Need insights on all the different cuban blends

[Smallclub]

I'm not a believer in terroir. I think there is a major difference in quality based upon the level of organic materials in growing and fermentation. A few points are: the difference between store bought and backyard grown tomatoes; and the ability of a California wine to beat a Bordeaux.

Terroir and its specificity is a reality, it is measurable and quantifiable. It includes local savoir-faire, traditions, etc.

This is not an intellectual concept that one can believe or disbelieve.

[semery74]

Terroir and its specificity is a reality, it is measurable and quantifiable. It includes local savoir-faire, traditions, etc.

This is not an intellectual concept that one can believe or disbelieve.

It exists and I do not care to disprove that it has a roll. But it is not what makes CCs the king of cigars. I would venture to bet that Cubans can make a lousy cigar if they remove time and knowledge.

Does the definition of Terroir include the human element? Oxford and Merriam-Webster both do not define it that way.

[Smallclub]

Does the definition of Terroir include the human element? Oxford and Merriam-Webster doesn't define it that way.

Definitely. Extract from the french wiki:

Terroirs result from exploitation by a humane society of the potential of a physical space. Their definition is highly dependent on the character of civilization that occupied the land. Thus, in the same space, with potential and physical constraints identical, different human societies are likely to develop distinct terroirs.

[semery74]

I can respect your point of view on the meaning of Terroir. Soil can definitely be controlled and manipulated by man. But words have different meaning across various cultures. Please accept my usage and translation of the word as defined by Oxford.

[Smallclub]

Please accept my usage and translation of the word as defined by Oxford.

Doesn't make sense IMHO. It's a bit like looking for the meaning of "being cool" in a french dictionnary, or Gemütlichkeit in an italian dictionnary…

[Colt45]

I've no doubt terroir exists. But I've also no doubt that humans can manipulate tobacco, grapes / wine, etc,

decreasing or even negating it's impact on a final product if they care to.

[mk05]

It is conceptually hard for me to realize the lengths a blender must go through, in order to produce the same flavor of a cigar, when coming from a different source every time. (Can you imagine if your customer ordered a ginger scallion snapper, but all you had was cod? I bet Michel Bras could get somewhat close, but it would be far away from indistinguishable.) This precludes any possibility of a flavor treatment Cuban tobacco goes through - which is what I think is being implied, if not then please clarify - which gives the tobacco a certain flavor regardless of a vega/terroir, which makes blending very easy, and all a blender has to do thus is change the ligero, seco, and volado content to burn well, and produce a flavor at specific stages. I guess this could be possible without us knowing it, if you see any Cuban rolling videos, there are specific bunches of tobacco laid out to put in certain stages, who knows if they are treated with different flavors, instead of being the "art" that is blending...

I do know a certain Dominican producer sprays aqua vino on its cigars and a certain Nic producer mists cocoa into the leaf to fuse flavors; I just cannot fathom - or rather accept - that Cuban tobacco is "processed."

If wine places significance on terroir, I must submit that it does as well for tobacco. Think about this in big picture. People smuggled or brought back Cuban seed. The guys who left were pretty knowledgeable about Cuban tobacco, ran factories, brands, and most likely (definitely) knew the blends of certain cigars. So say one guy grew these seeds brought back from Pepto jars or whatever. And say he made this cigar that was supposed to taste like the Siglo series. Guess what, they were completely different.

Furthermore, Dominican puros taste completely different from Nicaraguan puros. Even Nicaraguan Esteli tastes different from Jalapa region cigars. I cannot discount the notion of terroir.

[cckandb24]

Man, I have been away for a bit and when I come back, My thread gets jacked. Cant leave you guys alone for a second

[geneticdrifter]

I cannot discount the notion of terroir.

You just did friend. You just did. As mentioned before (please don't make me get out the books) terroir also includes the human touch. From things as simple as how they prepare the soil, water it or process the final product. Whatever it may be; peaches, tobacco, grapes or fish. Some crops display more than other but most display some aspects of terroir.

[Wil]

Terroir and its specificity is a reality, it is measurable and quantifiable.

Really? My discussions with winemakers gave me the opposite impression.

[semery74]

A cigar devoid of tannin, either through time or creative failure, is merely left with the essence of terroir. Just as a vintner can discern one harvest from the previous by the means of taste through the bottle and cork, so can a cigar smoker surmise the origin of a vitola. This earthly essence is only the base element of flavor that cubans' utilize as a canvas to paint a much larger picture. Flavors such as Paprika, creamy, citrus, and stone fruit are not introduced through additives, but are formed through fermentation from dedicated species of yeast that form poly-phenol molecules which are building blocks to precise tastes and aromas. If it works in Beer, Wine, and Cheese it was bound to be recognized to work in Tobacco. There is an old document listed under the Serendipity Articles, one of them written by Odlum that defines a petuning liquid created as if it was yeast starter, cold brewing tobacco stems for several days. As anyone knows in wine there is wisdom, beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria. It takes decades for a cigar to diminish back to it's elemental terroir flavor. It only takes a few days for my chips to go stale. Do you think a spray on flavor smells of success? Or do you think a ripe tannin will last a lifetime?

