Who said NCs were shit?

[gsmoke]

gsmoke...

I get your meaning, but FYI La Aurora is based in the Dominican Republic.

Yeah, that's what I meant. From what I've seen La Aurora makes much of it's Dominican heritage and doesn't try to conjure up any misleading Cubanesque references. Sorry for not being more clear.

[Stalebread]

It's difficult to get the same kind of numbers for the same years to do any comparison so I'm still trying to understand that 10%. The articles you linked to, Guy, are very interesting, nonetheless.

One says that "roughly 150 million" cigars a year are exported from Cuba. That number seems a little low to me but I don't know how current the info is. Maybe the number is higher now.

According to the Cigar Association of America, the US imported 271 million premium cigars in 2008. That number is down by about 15% from the year before. If machine-made cigars are added in, the number goes way, way up.

Where I'm trying to go is that if Cuba exports, let's say, 200 million a year now, and the US alone imports 271 million (non-Cuban premium) I don't see how that 10% number can hold up. It must be higher.

I do agree that " NC's still have work to do". By most accounts, however, the quality of tobacco and blending of non-Cuban cigars has made great strides over the last ten years or so. Not too long ago I had a conversation with the owner of one of the better known cigar shops in Paris. He is now in his late 70's and has been in the cigar business all of his life. He said that as far as he could tell, the gap between Cuban and non-Cuban cigars is getting smaller every year. That is, the non-Cubans are getting better, not that the Cuban are getting worse.

Also, the non-Cuban producers are doing more to push into the European market. The inlumino article says, "Just under 19 million non-Cuban cigars were imported into Germany in 2006." This is in the face of ,"serious impediments to the development of non-Cuban cigar consumption." Likewise, the article that examines the Cuban cigar industry concludes that any threat from competition is low to moderate.

In the current edition of the ECCJ, there are two small pieces about Oliva and La Flor Dominicana setting up European distribution. So, even if that low-to-moderate-threat assessment is accurate, the non-Cuban producers seem to be making, or are trying to make, inroads into the Cuban market.

Forget all the numbers and percents and Cuban vs non-Cuban, at the end of the day, it's an interesting and exciting time to be a cigar smoker!

.

[Stalebread]

Kangaroo, did you think your thread would go careening off in this direction?

[hsmunoz]

here's my personal experience,

I started smoking premium NC's , before CC's. Premium being a label on a box, and not necessarily what the contents were. As I worked through all the advertising, hype, CC copy brands, I figured out that much of what was out there was crap. Typical Corp marketing, followed by some hot chick in a bikini handing you a cigar, and then two days of mouthwash to get the stank out.

Then I filtered out ALL of the CC clone brands, and focused on the family names, and stuff that was NOT marketed as "just like cuban" . These folks want thier product to stand on it's own, and I found some gems that will always have a place in my humi.

Padron, once you get a liking to this profile, nothing else will do it. the 40th, 26's , 64's and 80th (my anniversary smoke) are stunning

Oliva V, talk about a great stick, and oh it's cheap!

VSG, illusion, or Sorcerrer, on the beach , priceless

Opus, way over hyped, and over marketed as "rare" , but strip all the BS and a 3 yr old Reserva de Chatuea is a stunner, but way overpriced

I also have a warm spot for Regional Puro's so that would include Cien Anos, Gran Puro, and Diez. At least they are trying to build a legacy from a specific region.

all that said, there a litterally thousands of other cigars, that rush the US market and I think they are crap. some blenders offer rediculous amounts of brands , so much so, they can't possibly care about the result. just utter crap.

in the end, I really have no interest in any NC other than the ones I mentioned. Might try one here or there, but that's it.

case in point, Casa Magna, seriously a 95, I think that reviewer was dislexic, but they had already printed the rag, and had to stick to it.

[Ginseng]

in their own right, I feel that there are some good...and a few, very good...non-Cuban cigars nowadays...but like all have said, they're just different and it's not a fair comparasion. it would be nice if the Cubans could follow in the footsteps construction wise like the NCs...but I'll still take a Cuban anyday

I think that just about encapsulates my thoughts on the matter.

I continue to, enjoy many of the same NCs that have already been mentioned here: Padron, Ashton VSG, a few Don Pepin creations, Oliva O and V, and some less well regarded lines.

