Tech question for leaf lovers.......Binder

[El Presidente]

John S and I touched on this last night at the Sydney lads cigar get together (great night ).

I mentioned that there is plenty of discussion about wrapper, about the role/quality of Seco, Volado, Ligero....but no one discusses binder.

I gave my thoughts to John but a couple of questions to members. 

1. Is the role of binder akin to a sausage casing....just there to hold together the good bits?
2. Does binder have flavour?
3. is there differing quality of binder?
4. If the answer to point two and three is "Yes" then how important is binder in the final flavour character of the cigar? 

So what is the full extent of the role that binder plays?

For those that have spend time on fincas (in Cuba/Nic/Dom), you may have spent time doing loose rolls of pure wrapper, volado, seco....in order to determine the characteristics of each and when blending, what you are playing with.  Have you ever smoked a loose roll of binder? Let us know what you experienced?

I hand the discussion over to you 

[Fuzz]

1. No

2 & 3. Yes

In answer to Q4, I'm no expert by a long shot (more likely the village idiot), but I don't think you can discount the effect a binder has on the overall flavour of a cigar. Just like a pinch of salt can dramatically change the flavour of a dish, so to could the binder change the end flavour of a cigar. The binder is still being burned and releasing an aroma, regardless of whether the smoker can perceive it or not, as a distinct flavour from the filler and wrapper.

And on the point of sausage casings, try filling 2 different quality sausage casings with the exact same filler, and see if it makes a difference in taste experience.From a tasting I did in my old job, there is definitely a difference in the way you perceive the flavour.

[Fugu]

Usually done from the class of volado leaf, so couldn't add too much in terms of flavour. Main point is combustibility, at least that's what's stated by Habanos SA. Might have been different in "former" times, but technically, wouldn't make much sense.

HSA:

Capote: "Las hojas que se recolectan de la parte más baja de la planta constituyen el volado, de menor fortaleza, (también denominado Fortaleza 1) y las más grandes y mejores de ellas se seleccionan como capote."

and adding for volado: "Se recogen de la parte inferior de la plante. Muy importante para la buena combustión del Habano. Fortaleza 1."

So my answers to your questions, Rob, would essentially be quite the opposite to Fuzz'....

 

Edit: I like the sausage casing analogy (while, depending on the type of sausage it could in fact be tasty...)

[canadianbeaver]

Certainly no expert but for our cigars here, I say the binder is not an issue at this quality level and pure country of origin. More emphasis on wrapper and construction of this, triple cap etc.

A different kettle of fish when the cigar describes itself as Dominican filler, Ecuador binder and Nicaraguan wrapper?

CB

[El Presidente]

45 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Usually done from the class of volado leaf, so couldn't add too much in terms of flavour.

Have you ever had a "volado puro"? ....fresh rolled....put together....light up. 

For those who have, what was your impression? Was it what you expected?

[Fuzz]

47 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Usually done from the class of volado leaf, so couldn't add too much in terms of flavour. Main point is combustibility, at least that's what's stated by Habanos SA. Might have been different in "former" times, but technically, wouldn't make much sense.

HSA:

Capote: "Las hojas que se recolectan de la parte más baja de la planta constituyen el volado, de menor fortaleza, (también denominado Fortaleza 1) y las más grandes y mejores de ellas se seleccionan como capote."

and adding for volado: "Se recogen de la parte inferior de la plante. Muy importante para la buena combustión del Habano. Fortaleza 1."

So my answers to your questions, Rob, would essentially be quite the opposite to Fuzz'....

 

Edit: I like the sausage casing analogy (while, depending on the type of sausage it could in fact be tasty...)

Sir, I take umbrage!

[Guest gorob23]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

John S and I touched on this last night at the Sydney lads cigar get together (great night ).

I mentioned that there is plenty of discussion about wrapper, about the role/quality of Seco, Volado, Ligero....but no one discusses binder.

I gave my thoughts to John but a couple of questions to members. 

1. Is the role of binder akin to a sausage casing....just there to hold together the good bits?
2. Does binder have flavour?
3. is there differing quality of binder?
4. If the answer to point two and three is "Yes" then how important is binder in the final flavour character of the cigar? 

So what is the full extent of the role that binder plays?

For those that have spend time on fincas (in Cuba/Nic/Dom), you may have spent time doing loose rolls of pure wrapper, volado, seco....in order to determine the characteristics of each and when blending, what you are playing with.  Have you ever smoked a loose roll of binder? Let us know what you experienced?

I hand the discussion over to you 

1. yes it basically does keep it together BUT (always a but) it it also burns the best and easiest (I think if I recall correctly), very little flavor if any.

