And this is why you cooler dive now and then

[PigFish]

As a scientist, one never gets tired of re-iterating things for those who do not understand yet want to know.

In fact, one takes joys in those asking 'why' because it shows the nature of a curious [and therefore scientific] mind. Those are the minds that will lead the future.

Everyone starts somewhere.

Well said. This is just one of those topics that is continually renewing itself with each wave of fresh Habanophiles.

It is also true that reiteration provides one with the opportunity to re-examine prior conceptions and assumptions, lines of reasoning. I will admit that I find it occasionally tasking. But as you and pbibby say, it is often worthwhile, if not fulfilling, for self as well as readers.

Wilkey

Bravo, both of you...

I don't see forum life as a bunch of elitist hens, some of which have secret decoder rings while others don't... Yeah, sure there are some cliques but some of us enjoy the mentoring aspects of cigar banter and can reply to the same questions from newer members with the same gusto that we exhibited the first time we responded to it.

Short of new Els there is not a lot of cigar 'real estate' that has not been walked and discovered. Sharing the discoveries with new, eager minds exercises the neurons of the pupil as well as the professor. Even those that may consider themselves settled may find some new path amongst those well trodden...

The search function does not keep the forum alive. The search function defines an on line encyclopedia and not a forum of friends...! My 2 cts.

Great replies guys, both of you!

Cheers. -P

[cigarbreak]

What if I wrap my wife in foil? Will that slow down her aging process?

Funniest comment i've read in a while LOL

[kiwiman911]

For really long term storage, 10 yrs+, I use foil to maximally slow down oxygen-dependent aging processes. This is my practical approach to a theoretical situation: cigars that I treasure, plan to smoke infrequently, and which I wish to extend their accessibility indefinitely. Well, as long as I live, then. So for example, the Tangs, OR Siglo VI, supercabs of prized cigars, codes, etc.

I've made this choice based on my understanding and research of the chemistry and chemical engineering behind the phenomenon. I'm no dilettante. I have advanced degrees and over dozen years of experience in the field. This is why occasionally discussions get out of hand. There are only a handful of members here and at other forums with similar backgrounds but we rarely form the bulk of communications on the topic. That sounded snobbish but I don't mean it in that way.

I also use zippered polyethylene bags. I put cigars that I stock multiple boxes of, smoke at a moderate rate, and expect to turn over every few years. For example, RASS and Partagas Shorts cabs. Zip bags are always fully sealed as the point of bagging is to slow down, to a lesser degree than foil, aging. For this, we rely on the properties of the poly as a membrane the inherent properties of which provide that "respirational throttling." Leaving the bags open doesn't make sense with respect to this intent.

And then there are some packages these and other cigars that I leave bare in cooler. Those are more my "ready to smoke." For example dressed boxes of Boli CJs, PSD4, etc.

My storage choices are also driven by my personal taste for younger, more forward profiles of the cigars I enjoy. Thus, slowing to varying degrees but not freezing development meets my near and long term needs.

Does that help?

Wilkey

I have been in cigars for a some time but I always enjoy when someone shares his knowledge with the rest of the gang that is how I(we) learn.

thanks for the reminder of how and why we do things

[CaptainQuintero]

What is your storage Wilky? Wood cabinet, wine fridge, tupperdor etc?

I've been humming and going recently wether to go down the wrapping route, but my two storage units are both plastic sealed units , one magnetic and the other with rubber seals which is taped up and covered up, both in a cold dark place (a garage not just describing the UK in general). Both units are full, right up to the top with the only space left being that between boxes. So around 95% full.

I'm thinking that as one is essentially sealed for a year at a time and the other gets opened once e ery 6 months or so, air exchange is very limited already?

Essentially I'm wondering if the foil wrapping and/or bagging is needed in your opinion

[Arkay]

Wow--Nice find!

[shlomo]

For really long term storage, 10 yrs+, I use foil .....

I also use zippered polyethylene bags. I put cigars that I stock multiple boxes of, smoke at a moderate rate, and expect to turn over every few years. For example, RASS and Partagas Shorts cabs. Zip bags are always fully sealed as the point of bagging is to slow down, to a lesser degree than foil, aging. For this, we rely on the properties of the poly as a membrane the inherent properties of which provide that "respirational throttling." Leaving the bags open doesn't make sense with respect to this intent.

Maybe an odd question, but wouldn't zipper bags slow aging more than foil? I use Ziploc or plastic wrap myself. Have been for a couple years now. Similar to foil?

[shlomo]

Also, don't you have a tool that tracks your gars?

[Ginseng]

Hi Captain,

Sounds like a really good and effective system you have there. Fairly similar in function and execution to mine which is exclusively plastic coolers.

Until a few years ago, I didn't use foil and only used plastic bags occasionally. So I consider them experiments in progress. The deep storage is accessed only once a year or so. They are quite full, have crystals to provide a bit of humidity. Of course I use remote T/RH monitors (Oregon Scientific).

Given the nature of your storage, I would not expect plastic to impart any differential effect over a decade's time. Foil, yes, but over substantially longer time frames. The actual time horizon would be speculation.

Keep in mind that bags and foil serve as boundaries that isolate and establish a micro-environment of preferred conditions amidst a larger macro-environment.

So, foil sealing in the Amazon Rainforest or the Sahara Desert would have a powerful effect and be absolutely essential. In a well-sealed cooler in a T/RH-stable basement, nearly superfluous.

Wilkey

[Ginseng]

Maybe an odd question, but wouldn't zipper bags slow aging more than foil? I use Ziploc or plastic wrap myself. Have been for a couple years now. Similar to foil?

Foil is essentially an absolute barrier compared to any kind of consumer packaging film or container. Think of it this way: would sliced fresh tomatoes last longer in a plastic bag or a can?