In one sense, it's almost trite to say that NCs and Habanos are different. I think that on that broad statement, we can all agree. But that in itself says nothing about why the direction of growth is generally in the direction of NC -> Habanos and not the other way around. By NC standards and, more importantly, expectations of their performance, one can find great and poor NCs. However, as I smoked more and more Habanos, I embraced additional quality and performance characteristics (namely progression and development as the cigar is smoked down, and the sometimes not so subtle variations between vitolas/frontmarks of the same marca/line). In a sense, I added new expectations and sensitivities to my perceptions of quality and performance. I came to appreciate these and want these in my smoking. And so, naturally, NCs suffered by comparison. Partially because they are "different" but more importantly in the ways in which they differed.

For me, this solves the mystery of the "emergent Habanophile." Just as if one has enjoyed tenderloin all their lives and then one day begins to eat skirt, flank, or sirloin. All beef, to be sure, but so different in the sensory characteristics. Could one go back to eating the tender but relatively weaker, flavorwise, tenderloin exclusively? Not I.

Wilkey

[yossie]

Why don't you guys smoke pipes? It's different against cigar but better than most of cigars. XD

[tigger]

Why don't you guys smoke pipes? It's different against cigar but better than most of cigars. XD

Yossie-

I do smoke a pipe on occasion - usually in the autumn and winter, as they don't suffer from some of issues that cigars can in colder, dryer air.

Our opinions differ on pipe vs. cigar. I have yet to find a pipe tobacco that is as complex as, or evolves in the way that, most of the cigars I enjoy do.

Pipes are very enjoyable, but different to me - not unlike the difference between most Cuban and Noncuban cigars.

[Buch0]

Why don't you guys smoke pipes? It's different against cigar but better than most of cigars. XD

I'm with tigger on this aswell, I occasionally have a pipe in the colder times but find the experience nothing like that of smoking a cigar. Its closer to smoking a cigarette in the way that it does not evolve throughout the smoke nor do you get any of the complexity a good cigar may show.

I find it near impossible to compare the two on any sort of level.

[yossie]

Yeah, Pipe doesn't have complexity as great cigars do but We should consider the difference of pricings. and one more, I'm a Japanese and live there. I thus often eat Japanese meals which are not good with cigar but also nice with pipe.

[thechenman]

Yeah, that's what I meant. From what I've seen La Aurora makes much of it's Dominican heritage and doesn't try to conjure up any misleading Cubanesque references. Sorry for not being more clear.

np. Most likely due to my poor reading comprehensiion skills.

[thechenman]

here's my personal experience,

I started smoking premium NC's , before CC's. Premium being a label on a box, and not necessarily what the contents were. As I worked through all the advertising, hype, CC copy brands, I figured out that much of what was out there was crap. Typical Corp marketing, followed by some hot chick in a bikini handing you a cigar, and then two days of mouthwash to get the stank out.

Then I filtered out ALL of the CC clone brands, and focused on the family names, and stuff that was NOT marketed as "just like cuban" . These folks want thier product to stand on it's own, and I found some gems that will always have a place in my humi.

Padron, once you get a liking to this profile, nothing else will do it. the 40th, 26's , 64's and 80th (my anniversary smoke) are stunning

Oliva V, talk about a great stick, and oh it's cheap!

VSG, illusion, or Sorcerrer, on the beach , priceless

Opus, way over hyped, and over marketed as "rare" , but strip all the BS and a 3 yr old Reserva de Chatuea is a stunner, but way overpriced

I also have a warm spot for Regional Puro's so that would include Cien Anos, Gran Puro, and Diez. At least they are trying to build a legacy from a specific region.

all that said, there a litterally thousands of other cigars, that rush the US market and I think they are crap. some blenders offer rediculous amounts of brands , so much so, they can't possibly care about the result. just utter crap.

in the end, I really have no interest in any NC other than the ones I mentioned. Might try one here or there, but that's it.

case in point, Casa Magna, seriously a 95, I think that reviewer was dislexic, but they had already printed the rag, and had to stick to it.

hsmunoz...

Have you ever given Tatuaje a try?

[thechenman]

Why don't you guys smoke pipes? It's different against cigar but better than most of cigars. XD

Interesting question yossie...I have to say I spent some time around pipes, as my grandfather smoked a pipe will into his late 70s. He eventually gave it up and is now in his early-90s. I remember the enticing aroma of the tobacco burning in his pipe...to this day, I don't know the brand. However, the one thing I think that detracts me from it is the constant cleaning of the bowl and relighting. Seems like a lot of work when compared to a cigar.

[Colt45]

but more importantly in the ways in which they differed.

Some great posts on what can be a controversial topic (which has been discussed here a couple of times )

But I think that to me, Wilkey's above quote distills it to it's essence.