I am certainly no expert,  as my friends will attest to but ( see again a but ) I was lucky enough to smoke cigars made pure, entirely of only the 3 types of leaf: Ligero, Seco and Volado NOT mixed together, each cigar was pure.  Interesting One of our group got the idea of trying 2 of the cigars at the same time and a completely different smoke which was easy to tell and much better than pure ligero  

 

I didn't take notes so I think I got the facts all straight 

 

Rob 

[polarbear]

Coming from a long period of time smoking NCs, I feel that there isn't a single part of a cigar (aside from the band, perhaps) that doesn't add to the overall flavour.
NC manufactures are fond of releasing a cigar that has the same filler but different wrappers or binders and having compared them on numerous occations I've found considerable differences in the finished blend

Obviously, CCs are a different matter as there isn't quite as much variation in tobacco strains or origins but I fail to see how the binder couldn't affect the overall flavour

[Fugu]

13 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

Sir, I take umbrage!

Haha, just wanted to put up a bold different view against your very clear statements, which you voiced without the slightest doubt, Fuzz. Of course the picture is never plain black & white, and then even I have to admit that this all would have to be considered in more detail with a differentiated approach. Of course, the binder won't be tasteless, but - if you ask me - that property doesn't come first place. But difficult at times due to a lack of solid information.

Perhaps for some fun read - here's a link to an older discussion of last year, mainly on wrapper, but also including some anectdotal empirical findings on binder as well (long post alert!):

Excerpt:

"But - the proof being in the pudding - what's even more interesting is a tasting of the different components, "a la vela", so to say:

That clearly revealed that, although the wrappers were not at all "tasteless" - in fact they were quite aromatic and pleasant tasting - by no means were they able to outshine the binder or the filler by any wider margin. In the Upmann, I perceived the wrapper as being a tad more aromatic than the binder, in the CS it was vice versa. The filler, always and by its sheer smoke volume was clearly providing the main compontent of the overall taste for me (While I was even able to "smoke" wrapper and binder, by losely rolling them up to their original shape again and carefully drawing in the developing smoke through the obtained tube, that wasn't possible anymore with the filler bunch of course).

 

Note: Due to the wrapper burning much, much quicker as when attached to the cigar, the produced smoke volume was considerably larger than it would normally be, adding to enhancing the concentration of the wrapper's smoke and aroma. To a lesser extent also holding for the binder. Therefore, there still was a certain overestimation in the aroma contribution of each, and in a real cigar the particular organoleptic contribution of the wrapper would be even much less than that perceived in the experiment."

 

[Duxnutz]

No invite? How ruuuuude  

1. No. I'm with fuzz I believe every component adds to the whole. 

2. Believe so.

3. I've had to take the wrapper off a couple cigars to repair other ones and I'd say yes for sure.

4. I have no idea but maybe 10%. I believe a good binder acts similar to the lettuce leaf in San chow bow, helps bring all the flavours together but doesn't overpower any.

 

[Guest gorob23]

11 minutes ago, polarbear said:

but I fail to see how the binder couldn't affect the overall flavour

No real flavor at all, it's all about the burn. When we smoked the Ligero and Seco  together right away it smooth things out.. the Valado just nothing, at least on the CC 

I'm just calling as it happened to me 

 

Rob 

[godpheonix]

1 hour ago, polarbear said:

Coming from a long period of time smoking NCs, I feel that there isn't a single part of a cigar (aside from the band, perhaps) that doesn't add to the overall flavour.
NC manufactures are fond of releasing a cigar that has the same filler but different wrappers or binders and having compared them on numerous occations I've found considerable differences in the finished blend

Obviously, CCs are a different matter as there isn't quite as much variation in tobacco strains or origins but I fail to see how the binder couldn't affect the overall flavour

yup, couldn't of said it better myself!

[PigFish]

Facts being different from speculations, I cannot smoke a cigar without the binder.

From a speculative aspect, the wrapper, wraps the cigar making it look nice. The binder, binds the filler and it is a structural member.

Sometime simple works. 

You know what I do know? When you store the 'complete package' at the right EMC, it tastes better. That I know...

Cheers! -the Pig

[polarbear]

16 minutes ago, PigFish said:

From a speculative aspect, the wrapper, wraps the cigar making it look nice.

Can someone explain the point of the Cohiba and Partagas Maduro lines then, please?

[PigFish]

8 minutes ago, polarbear said:

Can someone explain the point of the Cohiba and Partagas Maduro lines then, please?

... marketing!

[KoreanCowboy]

So I asked a friend of mine that owns a cigar line that is manufactured in Nicaragua this question. His thoughts: a robust uses 3.5 leafs in the filler, the binder leaf, and wrapper leaf. 5.5 leafs total. So nearly 20% of the cigar is binder leaf. It would be impossible for that leaf to not impart significant flavor. 

[Fugu]

9 hours ago, Hutch said:

Some rollers/manufacturers intentionally use a more "pungent" leaf as binder, some simply use cosmetically inferior wrapper leaf.

Hutch, show me a "pungent" volado leaf....

Using seco or ligero for binder would heavily compromise on combustion and burn performance.

