Oz Packaging

[gweilgi]

Found an interesting article on the subject from April this year:

http://www.ipa.org.au/sectors/nanny-state/publication/2478/cigars-and-the-plain-packaging-effect

 

All too often, one of the unconsidered and under-reported outcomes of such do-gooder policies is the active harm it causes hard-working people in the Third World.  Anti-this and anti-that campaigners quite simply do not bother to consider the effects their policies have beyond their narrow Grand Vision.  They want to stop us smoking, drinking, eating.  They want to stop climate change, save the planet, save species X.  And in the process, they end up discriminating and hurting those parts of humanity which are most vulnerable.  So effectively they are racist.  They just don't give a flying leap at a rolling rat's anus about funny-coloured people in hard-to-spell countries.

[TomF]

On 11/4/2016 at 6:16 PM, PigFish said:

The brick and mortar stores days are numbered. Soon you will simply buy tobacco (around the tariffs) via conduits to other counties. I cannot even fathom how stupid a concept this is... And people blame the business owner for 'going offshore.' If this is not a classic example of the twisted mind of the leftist I cannot find one...

God save us from the left!

-the Pig

This is so obnoxious. .......

Edited November 6, 2016 by Ryan
name calling

[garbandz]

Can you imagine never having seen any cigar packaging other than this new scare tactic stuff, and one day stumbling across a dress box of

any regular production Cuban cigar and wondering " could these be real?"  

[PigFish]

Facts about who pushes tobacco legislation in my country are out there for all to read. I don't see a reason to assault the messenger! Alas, I am not an angry leftist!

Please research:

The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, (Pub.L. 111–31, H.R. 1256) is a federal statute in the United States that was signed into law by President Barack Obama on June 22, 2009. The Act gives the Food and Drug Administration the power to regulate the tobacco industry.

It was specifically written by a leftist congress to give power to the FDA that was previously considered overreach via a supreme court decision. This law filled this legal loophole, with specific intent to kill the tobacco industry.

Please examine  who voted for it, and do some research on the history of the current FDA Tobacco administrator Mitch Zeller (first appointed by the Clinton administration) to 'ban' tobacco. Funny how the very same guy who failed under Clinton (via the courts) has come back to this job (after leaving it) to finish the job... by the current president. Perhaps we should call that a coincidence!!! -LOL

I can accept criticism, and debate. Yet debate seems in some cases to be beyond the reach ...

-Piggy

 

Edited November 6, 2016 by Ryan
Unnecessary descriptions of other members

[Ryan]

On 11/4/2016 at 3:35 PM, canadianbeaver said:

Me in Dublin this summer. Don't know who has better branding... me or Dublin

There is a display ban on tobacco on Ireland. However, there is an exemption for specialist tobacconists, of which there were 4 now 3 shops left.

In order to get the exemption, specialist tobacconists had to give up the sale of cigarettes.

No exemption, yet, in Ireland for the specialist tobacconists regarding plain packaging of cigars, which would probably mean the end of sales of premium cigars in this country.

H&F won't introduce plain packaging for a market which makes up less than 10% of their sales, and for the sub-distributor here to pay for it themselves would make cigars unprofitable when extra cost and decrease in sales are taken into account. The margins are that tight.

[Ryan]

Guys, keep the conversation nice, please.

There is legislation coming down the line in many countries all over the world. Some have left wing governments, other right-wing. Either way it will affect all of us who wish to continue enjoying cigars.

I've read some of the legislation (EU and Ireland) and a lot of it is not very clear, almost to the point of meaningless, even for tobacconists. Most countries are happy to lump cigars in with all other forms of tobacco when it comes to legislation. It's simpler and cheaper for them and closes some of the potential loopholes which cigarette companies have always and will always try to exploit.

It's a shite state of affairs.

Rather than argue among ourselves and name-calling, try to keep the discussion open and friendly. At least here.

[canadianbeaver]

Thanks for the info, Andrew. I would be very cautious about cigars not in store like this but most customers who might want an afternoon puff might not.

Here in Ontario, Canada, small variety stores have boxes of assorted Cuban cigars under the counter with a few pages of instruction for costs. I cannot believe this is a unique experience.

So Caveat Emptor one retail side, real cigars at our level the other perhaps.

CB

 

 

 

[gweilgi]

10 hours ago, Ryan said:

Guys, keep the conversation nice, please.

There is legislation coming down the line in many countries all over the world. Some have left wing governments, other right-wing. Either way it will affect all of us who wish to continue enjoying cigars.

I've read some of the legislation (EU and Ireland) and a lot of it is not very clear, almost to the point of meaningless, even for tobacconists. Most countries are happy to lump cigars in with all other forms of tobacco when it comes to legislation. It's simpler and cheaper for them and closes some of the potential loopholes which cigarette companies have always and will always try to exploit.

It's a shite state of affairs.

Rather than argue among ourselves and name-calling, try to keep the discussion open and friendly. At least here.

Couldn't agree more.

This is not an issue of partisan politics.  The nanny state is enthusiastically pushed by just about all parties.  

