OZCUBAN Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Man Gored to Death During Pamplona Bull Run Friday , July 10, 2009 PAMPLONA, Spain — For a bull, this one was on the smallish side, at just over a ton. And its name, Capuchino, sounded harmless enough, like coffee with frothy milk. But of the things that can go wrong when hordes of humans sprint with thundering beasts at Spain's most storied fiesta, the light brown bull did one of the most dangerous on Friday, straying from the pack, spooking and charging at anything that moved. The rogue bull gored a young Spaniard in the neck, the first fatality in nearly 15 years at Pamplona's running of the bulls. The victim was killed almost instantly as he scurried for cover under a wooden barrier, sliding under it feet-first. Had he dived headfirst, the experienced bull runner and son of a Pamplona native would probably still be alive. At least nine people were injured in the fourth of eight planned runs, illustrating the festival's extraordinary drawing power and global lure: two were Americans in their 60s, one of whom suffered a blow to the chest, one a Londoner aged 20, and another a young man from Argentina. The party went on despite the death, the 15th since record keeping began in 1924. The running of the bulls — made famous by Ernest Hemingway's novel "The Sun Also Rises" — has never been suspended just because someone has died in the mad, half mile (850-meter) dash from a holding pen to the city's bull ring. There, the same six bulls that run in the cool of the morning over cobblestone streets face off against matadors and the prospect of almost certain death in the afternoon. Ironically, on Friday, Capuchino was scheduled to go first. A minute of silence was to be observed in memory of the late Spaniard, identified as Daniel Jimeno Romero, 27, from Alcala de Henares, a town outside Madrid. On the social networking site Netlog, where condolences were being posted Friday, he described himself as a glassmaker who loves soccer and snowboarding. Friday's run got ugly quickly. Capuchino was running at the head of the pack at a hill leading up from the holding pen. The bulls go very fast at that point because their front legs are shorter than their hind ones, allowing them to run better on an incline than on level ground. Herders with sticks chased them, to keep them going. But 1,130 pound (515-kilo) Capuchino, about 200 pounds lighter than the biggest of the group, tripped over some runners and ended up lagging behind. The bulls run with six steers meant to keep them in a tight pack, and tend to mind their own business as long as they stay together. But a bull that gets separated is more likely to get frightened and aggressive, and that is what happened Friday, leading to chaos. "As the bull approached, it attacked runners seeking refuge at the fence," said Roberto Sanz, 43, a veteran Pamplona runner who was near Jimeno Romero when he died but did not witness it. Amateur video footage shows Jimeno Romero, wearing white pants and a brown-and-white striped shirt, trotting backward as he faced the oncoming bull and stumbling when other runners go down. He tried to squeeze under the fence, and was halfway there, when Capuchino caught him with a single swipe of his right horn. Jimeno Romero began bleeding profusely and was tended to quickly by medics as he lay with his eyes half open. Later, when Capuchino reached a stretch right outside the bullring, he started charging right and left, and ran back the wrong way several times. Runners sprinted to wooden barriers along the route for safety as the bull attacked. Herders tried in vain to guide it into the ring, yanking on the animal's tail to turn it around. This went on for a minute and a half, which is an eternity at the San Fermin festival. Fast runs — the whole sprint — can end in just over two minutes. At one point the bull picked one man up with its horns and flipped him into the air as if he were a toy, then kept going after him as he lay curled up on the ground, covering his face. He got up and ran away, and was apparently not seriously hurt. "It was a light bull. Its charges were not particularly strong but it moved very fast from left to right," one of the bull herders, Humberto Miguel, told The Associated Press. "Of the whole pack, it was the one that gave us the most trouble." The bulls used in Friday's run, from a ranch called Jandilla, have a reputation for being fierce at San Fermin. They hold the record for the most gorings in a single run — eight, one day in 2004. The last fatal goring at the running of the bulls was that of 22-year-old American Matthew Tassio in 1995. Then, the problem was not a stray bull but a fatal mistake by Tassio: after falling, rather than stay on the ground and wait for the pack to pass over, he stood up and faced the animals. A bull's horn hit him right in the chest. In 2003, a 63-year-old Spanish man, Fermin Etxeberri, was trampled in the head by a bull and died after spending months in a coma. Fatalities are relatively rare and when one occurs, it serves as a reminder that amid all the street parties and revelry associated with San Fermin, running with fighting bulls is a life-risking exercise. Oz: Nice to see the bulls get one back!... Personally i think bull fighting etc should be banned only for the simple fact that it is Cruel and i have spanish ancestry Thats my ***** for the week Cheers oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKA27 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 It is a shame to hear that someone has lost their life over something so stupid. Seeing this event every year on the news, grown men running throughout narrow streets, defying death or permanent injury is so pointless. I am all for 