours). 

Plenty of research has been done on it. Quite interesting reading. 

[joeypots]

I can only comment on the Linea Classica (sp) and the Siglos. I love them, but, and it’s a big but, they need time. Lots of Marcas suit me better when young. Most of the ELs, Monte Cristo and Cohiba being the exceptions, leave me flat. I did sell my stash of the ELs and the REs a few years ago and specifically bought COROs, Siglo IVs, and IIIs.   Those are the sizes I prefer and since I made a profit on the cigars I sold I have some Cohibas layed down. On the construction front I think most tight draws are rectified by proper storage and time. I like them to have at least 5 years on them and I trust what Rob says about the Siglo IIIs. The longer they sleep the better.  I’ve had mind blowing experiences with aged Cohibas. They can be tangy, grassy, creamy smooth smoking bliss. I save them for special smokes. I’ll smoke ten cigars to every one Cohiba and after about 20 years smoking 2 cigars a week it seems to be a pretty set rotation. My .02$

[Kitchen]

3 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Every tongue is different (in many ways) including the array and quantum of Papillae/taste buds.  It has a significant effect on how well one can detect flavours (or certain flavours). 

Plenty of research has been done on it. Quite interesting reading. 

Yes, but in the end, you still have the ability to learn what a flavor taste to you, meaning you differentiate it from others. 

[El Presidente]

1 minute ago, JoeKitchen said:

Yes, but in the end, you still have the ability to learn what a flavor taste to you, meaning you differentiate it from others. 

I think most of us through experience can learn how to differentiate flavours in a cigar. 

However both Ken and Smithy dwarf me on the spectrum of flavours they can pick up. They just have more sensitive/broader palates.  

[Kitchen]

1 hour ago, dominattorney said:

To this statement, I would disagree to a point, and perhaps draw an analogy to illustrate my point of view.  Look at the sky.  What color is it?  Most would agree that it is blue--however, what blue means to each individual observer is likely different (perhaps drastically so) as it depends upon the interplay of photons on the receptors in our eyes, as well as our individual brain's interpretation of what is relayed to it by the receptors in the eyes, by way of a complex network of nerve endings and god knows what else.  We still agree the sky is blue, thus a measure of objectivity, but subjectivity nonetheless plays into our experience of "blue" as a concept.

I find it interesting, and ironic, that you picked blue.  Did you know that blue is always the last color to be named in every culture, and, until it is named, you can not perceive it nor differentiate it from many other colors.  

Humans didn't even ...

I feel taste are similar.  Just like the color blue, many flavors are part of everyday life.  However, many of us just do not learn what they are or how they taste.  (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just something that happens.  People are busy and dont have the time to learn all the nuances of flavor.)  So they just do not perceive them when they are present. 

[Ken Gargett]

1 hour ago, JoeKitchen said:

I think tastes are neither subjective nor different for each person.  It is just whether or not someone has trained their palate enough to pick up on all of the flavors. 

I was pretty much raised to cook right out of the womb and almost went to culinary school.  (At the end of the day, the lifestyle of a chef just was not for me.)  When I worked in restaurants we would constantly need to taste everything to make sure it had the right amount of this, the right amount of that.  We would taste food from other places to try and figure out what was in it and how to make it ourselves.  I even had to taste things I did not like just because I needed to know how they should taste. 

All flavors are unique and objective. 

i'm sure that you could google it. supertasters? something like that. tongues do vary enormously with the number of taste buds they have. and this leads to massive differences in what people can detect. i have a few friends that leave me in the dust with what they can pick up.

i'd add something more - from a wine perspective, people often say that the palate can't handle the numbers of wines that judges look at. and yes, if you have to look at 200 young shiraz, it is very tough. you do get worn down. there is palate fatigue. but that said, my feeling is that you train for it, even if subconsciously. like for an aussie kid, get in the batting nets and practice for hours, hitting balls bowled to you. and this translates to the amount of time you can spend in the middle. if you have not done that practice, much harder to concentrate for the long periods needed, not to get out. same with wine, if you have done a lot of tasting, you can look at a lot more wines than if you just have a glass now and again.

[Kitchen]

9 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i'm sure that you could google it. supertasters? something like that. tongues do vary enormously with the number of taste buds they have. and this leads to massive differences in what people can detect. i have a few friends that leave me in the dust with what they can pick up.

i'd add something more - from a wine perspective, people often say that the palate can't handle the numbers of wines that judges look at. and yes, if you have to look at 200 young shiraz, it is very tough. you do get worn down. there is palate fatigue. but that said, my feeling is that you train for it, even if subconsciously. like for an aussie kid, get in the batting nets and practice for hours, hitting balls bowled to you. and this translates to the amount of time you can spend in the middle. if you have not done that practice, much harder to concentrate for the long periods needed, not to get out. same with wine, if you have done a lot of tasting, you can look at a lot more wines than if you just have a glass now and again.

I would say this makes sense and does not necessarily contradict what I am saying.  Although some people are better at learning flavors better then others, I feel much of the time the reason some do not perceive certain flavors is because they never learned what they are. 

Same thing with color.  As a photographer, I stare at color all day.  I am constantly studying it, and the amount of colors I can detect are far more then most.  I kind of think most people could get to that level with constant practice, but, really, unless you do it day and day out, who has the time.