[Stalebread]

Some great posts on what can be a controversial topic (which has been discussed here a couple of times )

But I think that to me, Wilkey's above quote distills it to it's essence.

Two observations:

1) This board is civil in ways that many others are not.

2) Wilkey often writes things that I wish I would have had the insight to come up with.

One small point of his post I do question, however. When he writes, "And so, naturally, NCs suffered by comparison." I am not at all sure that it is "naturally." There is nothing inherent in NCs that makes them "suffer." That has as much to do with one's expectations, perception, experience, tastes, mood, etc., as anything else.

Now I seem to find myself (reluctantly) defending non-Cuban cigars. Not only do they not need me to defend them, but there is something else that draws me into these conversations like a moth to a flame. Not sure what it is.

.

[bobsled]

Ummm, yeah. Two different animals. There are good and bad in each. I do enjoy Padron Anniv, Ashton VSG, and used to enjoy Opus. Not so much now on the opus, some of them seem almost flavored to me. Nothing beats a good cuban though.

[Ginseng]

Two observations:

1) This board is civil in ways that many others are not.

2) Wilkey often writes things that I wish I would have had the insight to come up with.

One small point of his post I do question, however. When he writes, "And so, naturally, NCs suffered by comparison." I am not at all sure that it is "naturally." There is nothing inherent in NCs that makes them "suffer." That has as much to do with one's expectations, perception, experience, tastes, mood, etc., as anything else.

Now I seem to find myself (reluctantly) defending non-Cuban cigars. Not only do they not need me to defend them, but there is something else that draws me into these conversations like a moth to a flame. Not sure what it is.

Hey there. Thanks for your observations, and I agree. FOH is an unusual and unique place in the online cigar world. I think the key to the nature of the community and discourse here is the presence of a strong leader who can lead through the force of his character and informal as well as legitimate authority. He sets the tone, the members understand this and we're all united behind this vision. I've always been grateful to be a member and now I feel privileged to be a moderator. Goodness, so many warez and Viagra posts to read, enjoy, and quash.

Let me respond to your point about my use of the term "naturally." I use the term in this situation to describe the situation where characteristics, never before considered or experienced, emerge, are valued, and applied as new criteria for judging. By way of silly example: Imagine the case where one has always only judged the goodness of a book by the glossiness of the cover, the weight of the volume, and the smell of the paper in the pages. Now, one day someone suggests that you open the book and read the words on the inside. All of a sudden, now you're aware of things such as character development, plot progression, literary style, voice, pacing and rhythm, etc. Now, the glossy, weighty, perfumey books you once enjoyed for those characteristics, once read, are found to contain absolute schlock. To close out the analogy, the new books you enjoy might also have glossy covers, weigh a kilo, and smell of violets and sage, but they are absolute poetry inside and can transport you to places in the imagination that you never though a book could.

Bringing it back to cigars: I have always loved Padron Anniversary and Ashton VSG for the rich, dense, and powerful tobacco core. But they just don't evolve to any meaningful degree or in any interesting way. The nuance and complexity are static. I get a similar core experience with aged RyJ Cazadores, RASS, and Bolivar Coronas Gigantes but in addition, I also get movement and development to make them even more intriguing, dynamic.

So, the sense of "naturally" is: the absence of certain valued characteristics. The sense of "suffering" is: getting scored zeros on the tasting sheet because of the absence of these characteristics.

Having said that, there are times I choose to smoke a Padron over a Gigantes precisely because I know that it will dependably deliver what I want in a smoking experience. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of these choices. I merely seek to be satisfied by them.

Does this clarify my original post a little better?

Wilkey

[Stalebread]

Does this clarify my original post a little better?

Wilkey

OK. A little. For now.

A while back I had a La Flor Dominicana Especial Churchill, the one with the pigtail cap and oscuro wrapper. Probably close to three years old. Citrus and leather notes exchanging places every two or three puffs. Other, un-identifiable flavors peeking in from time-to-time. If it were a mystery novel, it would have been a real page-turner. The flavor intensity developed as I smoked. Strength increased but not overwhelming so. To me, a delightful, interesting smoke.

Given that, it's just that my experience does not match your observations about non-Cuban cigars "naturally" (?) not evolving "to any meaningful degree or in any interesting way." Although I certainly understand what you mean and have had both Cuban and non-Cuban cigars that failed to evolve in any way or even have much one-dimensional flavor. And, of course, my personal experience does not prove anything except that, well, it's my personal experience.