'Dare devil' stuff but it would have to have something more rewarding in it other than myself running down a street from some animals. I seen the pictures/footage of this young man bleeding out, it's such a terrible waste of life.... Regardless, may he rest in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Presidente Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Oz I assume you are a vegetarian Let me be a Bull reared for the run or ring (3-5 years of pampering) than a cow for the slaughterhouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZCUBAN Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 OzI assume you are a vegetarian Let me be a Bull reared for the run or ring (3-5 years of pampering) than a cow for the slaughterhouse. NO way I love my meat I am just against unnecessary Cruelty to animals, oh and Humans to,don't get me wrong i feel sorry for this man and his family, but this exercise seems so pointless and its a good topic to stir the pot Oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 NO way I love my meat I am just against unnecessary Cruelty to animals, oh and Humans to,don't get me wrong i feel sorry for this man and his family, but this exercise seems so pointless and its a good topic to stir the pot Oz for some reason, i seem to have been painted as the bleeding heart, left wing, sensible shoes flag waver of the forum (it terrifies me to think that this could be because others hold more extreme views than myself) but on bullfighting being unnecessary cruelty, rob is spot on with the five years of pampering. they are looked after like kings for all their life bar a few minutes, and even then, have a chance of freedom. they are treated infinitely better than vast numbers of humans. the argument is still, well it is cruel then to have the fight. possibly but not only would these bulls not enjoy a life of luxury, they would not even exist. they are bred for this purpose. no one will breed them if bullfighting is banned. that will be it. i see bullfighting as an integral part of spanish culture. loved the last one i went to. at one stage it was bulls two, humans one (just because i support the right of the spanish to hold bullfights doesn't mean i'm not cheering for the bull), though at least one of the humans recovered. the other still on the edge when i left spain a week later. apparently loud cheering for bull is considered poor form. always wanted to run with the bulls, ever since i was about 12. very sad that someone was killed during it but you take your chances and if one thinks about it, a dumb thing to do. if there is absolutely no risk involved in the running with the bulls, then why hold it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Presidente Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 NO way I love my meat I am just against unnecessary Cruelty to animals, oh and Humans to,don't get me wrong i feel sorry for this man and his family, but this exercise seems so pointless and its a good topic to stir the pot Oz I have run Pamplona. My father has run it 16-18 times. I love the Pamplona Festival. It is a part of Navarra/Pamplona history. Why take it away? People have always died or been hurt yet no-one puts a gun to their head to run. The risks are well understood. We all drive cars and more people die in Brisbane over a week in accidents than in the bull run in 20 years? Cruelty to animals? Have you been to a piggery, a poultry farm...an abbatoir? The bulls bred in Spain for purposes of the run and the arena are magnificent animals. Take this avenue away and they would not be bred at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuma Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Did you know that a fighting bull has a chance of making it out alive?... occasionally, a matador or the audience may feel that the bull has fought with extraordinary bravery, and they may petition the president of the plaza (on certain events, the King himself) to grant the bull a pardon (indulto). The bull’s life is then spared and allowed to return to his glorious life in the ranch where it came from (and this is indeed a great honour to the ranch where it came from). When the pardon is granted, the president waves an orange handkerchief, and a ritual symbolic death is simulated using a banderilla (flag) or done with an empty hand... Apart from the pardoning of the presidential turkey, what are the chances of a cow/sheep/chicken/pig/turkey (bred for the table of masses) making it out alive? even if the killing is done in private, it is still a kill... and damn the torture some chooks are made to suffer for cheap eggs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Did you know that a fighting bull has a chance of making it out alive?... occasionally, a matador or the audience may feel that the bull has fought with extraordinary bravery, and they may petition the president of the plaza (on certain events, the King himself) to grant the bull a pardon (indulto). The bull’s life is then spared and allowed to return to his glorious life in the ranch where it came from (and this is indeed a great honour to the ranch where it came from). When the pardon is granted, the president waves an orange handkerchief, and a ritual symbolic death is simulated using a banderilla (flag) or done with an empty hand... Apart from the pardoning of the presidential turkey, what are the chances of a cow/sheep/chicken/pig/turkey (bred for the table of masses) making it out alive? even if the killing is done in private, it is still a kill... and damn the torture some chooks are made to suffer for cheap eggs... absolutely. as mentioned above, a luxury life and a small chance of escape. there is another way and that is if the bull completely disgraces