Moral question

[Guest rob]

The recent thread discussing how the end of the embargo would effect cigar prices, supply and quality got me thinking. I noticed that whilst the topic title was just general in nature, the topic went in part to some people suggesting that they would not welcome the embargo end. The comments generally made reference to how some don't want their cigar supply, prices and quality to change for the worse.

Hypothetically speaking:

If there was a global ballot, where you were entitled a vote - If it could GUARANTEED that the end of the embargo would liberate the Cuban population, allowing them freedoms and wealth not seen since the 1960's.... but as a by product also GUARANTEED an increase in cigar prices, diminished supply and degraded quality - what would your vote be?

As a kicker to the scenario - the vote and result is immediate. You would not have the opportunity to 'stock up'.

Mine is not even a decision that needs consideration.... I'd support the end of the embargo in a heartbeat.

Does Hedonism trump Moralism?

[winelover]

It would be easier to judge your moral question if you could indicate the increase in cigar prices, hypothetically speaking that "freedom" would bring.

If cigar prices were doubled then answers might differ from say a 5% rise. So please clarify what kind of increase you envisage.

G

[Guest rob]

I'm speculating of course. But, let's say for the purpose of discussion it doubled. Let's also say that any change was not going to be short term, and was going to be that way for the foreseeable future.

[Ryan]

Of course I'd vote to end the embargo. I've seen what Cubans have to deal with.

How the freedom and wealth of individual Cubans would be affected is pure speculation.

An exit strategy and cheap long-term loans from the IMF would be a start. Possibly a board of advisors made up of people who went through the Eastern Europe transition of the early-mid 90s.

A well regulated planning department.

"No you can't have 5 Starbucks on that block"

"You want a McDonalds on Calle Obispo? Fine, but you pay to fix the mains water and sewage lines on the street".

[markmurase]

I'm sure JFK had strong morals, but he sent his aids out to stock up on his Cuban cigars before signing the embargo

For the record - I 100% support lifting the embargo if it would give great benefit to the Cuban population, but I'm not sure if that would be the case.

[Blace]

I don't think this is much of a conundrum for most people. I do support lifting the embargo as it hurts the Cuban population far more than the Cuban government. If I have to pay more for cigars, so be it, I gladly would. I would also argue that the cigar quality would improve together with the improved lives of the Cuban people. You would have to be pretty damn mean spirited to continue exploiting people (if it was your decision) just to enjoy a cheaper Cuban cigar...

[oliverdst]

Rob, believe me, you are being naif believing that the end of the embargo would "liberate the Cuban population, allowing them freedoms and wealth not seen since the 1960's".

Do not forget the other side of the coin.

But, of course, I understand your question and thought.

If the end of embargo would liberate Cuban people, freedom, wealth... YES, I would be totally pro end of embargo. If It was necessary to stop smoking cigars I would do it.

[Guest rob]

Rob, believe me, you are being naif believing that the end of the embargo would "liberate the Cuban population, allowing them freedoms and wealth not seen since the 1960's".

Let me be clear - I am not of the opinion that lifting the Embargo would solve the population's problems. I firmly believe that the socialist govt will rule Cuba for decades to comes, even if the embargo was lifted.

[Guybrush]

I am not sure if

no socialist gov = no problems

[Drguano]

I was thinking along the same lines while reading the thread about the end of the embargo. The short answer to your question is yes, lift the embargo even if it means no more good, cheap smokes coming out of Cuba. Give the Cuban people the opportunity to have a go at it.

[Jeremy Festa]

The socialist government would have 5 years (max) once the embargo is lifted. The divide in wealth would increase significantly among the Cuban people, which is in line with most if the developed world. But for the majority of Cubans, this would be a good thing, as the people will be brought up to a position above where they are situated right now.

Footnote: I would pay triple the price of cigars, because I love them so much.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dvickery]

the question I ask is ... the people are uplifted to what ??? the same economic standing as Honduras or Nicaragua (two American friendly states) ... Honduras and Nicaragua have less wealth and freedoms than cuba ... at least this was my observation when I was there .

derrek

[Faire]

the question I ask is ... the people are uplifted to what ??? the same economic standing as Honduras or Nicaragua (two American friendly states) ... Honduras and Nicaragua have less wealth and freedoms than cuba ... at least this was my observation when I was there .

derrek

Or the same economic standing as Costa Rica or Panama.

[Philski]

If it could GUARANTEED that the end of the embargo would liberate the Cuban population, allowing them freedoms and wealth not seen since the 1960's....

The embargo is just a trade sanction, albeit imposed by just one country. If the US lifted it, it would not imply in any way that the political system would be loosened.

In fact, I can think of several scenarios where it might actually become tighter and more restrictive.

[DrunkenMonkey]

There is absolutely no scenario I can imagine where the lifting of the embargo would be anything but good for the Cuban economy.

It's amazing to me that, given the above fact, anyone would want the embargo to continue just because lifting it MIGHT:

- result in the end of monopoly control over Cuban cigar production by HSA

- result in increased cigar prices/tighter supply

Jesus, guys, they're just cigars, and whatever happens they will continue to be produced. The embargo is a much bigger issue than cigars; it's about the quality of life for an entire country, and their ability to function economically.

An end to the embargo might hasten the end of the current regime. Or it might not. Either way, trade with the US would benefit the Cuban people.

[PigFish]

Oh to be misunderstood!

I think Rob is asking only a simple question, do you choose yourself or the other guy? Based on your direct question Rob, I would choose the other guy!

The reality of the proposal does not really enter into the question. It is hypothetical and delusional! It is just a direct question.