[ramon_cojones]

Loved the crayon comment LOL!!!

[Michel1968]

Good reading from semery74! IMHO that is...

It's my opinion yeast is a very important factor (as it is with any product requiring fermentation) and from experiences outside cigars I've seen yeast has quite a definitive say about the end product, more than a large scale producer, who is looking for uniformity, is willing for.

Natural occurring yeast is a much part of the 'climat' as its soil contents as it is part of terroir. Do you choose to make use of natural yeast strains (which vary locally) or do you use an industrial strain? Will you be taking a risk ending up with a product which will differ from year to year? Every wine grower making use of natural occurring yeast strains will tell you those yeasts are as much part of the 'vintage' as the weather is. Or will you be going the route with an industrial strain that will give you a suitable, clean and uniform product that has lost a large part of its personality?

With the depth growth of tobacco plants (about two meters?) I don't see too many influences from the soil in terms of complexity (on micro scale - vegas located next to each other. Inter locally things will/might be different) Drainage capabilities and micro climate will have much bigger impact.

My thoughts are yeast is of massive influence on taste and define for a large part the character of tobacco coming from a cluster of vegas... Too bad second fermentation is done elsewhere (As I could read elsewhere in this great thread) as it would destroy much of the character. It would be great if the starter for second fermentation was created from yeasts from the original location - I guess that's wishful thinking.

[jedipastor]

Long thread, just a few comments:

--Wrapper has a HUGE impact on the flavor, body, and to a lesser degree strength of a cigar. How much depends on the blend, but in most cases is way more that 5%! Anyone who's smoked NCs can attest to this ... cigars with the exact same binder and filler but different wrappers are extremely different! Just take any recent Cuban LE wrapper and put it on a regular production stick you're familiar with ... seriously, try it!

I know some people insist that all Cuban cigars have the same exact wrapper and that only the blends differ, but that's just nonsense. QdO obviously use shade-grown wrappers and Bolivars use sungrown wrappers. If you don't believe me, try taking the wrapper off a PSD4 and using it to replace the wrapper on an HdM Epi #2.

--As to Hamlet's video, which I've seen before, I thought he was saying that the overall effect on a cigar's flavor from the wrapper can very among wrappers OF THE EXACT SAME TYPE. Therefore, when tasting the same types of wrapper, from one wrapper to the next there might be a difference, but that difference will be small. In other words, in a pile of wrappers that have all been sorted and approved for a specific cigar (like the ones he's rolling), there might be variances that will effect the end result for the cigars, but that's only going to be a difference of 8% or whatever. I do NOT think he's saying that if you put a Bolivar wrapper on a QdO it's only going to make the QdO taste 8% different (try it yourself).

--Where the tobacco is grown has a HUGE impact on the end product, as does the weather during the growing season itself (that's why some vintages are just better than others).

--I'm not sure about the idea that Cuba has "Cohiba farms" vs the theory that they just harvest everything and sort it out later. It would be hard to make a consistent product without consistency of growing region ... then again, many Cubans aren't very consistent, lol.

--I think the main problem with HSA's methods is not the leaf that grows in Cuba, it's what they do with it after it's chopped off the plant. The tobacco is excellent, their handling of it seems to be lacking (spotty fermentation practices, terribly inexperienced rollers alongside masters, etc.).

[Smallclub]

If you don't believe me, try taking the wrapper off a PSD4 and using it to replace the wrapper on an HdM Epi #2.

The wrappers on the D4 range from light, dry, greenish to dark, oily maduro through all intermediate grades… AFAIK there's no "typical" PSD4 wrapper…

[Colt45]

Man, I have been away for a bit and when I come back, My thread gets jacked. Cant leave you guys alone for a second

I guess it depends on how you look at it I tend to look at FOH as people having discussions versus an online bulletin board where people

simply post "stuff". Discussions sometimes do diverge from their original track.

I think it's been interesting. For those who use the wine analogy, I wonder what your thoughts are as to wine producers who chaptalize / fine /

filter / use sulphur, etc - how do you feel this might affect terroir?

[semery74]

Not all fermentation is created equal. Certain techniques are born by the mother of necessity. Brewers are not dosing their beer with sulphur dioxide, but they sure go heavy on the sugar sometimes. Especially those 12% alcohol beers. Again my belief is that terroir is limited to nature and it's elements but it may not end at harvest. Considering fermentation and aging could be apart of terroir. Considering that indigenous yeast to any area play a vital role in product character. Just as feta cheese can be made anywhere so can a Cuban cigar. Terroir can be reproduced either in a lab or production scale. It is just a matter of economics. Dominicans and nicuraguans may have plenty of Cuban and corojo seed but they lack the Fungus.