itself (bringing great shame on the breeder and his family and not a little on the matador) and does not fight. it is rare but i saw it in barcelona. they have to bring half a dozen oxen in and they run around the ring and then the bull trots out with them (as you can imagine, getting a large bull out of the ring alive - not easy - can't really stand by the door going, 'here bull, nice bull'. all that said, i don't imagine such a bull has any fate other than the butchers. the one i saw was very funny as one of the oxen brought in to lead the bull out decided that it wanted to stay and fight. not even the old timers had seen that before. it was very funny (though at that stage, we had two gored matadors, and an idiot in the stands cheering the bulls, so less laughing than you might expect). what was much crueller was in the old days, no protection was provided for the horse of the fighter on the horse (toredor or picador??). hence, the horses used tended to be those making a brief stop on the way to the glue factory as very few survived. they were almost all gored to death by the bulls. eventually they bought in solid protection for the horse (tho i believe papa H disapproved). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 bullfighting books - as well as 'death in the afternoon' and 'the sun also rises' to a lesser degree if you are purely after bullfighting, there is a magnificent book called 'or i'll dress you in mourning' about the life of el cordobes', a famous bullfighter who died in the ring. stunning story intertwines the last fight with his amazing life and the unbelievable poverty of spain around the time of the civil war. riveting. written by Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins - they also wrote 'is paris burning' and 'freedom at midnight'. the latter is the story of indian independence. it is ten times more compelling than almost all thrillers i have read. great stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZCUBAN Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 I have run Pamplona. My father has run it 16-18 times. I love the Pamplona Festival. It is a part of Navarra/Pamplona history. Why take it away? People have always died or been hurt yet no-one puts a gun to their head to run. The risks are well understood. We all drive cars and more people die in Brisbane over a week in accidents than in the bull run in 20 years? Cruelty to animals? Have you been to a piggery, a poultry farm...an abbatoir? The bulls bred in Spain for purposes of the run and the arena are magnificent animals. Take this avenue away and they would not be bred at all. Rob Was unaware of this, point taken,abbatoir etc also point taken, was basically stirring the pot i.e agent provocateur maybe shouldn't have posted in first place Oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZCUBAN Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 bullfighting books - as well as 'death in the afternoon' and 'the sun also rises' to a lesser degree if you are purely after bullfighting, there is a magnificent book called 'or i'll dress you in mourning' about the life of el cordobes', a famous bullfighter who died in the ring. stunning story intertwines the last fight with his amazing life and the unbelievable poverty of spain around the time of the civil war. riveting. written by Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins - they also wrote 'is paris burning' and 'freedom at midnight'. the latter is the story of indian independence. it is ten times more compelling than almost all thrillers i have read. great stuff. Thanks for the book advice will give them a look if i can cheers mate Oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Japan Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I'm definitively for the keeping it. And I also plan to organize a visit of the Club there in teh near future together with Rob. It was a promise we made in Nice.You remember Rob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padrino Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I ran Pamplona just after turning 18 and to be completely honest you're in more danger of being stampeded by humans than the actual bull. Basically you're in a mob that's hurtling down a narrow street and if you even slow down you trip and run the risk of errant foot snapping your neck. Now and again a bull will zone in on some target and make a run for him, as the old saying goes you roll the dice you play the game. If you're afraid of dying then it's simple, don't do it. What's the world coming to, it's not even politically correct to die on live TV these days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt45 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Though I'm not big on bull fighting, I'm surely not against it. I'd be for banning it as much as I would the eating of meat, guns, books, or the smoking of cigars. Go Toro!