[El Presidente]

OK. A little. For now.

A while back I had a La Flor Dominicana Especial Churchill, the one with the pigtail cap and oscuro wrapper. Probably close to three years old. Citrus and leather notes exchanging places every two or three puffs. Other, un-identifiable flavors peeking in from time-to-time. If it were a mystery novel, it would have been a real page-turner. The flavor intensity developed as I smoked. Strength increased but not overwhelming so. To me, a delightful, interesting smoke.

Given that, it's just that my experience does not match your observations about non-Cuban cigars "naturally" (?) not evolving "to any meaningful degree or in any interesting way." Although I certainly understand what you mean and have had both Cuban and non-Cuban cigars that failed to evolve in any way or even have much one-dimensional flavor. And, of course, my personal experience does not prove anything except that, well, it's my personal experience.

I couldn't care less if a cigar is Cuban, Dominican, Mexican, or Norwegian.......I search, yearn for flavour and complextiy.

I have had some stellar NC's over the years. Few have maintained a level of excellence going forward. The original Borhani was brilliant as was the original LGC Wavel Maduro. They both ended up as pale immitations.

Criticism can legitimately be labelled at cuban cigars for inconsistency of construction and at certain periods blend. It is a fact of life because....lets throw a rough figure out there....30% of cigars rolled are affected negatively in one way or another.

Criticism can also legitimately be labelled at Non Cuban Cigars for lack of flavour complexity. Why? Just spend two days wandering the RTDA and tasting some of the crap that is pushed as being a cigar. The forumlae is Big + Dark+ Medium bodied + Cheap ($3) = Retail winner.

My experience is simply that the bulk of NC cigars (...and I will run at 90% +) show all the complexity of commercial white bread. I remember having a carlos Torano Reserva with freefallguy in Nicaragua earlier this year (as they say ...when in Rome) and after a half inch we just looked at each other and laughed.

Don't get me wrong, i am thrilled if the LFDC Especial Churchill you have smoked have developed true complexity. however that does not mean that the premise that NC's lack flavour complexity is mute. it is like having a box of perfectly drawing cubans and saying cubans don't have construction issues.

Cubans will stop being associated with construction issues when 95% draw perfectly.

Non cubans will stop being associated with lack of flavour complexity when 95% actually show some.

Just my 2 cents.

[OZCUBAN]

Well said Rob,

In my experience N C'S are overpriced and under flavored and show a definite lack of complexity.

just curious as to why the non cuban debate keeps popping up when this is clearly a Cuban Forum,would it not be akin to blogging on a ferrari forum that Porches are better

For me it is a simple formula Cuban or nothing

Cheers Oz

[Stalebread]

. . . just curious as to why the non cuban debate keeps popping up when this is clearly a Cuban Forum,

Hey. Hey! Don't look at me. I didn't start it. It wasn't me.

But I do get sucked into these conversations.

Your're right. It's clearly a Cuban Forum. But Cuban cigars are part of a much larger context. And sometimes it's fun and stimulating to look at the larger context. At least, it is for me. I apologize if my enthusiasm for the discussion has been inappropriate. As was alluded to earlier, this is one forum where this discussion can be had without guys getting all puffed up and calling each other names, making comments about each other's mothers and making absolute statements that close down the discussion.

But maybe it's time to find another topic.

[Kangaroo495]

Sorry I started it... Always had a habit of starting things then disappearing...

Anyway, I was hoping we would all get together and reaffirm the might of the CC - while sharing some experiences with NCs which we've had recently.

Think it turned out pretty interesting so far.

[tigger]

I think it's a fine discussion to have, and our host hasn't discouraged it to my knowledge.

I, for one, look forward to the day that the likes of Carlito Fuente, Jorge Padron, Ernesto Perez Carillo and Litto Gomez have access to tobacco from Vuelta Abajo.

[PigFish]

I couldn't care less if a cigar is Cuban, Dominican, Mexican, or Norwegian.......I search, yearn for flavour and complextiy.

I have had some stellar NC's over the years. Few have maintained a level of excellence going forward. The original Borhani was brilliant as was the original LGC Wavel Maduro. They both ended up as pale immitations.

Criticism can legitimately be labelled at cuban cigars for inconsistency of construction and at certain periods blend. It is a fact of life because....lets throw a rough figure out there....30% of cigars rolled are affected negatively in one way or another.

Criticism can also legitimately be labelled at Non Cuban Cigars for lack of flavour complexity. Why? Just spend two days wandering the RTDA and tasting some of the crap that is pushed as being a cigar. The forumlae is Big + Dark+ Medium bodied + Cheap ($3) = Retail winner.