 

I always love definite arguments of the kind

9 hours ago, Hutch said:

There's definitely an influence on both the flavor and aroma. How could there not be ?

or

13 hours ago, Duxnutz said:

4. I have no idea but maybe 10%.

[Fugu]

11 hours ago, KoreanCowboy said:

So I asked a friend of mine that owns a cigar line that is manufactured in Nicaragua this question. His thoughts: a robust uses 3.5 leafs in the filler, the binder leaf, and wrapper leaf. 5.5 leafs total. So nearly 20% of the cigar is binder leaf. It would be impossible for that leaf to not impart significant flavor. 

You can't go by the unit "leaf" here. In terms of relative mass contribution in the finished product - depending on vitola - it is more in the range of a 10-15% share for binder. And given it's a Fortaleza-1 leaf, there's really not a "significant" flavour contribution to be expected.

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, Hutch said:

Not sure why you believe that binder, by necessity or practice, is always volado leaf. It is neither.

Read thread from top...

 

Edit: Translation of the relevant part (just in case):

"The leaves that are picked from the lowest part of the plant represent the volado, of lower strength, (also denoted as Fortaleza 1), the largest and better ones of which are being selected for binder."

volado: "Is taken from the lower part of the plant. [It is] Very important  for a good combustion of a Habano."

Edited February 1, 2017 by Fugu

[Fugu]

Hutch - different matters: Been talking Cuba, you are obviously talking about NC producers. Perhaps we just got wires crossed. (Now, I could be nasty and say, of course, NCs have such a hard time adding flavour to their cigars anyway, they need to put in everything they got.... but I won't....). Now, joking aside, I can't comment on how it is done elsewhere than in Cuba, and those leaves display quite different properties compared to Cuban leaf. But even NC producers will have to follow certain basic key requirements in cigar construction.

In Cuba, the upper (i.e. larger as well as structurally stronger) volado leaves are usually used for binder, that's how it is done / should be done. There may perhaps be the occasional seco-grade to slip in after fermentation, not sure, but that's basically it (e.g. I could imagine, when there is too much sand leaf and/or there is a shortage in normal binder due to climatic conditions - e.g. the lower leaves, drying slowest, are also more susceptible to mould - maybe those are then giving those dreaded sticks with good taste but burn issues?!). But I am speculating here.

The general use of leaf of the volado type for binder in Cuba, we can state with a decent degree of certainty, as there is only one producer out there in Cuba.... an information that can be taken from a range of different sources. The single citation from the HSA website, I gave simply because it is the most direct info coming from the company itself, not taken from a textbook, and also quickest and easiest to be checked up by anyone for himself. I am not at all saying I know it all, but that pretty much is the verifiable information available for Cubans. But I'd guess that there are more people out there on FOH who are more in the know in matters of Cuban production. Perhaps they'll still turn up and add to the topic!

[JohnS]

@Duxnutz apologies mate, it was very last minute whilst Rob was in town. We were just lucky that the 38°C scorcher day settled into a much cooler 23°C night and the threatening storm/s did not eventuate. Besides, it was unlike usual cigar meetups we attend in that some of us Fat Bastards were hitting the black coffee and diet cokes, very little wine and beer was to be had. I can't wait for the next two months! 

(There's) A lot of references too in this thread to the Socratic paradox, it is indeed wise to claim ignorance on matters we can't be definite about. However, on this matter let's not forget Einstein's example of the relationship between gravity and space-time. The idea that space is not nothing and is curved was definitely not the accepted 'norm' in 1905. It took until 2007 for NASA to publish definitive proof of the theory that is now widely accepted. In the same way, it has long been accepted that the volado leaf in a habanos cigar is for combustion purposes and the question of its impact on overall flavour is only a recent trend. Or perhaps I'm incorrect on this point? No matter, I too feel that all the leaves used in a habanos cigar influence the overall flavour.

The question in my mind is how much? I remember asking a friend of mine who is a chef what was the one ingredient that can alter a recipe the most about 20 years ago. His answer struck me for its apparentness....salt! Yes indeed, try swimming in a saltwater pool with a salt concentration above 0.7% and you'll know about it! 

Perhaps one day a scientific study will be released where the impact of each leaf in a habanos cigar will be quantified mathematically, you know...much like how baseball sabermetrics measures the impact of a player to a team's overall wins in a Major League season against their peers.

Until then, we have to rely on 'scout reports', i.e. our expert subjective experiences to guide us.

Thanks and cheers Rob for the enlightening discussion we had about the impact of binder leaves, and leaves in general.

[garbandz]

I will say that I have run across Sumatra binders in cigars, and it ruined the whole cigar for me.

With VERY few exceptions, I cannot smoke a cigar with any Sumatra in it, and as stated before, the binder is a significant % of a cigar.

When I was rolling my own I looked for a binder that either contrasted or reflected the other parts of the blend.

Much like French wines from the Midi, if there is any Gamay in them, I cannot drink them.

[fabes]

Interesting point on volado @JohnS

Forgive me if this is basic knowledge, but then is volado in a sense a means to dilution? And dilution being a way to coax certain flavors like how water can tame barrel strength whiskys and open them up so to speak. Like the volado opens up the concentrated ligero? And the seco adds balance and texture?