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I just got back from Spain on Saturday, the spanish news doesn't hold back with its coverage of the gorings at the bull run, they seem to relish in closeups. I didn't make it to a bullfight this time but have been for the last couple of years. My wife enjoyed the one she was at but one was enough for her. It's a great spectacle. While there's no denying that the bull suffers, there's so much to bullfighting, culturally, economically etc., that there is a far more complex argument than an "It's cruel so ban it" approach. As for some bulls putting on a good enough show to be spared, I have heard of this but none of the 16-20 bulls I've seen in the ring made it. Two bulls I witnessed dispatched their opponents (the guys were OK but had to be carried off to an ambulance), at least one of those bulls still put up a very good fight, it took four guys to tire him out enough for the kill. So, other than take the mayor hostage, I'm not sure what the bull would have to do to make it out. There's no guarantee the bull could survive anyway, by the time the main guy gets to him for the last act of the fight, the picadores (big horse-mounted chaps with pikes) have speared him in the neck and shoulder muscles for a good five minutes to weaken him. Not to mention what state the animal's heart must be in after all that. I would recommend seeing one to anyone (except children, mine still believe animals can talk), then decide. What I can say is, it's the best place in the world to have a cigar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van55 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I think bullfighting is as barbaric and repugnant as cock fighting and dog fighting. That said, I would not attempt to impose my personal views in this regard on the cultures of Spain and Mexico and wherever else bullfighting is a part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechenman Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I've never been to a bullfight, or the running of the bulls, or to Pamplona for that matter, but would relish to oppoortunity to be able to do any of the above. While on can argue that it is not the most humane treatment of animals, there is also something to be said about the cultural aspects of it. Mankind should evolve, but cultures should not forget their roots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiley Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Despite the fact that I am of Basque ancestry, I have no real interest in going to a bull-fight, but I don't support banning them. As far as the run goes, people like mortally dangerous activities to partake in. There's thousands of choices, such as rock climbing, sky-diving, messing with sharks and snakes. I'm completely unclear why one should be banned while the rest remain. As far as bull-fighting goes, I am an unabashed animal lover, but I can't deny the reasoning that these animals live a far better life than those we use for food. They also have a far better death than most we use for food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habanos2000 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I work in the food industry and have had my share of slaughterhouse tours. While I'm not a fan of watching animals being put to death either for sport or for food, it's not up to me to control what others do that doesn't affect me directly and I wouldn't want to be dictated to either based on other's personal feelings on a particular subject. PS, I always root for the bulls in Pamplona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I think bullfighting is as barbaric and repugnant as cock fighting and dog fighting.That said, I would not attempt to impose my personal views in this regard on the cultures of Spain and Mexico and wherever else bullfighting is a part of it. difference with those two is that they are animal v animal rather than man v animal and small as it may be, the bull has a chance (and i suspect that someone more familiar with the activity - i do struggle a little to hear it called sport - could explain that difference better than i am able). whereas i find someone putting a bullet into a wild animal from a distance as utterly prehistoric as one could imagine. barbaric and repugnant indeed, but we have probably covered this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrink Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 My heart goes out to all the men who've been gored to death at the bath house across from Czar's. I'm not sure if any of them are given a reprieve, no matter how much applause they garner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 My heart goes out to all the men who've been gored to death at the bath house across from Czar's. I'm not sure if any of them are given a reprieve, no matter how much applause they garner. shrink, there are days when i wonder if you might be on the wrong side of the couch.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laficion Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Hi Aficionados, I can't say much on this suject because here in my region of the south of France, It's a very cultural thing, all I can say is, If anyone doesn't agree with bullfights or any thing that goes with events concerning bulls, this is really not the place to come to. No one is forced to attend such events. It's called Freedom to chose. There's a time in life where you have to take your own responsibilities and not depend on laws to tell you what you can or can not do. LOOK AT CIGAR SMOKING, and you'll see how things can become very stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habanos2000 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Hi Aficionados,I can't say much on this suject because here in my region of the south of France, It's a very cultural thing, all I can say is, If anyone doesn't agree with bullfights or any thing that goes with events concerning bulls, this is really not the place to come to. Although I'd pass on attending the bullfight, I would kind of enjoy passing young ladies around like those guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZCUBAN Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 Although I'd pass on attending the bullfight, I would kind of enjoy passing young ladies around like those guys! Habanos 2000, well what can i say a man after my own heart , does not have to be confined to bullfighting a blind cigar challenge will do cheers oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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