[Zigatoh]

Sorry, I missed the part where tobacco leaves ferment? Or where tannins are a part of the tobacco aging process?

[khomeinist]

Not all fermentation is created equal. Certain techniques are born by the mother of necessity. Brewers are not dosing their beer with sulphur dioxide, but they sure go heavy on the sugar sometimes. Especially those 12% alcohol beers. Again my belief is that terroir is limited to nature and it's elements but it may not end at harvest. Considering fermentation and aging could be apart of terroir. Considering that indigenous yeast to any area play a vital role in product character. Just as feta cheese can be made anywhere so can a Cuban cigar. Terroir can be reproduced either in a lab or production scale. It is just a matter of economics. Dominicans and nicuraguans may have plenty of Cuban and corojo seed but they lack the Fungus.

Complex environmental processes cannot be replicated in a laboratory or 'in situ' Dominican warehouse unless all of the determinants have been characterized and can be replicated precisely. With many complex products, it is virtually impossible to fully characterize and replicate environmental conditions. The variables interact in stochastic ways that can only be approximated given assumptions about the particular system.

I have little experience with tobacco cultivation, but as a ecologist by training, I have a lot of experience with 'replication of field conditions.' I sincerely doubt that Cuban cigars could be easily reproduced in alternative geographic locations. I am a firm believer in terroir, the inability of terroir to be approximated for complex products, and that simple analogies to cheese and beer (more obviously laboratory products) are not valid.

[Smallclub]

Just as feta cheese can be made anywhere so can a Cuban cigar.

But Roquefort or Camembert can not. btw feta is an industrial product, not a "produit du terroir"; it's not even made in Greece, but mainly in Danmark…

Terroir can be reproduced either in a lab or production scale. It is just a matter of economics. Dominicans and nicuraguans may have plenty of Cuban and corojo seed but they lack the Fungus.

These assertions are completely wrong.

And if the whole process was dependent on a specific yeast/fungus, why isn't that yeast/fungus grown in labs in Dom Rep. Nicaragua and Honduras?

[Colt45]

Again my belief is that terroir is limited to nature and it's elements but it may not end at harvest.

That's a great perspective, and I pretty much agree, especially in spirit. Aging (wine) might be a bit more curious for me as it pertains

to terroir - use of wood barrels, (or stainless steel) type of wood, size of barrel, duration of aging, etc. To me this is more human intervention

than a natural process. I'm also not sure I feel terroir could ever truly be produced in a lab. But please be sure it's all conversation.

Personally, I don't believe a cigar produced with leaf grown outside of Cuba, regardless of seed origin, could ever be called Cuban in any

way, shape, or form.

Sorry, I missed the part where tobacco leaves ferment? Or where tannins are a part of the tobacco aging process?

Tobacco fermentation is where the impurities are purged from tobacco leaf. Here is but one explanation of the post harvest process:

Link

Tannin (to me) are a natural part of tobacco, like tea or wine.

[CaptainQuintero]

It's an interesting point brought in in regard to 'feta can be made anywhere'. Just because you have the same raw materials as the traditional area it doesn't mean that you can reproduce anywhere near the same product. In the EU it's not legally possible to do the same thing as it has been judged that someone making say, champagne, not in the Champagne region cannot replicate the product to the same level of quality, infact to such a level that it is tantamount to fraud.

Unless it's made in Parma, you cannot legally market your product as Parma ham. Unless you make your cheese in Cheddar, you can't call it cheddar cheese. Unless you make your wine in Champagne, you can't call it champagne etc etc etc

If you glance at the above quickly you could be forgiven for saying it's just petty bureaucracy adding value to a product via legislation. However if you read into the individual products and history, traditions of how each is made. It's a law that protects not only the consumers to ensure they are getting the actual product they think they are buying, but also the producers in a way which legally recognises terroir and the importance it plays in developing a product.

[semery74]

Very stimulating gentlemen. It is a pleasure to have a civil conversation, seems lately things have been changing too rapidly.

[Wil]

That's a great perspective, and I pretty much agree, especially in spirit. Aging (wine) might be a bit more curious for me as it pertains

to terroir - use of wood barrels, (or stainless steel) type of wood, size of barrel, duration of aging, etc. To me this is more human intervention

than a natural process. I'm also not sure I feel terroir could ever truly be produced in a lab. But please be sure it's all conversation.

I agree. Perhaps the distinction between primary, secondary and tertiary characteristics in wine is useful here?

Primary - determined by grape variety (terroir?)

Secondary - influenced by wine making techniques

Tertiary - influenced by bottle aging

(no doubt our wine experts will correct me!)

[Zigatoh]

Tobacco fermentation is where the impurities are purged from tobacco leaf. Here is but one explanation of the post harvest process:

Link

Tannin (to me) are a natural part of tobacco, like tea or wine.

Nice link thanks hadn't seen much of the post growing - pre-rolling processes before.