On the other hand, like others I have a spin.

I believe in the free market. The free market means that when I support my best interests the other guys interests are served with me. This of course does not take into account the plethora of Marxist arguments against the free market. You don't need to bombard me with them. Yes, there are dishonest people, there are hurtful people and some of them reside in business as well as government. There are laws in free countries that protect the minority from the majority. They protect the poor from the rich generally if the laws work as they should. There is no perfect government. There is no reality in egalitarianism of outcome.

So lets drop the embargo question for a moment as say that if the cost of a free Cuba meant more expensive cigars I would say that is okay!

The reality of it, is the exact opposite. A free Cuba would mean more competition where farmers as well as cigar producers would again compete for the smokers business. A free Cuba is Cuba's best interest only if the people in Cuba can deal with it, want it, and don't ruin it themselves. Freedom cannot be given! It needs to be worked for. People who have not earned it will lose it. Much of the free world gives evidence to this axiom every day.

A free Cuba actually means better cigars for less money in the long run. Cubans working for themselves, supporting their best interests means that they can produce their products as they wish and sell them to whom they wish. This means better cigars at better prices.

Cigars are expensive today and it is not to due to "too much freedom." The black market of Cuban cigars, whether sold by countries around their own laws and shipped without tariffs, or as a result of Cuban internal dishonesty, is frankly closer to a free market supply then what is seen though the legitimate legal supply of cigars from vendors sold into their own countries. Cigars are only expensive because governments, both less than free, and ones based on a pretense of being free, make them that way!!!

Like it or not, when you buy cigars over the internet and dodge your countries laws and tariffs you are buying 'black market' cigars. I am not saying that they are illegitimate cigars, the terms are often confused, but you are buying black market cigars. At the same time, when you buy these cigars you are supporting your free market best interests as well as the free market best interests of the vendor that sells them to you!

If you happen to believe that tobacco taxes benefit you and not the governments that charge them I have no words for you. God help you! Your government certainly won't!

Cheers! -Piggy

[fookite]

I believe in the free market. The free market means that when I support my best interests the other guys interests are served with me.

I believe in the Loch Ness Monster. One of our beliefs is demonstrably false.

[cigcars]

If it meant higher priced cigars from ending the embargo then so be it. And yes as a retiree, my budget is severely limited in what I can acquire these days of our beloved product anyway. But even if it meant that I could no longer acquire the premiums...I don't mind seeking out the native Cuban populace's "peso" smokes. They're pretty good, actually....although, if world wide and then U.S. demand mandated it, I'm sure even the Peso cigars could shoot up astronomically. But yes, I'd LOVE the prospect of being able to travel there, buy some of their OTHER products they have there too, you know. Cuban sugar and Cuban rum are purported to have nearly the same world wide fame as their tobacco. And of course, I DO hope that Piggy is correct in his observation that prices are likely to decrease. Who knows - MAYBE they would even bring back discontinued Habanos that some of us have mourned the loss of; Punch Black Prince, El Rey Del Mundo Tainos, Por Larranagas En Cedro, and so on. We will see...

[Wil]

I believe in the Loch Ness Monster. One of our beliefs is demonstrably false.

Lol

[Guest rob]

I think Rob is asking only a simple question, do you choose yourself or the other guy?

The reality of the proposal does not really enter into the question. It is hypothetical and delusional! It is just a direct question.

Spot on, Ray!

[LGC]

As long as the potential is there to benefit the welfare of the people, I'm good with that. If I can't afford cigars, I just won't buy them. Smoking cigars doesn't define me in any way. It is only a hobby to me, not a necessity. I would never think to value a cigar over a person's quality of life.

[Ken Gargett]

I'm sure JFK had strong morals, but he sent his aids out to stock up on his Cuban cigars before signing the embargo

he was a politician (morals, politics, mutually exclusive?), and he may well have been one of the better ones, but, he came from a family that made its wealth, great wealth, in all manner of criminal and dodgy enterprises. he cheated on his wife at every opportunity. the electoral 'escapades' that got him across the line in chicago seem suspect at best, more likely verging on corrupt. mind you, he was up against nixon so i have no problems with any of that. he used his position, as the above shows, to his personal advantage at the expense of the american people.

he has a long history of acting in a manner that i suspect most of us would not consider 'moral' (not all the time but surely enough). does he get a pass because he was a president, young, handsome, charismatic?

i have no doubt that had JFK not been shot while young and in office, he would seem as tawdry to us now as the rest of them. sadly.

bobby, on the other hand, just might have been that rare thing.

as for the question, my immediate thought was what a mate used to say, 'if my aunt was my uncle...'

[Skyfall]

the question I ask is ... the people are uplifted to what ??? the same economic standing as Honduras or Nicaragua (two American friendly states) ... Honduras and Nicaragua have less wealth and freedoms than cuba ... at least this was my observation when I was there .

derrek

Or the same economic standing as Costa Rica or Panama.

Or Detroit.....

[Dara]

i'd happily pay extra for my cigars and smoke less often if I knew that cuban people were benefiting from it!

[El Presidente]

Potentially, the lifting of the embargo would be like an incoming tide of money and opportunity.......lifting all.

Unfortunately the Cuban Government is like a Dyke/levee that brutally controls the natural forces. Controlling 99% of infrastucture and industry it would be the prime beneficiarry.

Lift it. Let an emboldened populace taste opportunity and success. Empower them to change the system in time.

As for cigars? let workers make a true living wage of $1500 a month. If they roll 175 cigars a day for 22 days it equates to $10 a box. We can live with that surely.