As for films, polyethylene is what Ziplocs and Glad Wrap are made of and they are relatively low performing with respect to oxygen and moisture vapor barrier. Saran Wrap is the other kind, PVDC, and it is an excellent oxygen barrier.

Films can be a good choice. Their benefits are flexibility and conformability. Some boxes are just too large to fit into a standard gallon bag.

I just use an Excel spreadsheet to track at the box level.

Wilkey

[Maplepie]

Foil is essentially an absolute barrier compared to any kind of consumer packaging film or container. Think of it this way: would sliced fresh tomatoes last longer in a plastic bag or a can?

Wilkey,

Ever though of flame sealed flint glass tubes? The ones we use in the lab to store pure sodium, potassium, etc metals from oxidising? Now THAT would be a curious experiment! Complete and udder airtight storage.

But on a more serious note, foil seems odd as it's not airtight. Keep in mind that cans are weld (or sometimes soldered) shut. I can't imagine a strip of aluminium foil would do the same thing. (Now canned cigars - THAT'S an idea).

What about Saran wrap? or Parafilm?

[Ginseng]

Well, it would be a time capsule then. I referred to Saran. Parafilm is no good. After a few years it turns into a sticky, waxy mess.

I was speaking of the properties of the material. Clearly the construction of the wrap matters. Double layer, folded seams and you're about as good as you can get without heat sealing or welding.

Wilkey

[CaptainQuintero]

Hi Captain,

Sounds like a really good and effective system you have there. Fairly similar in function and execution to mine which is exclusively plastic coolers.

Until a few years ago, I didn't use foil and only used plastic bags occasionally. So I consider them experiments in progress. The deep storage is accessed only once a year or so. They are quite full, have crystals to provide a bit of humidity. Of course I use remote T/RH monitors (Oregon Scientific).

Given the nature of your storage, I would not expect plastic to impart any differential effect over a decade's time. Foil, yes, but over substantially longer time frames. The actual time horizon would be speculation.

Keep in mind that bags and foil serve as boundaries that isolate and establish a micro-environment of preferred conditions amidst a larger macro-environment.

So, foil sealing in the Amazon Rainforest or the Sahara Desert would have a powerful effect and be absolutely essential. In a well-sealed cooler in a T/RH-stable basement, nearly superfluous.

Wilkey

That's excellent info thank you I was leaning towards that but needed some peer guidance!

[...]

I use ziploc bags. Never had a box too big to fit in the large bags, which are about 1 1/2 times as large as the gallon bags. Can easily fit a 50 DC cab in these

[Maplepie]

Double layer, folded seams and you're about as good as you can get without heat sealing or welding.

I think the new Vegueros might be onto something...

We could always store cigars in a sardine tin that's fresh until opened and put away! I think it's the wave of the future... Stores won't even full humidors that way!

But alright... I may just have to replace a few of my vintage/ humidor stuffers with some foil. I may just shove some of my dried out early 90s Bolivar Corona Gigantes in foil when I get home. Seems beneficial that way, anyway...

[Fuzz]

For about $600 you can get a continuous track foil bag sealing machine. Then all you'd need is either flat bags (for dress boxes) or gusseted bags (for SLB).

[CaptainQuintero]

For about $600 you can get a continuous track foil bag sealing machine. Then all you'd need is either flat bags (for dress boxes) or gusseted bags (for SLB).

This place has changed me. I know you typed something else but all I can see is:

"$600 for 12:12"

.

[LGC]

You guys are over thinking this. Just put your sticks in mason jars, and you will be set for life.

[CanuckSARTech]

Great finds, Wilkey!!!! Yummy!!!!

[topdiesel]

Nothing compared to your awesome rediscovery, but I just bought some blank bands and was working through my singles and came across an RG Slederellas. I have no Idea where it came from or when it appeared, so that was a fun surprise. it will come out of hibernation when spring time rolls around.

[AlohaStyle]

Good find indeed!

Wilkey, where do you rate wax paper compared to the other wrap options in regards to using them for long term storage, breathability etc? I haven't yet wrapped any of my long term boxes but have been wanting to do so for awhile now.

[PapaDisco]

Good to know that saran wrap provides a less permeable seal than zip locks. Will have to switch to that in the future.

It would be fascinating to see a table of all the compounds providing flavor in a cigar, and information on which oxidize and at what rates, what they typically break down into or recombine into, that sort of thing.

[Marker]

There were a few pipe shops that would take bulk pipe tobacco, put it in a bag, then seal it in a tin can. They would be 8oz cans. I had one and opened it after 10 years in the can. Marvelous way to store it. No mus with a jar seal and zero chance air was getting in. Red Virginia aged beautifully and the moisture was like the day it went in.

[Ginseng]

Good to know that saran wrap provides a less permeable seal than zip locks. Will have to switch to that in the future.

It would be fascinating to see a table of all the compounds providing flavor in a cigar, and information on which oxidize and at what rates, what they typically break down into or recombine into, that sort of thing.

Such a table would absolutely be fascinating.

Wilkey, where do you rate wax paper compared to the other wrap options in regards to using them for long term storage, breathability etc? I haven't yet wrapped any of my long term boxes but have been wanting to do so for awhile now.

Wax, or more specifically paraffin, is basically a low molecular weight polyetheylene so its properties will be in the same class as Glad Wrap or ZipLoc bags. That is to say, low to moderate resistance to oxygen and water vapor. if I were to put boxes away for a while, I'd wrap in Saran then foil overwrap. If I could afford those giant stainless steel shipping containers that Urs and Nino use, I'd go that way. More elegant, practical, but more costly.

Wilkey

[madog69]

My brain won't let me forget cigars..lol

[Blace]

Awesome information in this thread, very much appreciated! Thanks Wilkey