My experience is simply that the bulk of NC cigars (...and I will run at 90% +) show all the complexity of commercial white bread. I remember having a carlos Torano Reserva with freefallguy in Nicaragua earlier this year (as they say ...when in Rome) and after a half inch we just looked at each other and laughed.

Don't get me wrong, i am thrilled if the LFDC Especial Churchill you have smoked have developed true complexity. however that does not mean that the premise that NC's lack flavour complexity is mute. it is like having a box of perfectly drawing cubans and saying cubans don't have construction issues.

Cubans will stop being associated with construction issues when 95% draw perfectly.

Non cubans will stop being associated with lack of flavour complexity when 95% actually show some.

Just my 2 cents.

I think that is a very good response Rob.

I differ some with the numbers, cigars after all are individuals and you never know what you are gonna' get. It is ones wisdom and experience that guides the smoker, at least potentially to the best ones.

My observation is that I care more about a great cigar than the manufactures do... all of them! Is this a surprise? No! As long as the world consumer will accept the status quo or less then he will get just that. I suppose that I have to consider myself at the top of this game, not that I am better than another consumer out there, I just appear to expect a lot more than most.

Overall I have a fighting chance at getting a good cigar when I buy one of Cuban provenance and I take care to use my experience to guide me to the best ones. Best for me of course are the ones that I like the best, not necessarily what the average consumer likes the best, what sells the best, etcetera.

You guys can pull out all the samples that you want but they are flukes. Yeah I said it. Mistakes! Just as the Cubans have legitimate problems with consistency and uniformity; generating an excellent cigar every time, so do the non-Cuban companies except their cigars, their great cigars are truly mishaps! Okay, I don't have mush experience with NC's anymore. The NC holy grail may exist and I would never know it; I am no longer searching. When one of you who has tastes similar to mine finds it... send me a PM!

The non-Cuban cigar industry has proven only one thing. The consumer will smoke **** when all there is, is **** to smoke! I think that this is what Guy was saying in his post and I believe it too. They have drawn down the world cigar industry and they are now taking the Cuban cigar industry with it. I mean why manufacture so many choices in good cigars when you can sell the consumer **** in a shiny box? That is the legacy of the non-Cuban cigar. Use modern marketing to sell it; like toilet cleaner and lip gloss, a gaslight to a moth and the ignorant consumer will come and buy with their eyes open and their taste buds turned off. The higher the price, the less the consumer expects of it; the more he will deny the reality of it. Can you deny it? Look at cigar ads today. If it were not for the subject matter they could be ads in magazines from Martha Steward, to Spin! I used to love the CAO ads. These bozos spend more time advertising their faces than the cigars; I mean like cheesy real estate agent cheesy. They look like a bunch of goths advertising a new vampire series on HBO! What can I say... and people buy this ****?

And guess what? The Cuban cigar industry, with new partners from the free world of marketing, they see this **** work, they recognize the power and glom onto the end of the rope. But instead of just making the shiny boxes and the use of Izod color schemes, they recognize that today's consumer expects little more from his cigar than the color of its box. If it is big and bold (looking) it must be big and bold tasting too!

Do I like nicely constructed and finished cigars? Why yes I do! But I would smoke rat bastard looking cigars if they were the best tasting. You see this is not an image thing to me. It is a taste thing. You see if I get a big beautiful red apple, perfect by all accounts, when it tastes like **** I will toss it and once more grab the little off colored one, cut out the worm and enjoy the best fruit over the best packaging. The fruit analogy is a good one. People today want a good looking tomato... not a good tasting one. They want a good looking peach or apple... not a good tasting one. When you pick the good looking fruit, like the good looking cigar (as in a non-Cuban cigar) you get a dud!

The non-Cuban cigar manufacturers are box makers! That is the gift they have given to the cigar world... cool boxes! I ask you then; what is the latest craze with Habanos? Cool boxes! Oh... don't forget big, expensive, lifeless cigars!

Nuf said! -The Pig

[Tampa1257]

I think it's a fine discussion to have, and our host hasn't discouraged it to my knowledge.

I, for one, look forward to the day that the likes of Carlito Fuente, Jorge Padron, Ernesto Perez Carillo and Litto Gomez have access to tobacco from Vuelta Abajo.

Boo Friggin Hiss, Staple your lips together and Pray this NEVER happens!!!!

[Jimmy2]

You all know what i think ...