This is really an issue of moralising crusaders versus humanity.  And let's not for one New York minute imagine that once they have banished the evil of tobacco, they will retire quietly.  Oh no.  They are far too addicted to their sacred mission of protecting everybody else from anything and everything they consider to be harmful.  They are on a "mission from god", and they always, always, ALWAYS know best.  So they will simply shift their aim.  They will come after all of us who like a wee dram or a glass of wine, all of us who like to eat a steak, all of us who have a sweet tooth.  We could all be squatting in hand-formed mud brick hovels washing down our organic tofu with rationed rain water while wearing hand-woven un-dyed hemp and they would still come after us for some other infractions or pleasures.  It's in their nature.

And on that note, I shall bugger off to crack a bottle of Oktoberfest beer, fire up a Bolivar Royal Corona and plan my best moves to persuade SWMBO to have wild unprotected sex.  With any luck, I may step on and squash some endangered species of cockroach on the way.  

 

 

[Fugu]

I had liked your post gweilgi were it not for the squashed cockroach....

[Fugu]

13 hours ago, Ryan said:

There is a display ban on tobacco on Ireland. However, there is an exemption for specialist tobacconists, of which there were 4 now 3 shops left.

It is really hard to believe how far we've already gotten with this. They really made shops not being able to display (inside?) the very goods they are selling?!!!

[Ryan]

3 hours ago, Fugu said:

It is really hard to believe how far we've already gotten with this. They really made shops not being able to display (inside?) the very goods they are selling?!!!

Shops that sell cigarettes cannot display them in any way. The only way people know that a shop would sell cigarettes is when the shop displays signs like "Tobacco cannot be sold to persons under 18" etc.

That law is currently coming into force in the UK too. If not already.

[Cmelle]

Bought a single today here in Melbourne. This is how it came. 

[Cmelle]

Bought this one as a single in Melbourne a while ago. I tried to take that ugly green label off to see the beautiful cohiba label and bam 

[canadianbeaver]

16 minutes ago, Ryan said:

Shops that sell cigarettes cannot display them in any way. The only way people know that a shop would sell cigarettes is when the shop displays signs like "Tobacco cannot be sold to persons under 18" etc.

That law is currently coming into force in the UK too. If not already.

Same here. They use filing cabinets but have pictures of smokes over them and sometimes. Little boxes of strange cigarettes on the counter. I don't smoke them so I don't quite understand them. At a First Nation or Aboriginal dealer you can drive through and get huge boxes dropped in your car when you pay. And some have been altered from regular National brands.

Like I said before, only so many we can smoke in life, so I am very particular.

[garbandz]

that answers my question of " do they put the new band over the factory band", thank you !

[BuzzArd]

1 hour ago, Cmelle said:

Bought this one as a single in Melbourne a while ago. I tried to take that ugly green label off to see the beautiful cohiba label and bam 

Yep. Sad.  Per the regulation: 

"If a plain packaged cigar band covers a non-compliant band or bands:

• it must completely cover the non-compliant band(s), and
• it must be fastened firmly to, and not easily removable from, the non-compliant band(s)"

[Orion21]

These regulations are much more prevalent in societies where healthcare is covered by the government.  Lets not forget that cigarette smokers have been a huge stress on the system because of the cost to treat the many ailments associated with addiction to it.  This correlation ruins it for cigars smokers because the simple ideological mind of anti-tobacco will never EVER be able to separate the two.  They have decades of studies saying "tobacco" kills and cigars are made from tobacco.  There is no rational argument or statistics any of us can provide that will convince them to take another look.  It's now to a point where the tax revenue has declined and impact of smokers on the system far outweighs the revenue they provided.

But lets not pretend this is not a political issue because it is.  In the USA, at least, there is one party whom continually pushes these types of social engineering laws and one that does not.  It may not be that way in other countries, but in the USA it is.  Luckily in the USA it has been left up to the States to decide how tobacco is taxed etc.  But the new FDA law that PigFish mentioned allows the FDA to bypass the States to basically, hypothetically, make it cost prohibitive for tobacco companies to bring new products to market and provide a mechanism for the FDA to keep the products in approval "limbo" until they hit the FDA's criteria for an acceptable product.  And this is where the rubber really meets the road because according to the FDA tobacco products causes disease and deaths.  So in what parallel dimension will the FDA approve any new tobacco products . . . ?

So I would argue to my brothers and sisters on both side of the aisle that in 2009 the American President signed a bill into law that gives the FDA the power to kill all new tobacco products from the market - including our beloved cigars.  They may technically not be illegal anymore because they are Cuban, but my prediction is that they will remain black market for other reasons.  Mostly due to the FDA, in the future, not approving them for sale, which would make them illegal. 

[JohnS]

4 hours ago, Cmelle said:

Bought a single today here in Melbourne. This is how it came. 

 

4 hours ago, Cmelle said:

Bought this one as a single in Melbourne a while ago. I tried to take that ugly green label off to see the beautiful cohiba label and bam 

A Diplomáticos Bushido and Cohiba Piramides Extra? Both superlative cigars reduced to looking like ....!

I hope at least they turn out to be a highly enjoyable cigar-smoking experience!

[RijkdeGooier]

Since the advent of cigarettes marketed as little cigars the ship where a meaningful distinction can be made between cigars and cigarettes has sailed. 

 

To go back to the old days of unbanded cigars in a 100Cab doesn't seem too bad to me. 

[gweilgi]

11 hours ago, Fugu said:

It is really hard to believe how far we've already gotten with this. They really made shops not being able to display (inside?) the very goods they are selling?!!!

Depending on your age and jurisdiction, this is pretty much what used to be the law with "girlie magazines".  Want a copy of this month's Playboy?  Take your pick from any one of the magazines in plain wrappers on the top shelf ....

So in a real sense, cigars are now deemed to be obscene, too dangerous for unprotected helpless minds to behold in their full glory....

 

 

[Fugu]

5 hours ago, BuzzArd said:

7 hours ago, Cmelle said:

Yep. Sad.  Per the regulation: 

That's actually more than only sad. That's destroying a vital part of the product. The - undamaged - band belongs to it and is part of the purchase. It's a cultural good. And it is one of the means to be able to scrutinize the authenticity of a stick. Gone are the days of vitolphilia....

They could likewise start and demand to cut off 1/3 of each stick to make the smoke last a litte shorter as a health measure. Ridiculous, where is that to end?

Hard to fathom how the industry has been so defenceless with regard to plain packaging.

 

 

.... for what? That slogan alone shows how clueless they are: Cigars have never been an alternative for cigarettes.
 

 

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, RijkdeGooier said:

Since the advent of cigarettes marketed as little cigars the ship where a meaningful distinction can be made between cigars and cigarettes has sailed.

No. Easy. Still.

Simple matter of strict definition: >2.5 g black tobacco w/o additives + natural wrapper leaf = cigar

All else they may call what they like.

[gweilgi]

 

1 minute ago, Fugu said:

No. Easy. Still.

Simple matter of strict definition: >2.5 g black tobacco w/o additives + natural wrapper leaf = cigar

All else they may call what they like.

That would be premium cigars.

What about flavoured cigars?  Machine-made short filler cigars?  

[Fugu]

8 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

 

That would be premium cigars.

What about flavoured cigars?  Machine-made short filler cigars?  

A machine-made shortfiller cigar is still a cigar (given natural wrapper) acc. to my above definition.

All else, flavoured, HTL or otherwise artificially modified - for all I care, call that shite cigarettes.

[gweilgi]

5 hours ago, Orion21 said:

These regulations are much more prevalent in societies where healthcare is covered by the government.  Lets not forget that cigarette smokers have been a huge stress on the system because of the cost to treat the many ailments associated with addiction to it.  This correlation ruins it for cigars smokers because the simple ideological mind of anti-tobacco will never EVER be able to separate the two.  They have decades of studies saying "tobacco" kills and cigars are made from tobacco.  There is no rational argument or statistics any of us can provide that will convince them to take another look.  It's now to a point where the tax revenue has declined and impact of smokers on the system far outweighs the revenue they provided.

Cost is one aspect, and that can be covered by taxes and other remedies.  Anything beyond that is plain vindictive and prohibitionist.

Let's not forget, either, that cigar smokers, merchants and manufacturers are not entirely innocent in this regard.  Put simply, we did not engage in the sort of publicity and lobbying effort needed to make a difference.  By way of comparison: vintage cars are by and large exempt from strict safety and emissions regulations applied to all other internal combustion vehicles because they *lobbied*.  They kept hammering home the point to lawmakers, organisations and the public that a Jaguar E-Type or 1966 Ford Mustang are not the same as a modern Jag or Ford, and should receive different classification and treatment.  We should have done the same...

 

5 hours ago, Orion21 said:

But lets not pretend this is not a political issue because it is.  In the USA, at least, there is one party whom continually pushes these types of social engineering laws and one that does not.  It may not be that way in other countries, but in the USA it is.  Luckily in the USA it has been left up to the States to decide how tobacco is taxed etc.  But the new FDA law that PigFish mentioned allows the FDA to bypass the States to basically, hypothetically, make it cost prohibitive for tobacco companies to bring new products to market and provide a mechanism for the FDA to keep the products in approval "limbo" until they hit the FDA's criteria for an acceptable product.  And this is where the rubber really meets the road because according to the FDA tobacco products causes disease and deaths.  So in what parallel dimension will the FDA approve any new tobacco products . . . ?

So I would argue to my brothers and sisters on both side of the aisle that in 2009 the American President signed a bill into law that gives the FDA the power to kill all new tobacco products from the market - including our beloved cigars.  They may technically not be illegal anymore because they are Cuban, but my prediction is that they will remain black market for other reasons.  Mostly due to the FDA, in the future, not approving them for sale, which would make them illegal. 

Public health will always be bipartisan, to an extent.  After all, that's where easy votes are to be had: who could possibly argue against laws that save money and stop people from dying?  

As for the cost, that could be covered.  Cigar manufacturers could band together to fund one central testing facility and organisation whose single purpose would be to gain FDA approval.  This would significantly cut costs to individual manufacturers, IMO.