Cyber truck.

[99call]

7 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

There's a lot if's in that and the companies that could make such a car are not doing it for a reason.

Money...my original outset was that making huge electrical tanks is a bullshit perversion of the need. It's like asking why BP are not investing enough in green energy. They look after shareholders etc not the people. My interests would be good quality utilitarian green EVs that improve people's and the planets life. To me the cyber truck is the antithesis of that..it's a massive chocolate fireguard. There is a difference between there not being a market, and the possible suppliers not wanting to serve of grow  that market.  

[BrightonCorgi]

6 hours ago, 99call said:

Money...my original outset was that making huge electrical tanks is a bullshit perversion of the need. It's like asking why BP are not investing enough in green energy. They look after shareholders etc not the people. My interests would be good quality utilitarian green EVs that improve people's and the planets life. To me the cyber truck is the antithesis of that..it's a massive chocolate fireguard. There is a difference between there not being a market, and the possible suppliers not wanting to serve of grow  that market.  

Not sure if you are aware, but these are for profit companies.  Your interests may not be in the stockholder's interests.

[Bijan]

I'm in Canada and no car will go much over 20 years here because it will rust right through.

I went from a 2003 Toyota Echo to a 2018 Tesla Model 3 in October 2018. I have put 145,000 km on it since. And battery capacity is about 92% of when new.

My wife went from no car to used Kia Soul EV 2016 we got it in 2019, with about 130,000 km on the odometer. I think we're at 190,000km on the Kia now. It was driven by a taxi company and the battery was replaced under warranty before we got it. (It has a much smaller battery, with no thermal management so did not survive the multiple fast charges per day that the taxi company put it through).

 

7 hours ago, djrey said:

Flipping to the latest and greatest electric car may not be a concern for many wealthy adopters (the majority of electric vehicle owners). But how about middle and lower income classes that see their car as an investment and plan on it lasting 10-15 years? Also, many claim the environment to be a factor of buying an electric car. Hope they aren't planning on swapping it out every few years then as that certainly doesn't align with their supposed views. 

This is exactly the situation with gas cars. People switch cars every 3-4 years. The middle and low income people benefit from the used market. Until I got my Tesla I had never paid more than $8k for a car. And usually paid around $3-$4k.

Unfortunately there are no 10 year old used EVs because they didn't exist in numbers back then.

In 10-15 years there will likely be used EVs under $5,000.

[jazzboypro]

Been driving my EV for the past 3 years, i personally would not go back to a gas engine. I'm in the province of Quebec and electricity  is fairly cheap compared to other places (it costs about 300$ of electricity for 20k Km). Of course EV's is not the solution for every use cases but it works for me. With 410 Km autonomy i don't have to worry about the battery running and for those who claim/pretend there is a 50% drop in autonomy in cold weather i can tell you that it's not the case with my car (Kona) and living in Montreal we have harsh winters, 27% drop is the most i have seen so far and this is not an issue for me. Your mileage may vary (no pun intended)

[SCgarman]

36 minutes ago, Bijan said:

This is exactly the situation with gas cars. People switch cars every 3-4 years. The middle and low income people benefit from the used market. Until I got my Tesla I had never paid more than $8k for a car. And usually paid around $3-$4k.

Unfortunately there are no 10 year old used EVs because they didn't exist in numbers back then.

In 10-15 years there will likely be used EVs under $5,000.

Or they might not exist at all. Who can afford replacement batteries at 20K+ parts/labor? How do you dispose of spent batteries? Bury them in a hole? FWIW there are not enough minerals under ground to even replace all gas/diesel engined vehicles with EV's. Batteries apparently last 5 years. We have four vehicles in the stable. 2010 Honda Goldwing, 2004 Chevy Blazer, 2015 Chrysler minivan, 2017 Chevy cruze. All well over 3-4 years old. Sorry, I'm not interested in any EV's and have no plans to ever own one at 57 years old. BTW, here in the US, EV's are sitting on car lots collecting dust. What does that tell you?

[Bijan]

24 minutes ago, SCgarman said:

Or they might not exist at all. Who can afford replacement batteries at 20K+ parts/labor? How do you dispose of spent batteries? Bury them in a hole? FWIW there are not enough minerals under ground to even replace all gas/diesel engined vehicles with EV's. Batteries apparently last 5 years. We have four vehicles in the stable. 2010 Honda Goldwing, 2004 Chevy Blazer, 2015 Chrysler minivan, 2017 Chevy cruze. All well over 3-4 years old. Sorry, I'm not interested in any EV's and have no plans to ever own one at 57 years old. BTW, here in the US, EV's are sitting on car lots collecting dust. What does that tell you?

Not sure about EV main batteries but lead acid batteries in all cars are close loop recycled with 99% materials reused. Probably the single most efficient recycling loop in all manufacturing.

Batteries last 5 years would be odd as my car is 5 years old now.

I have 2 EVs 2018 Tesla and 2016 Kia soul EV.

 

[djrey]

3 hours ago, Bijan said:

This is exactly the situation with gas cars. People switch cars every 3-4 years. The middle and low income people benefit from the used market. Until I got my Tesla I had never paid more than $8k for a car. And usually paid around $3-$4k.

Unfortunately there are no 10 year old used EVs because they didn't exist in numbers back then.

In 10-15 years there will likely be used EVs under $5,000.

I'm not quite sure there will be a market for the car you describe. Who would want it without a new battery? (Lets ignore the list of other electronics that would also likely be failing). Or at the very least a battery that was replaced within the past 5 years. Just one example, a Tesla Model 3 battery costs $13,000 to replace, the industry average right now is between $5k and $20k for EV battery replacement. Warranty average on the battery is 8 years or 100k miles. A battery replacement on an EV in the time frame you are talking about would total the car. I will take a well taken care of Japanese car with 200K miles on it all day over a 10 year old EV. 

Gasoline engine vehicles have the potential to change hands many more times than do EV's due to the above. 

 

2 hours ago, SCgarman said:

Or they might not exist at all. Who can afford replacement batteries at 20K+ parts/labor? How do you dispose of spent batteries? Bury them in a hole? FWIW there are not enough minerals under ground to even replace all gas/diesel engined vehicles with EV's. Batteries apparently last 5 years. We have four vehicles in the stable. 2010 Honda Goldwing, 2004 Chevy Blazer, 2015 Chrysler minivan, 2017 Chevy cruze. All well over 3-4 years old. Sorry, I'm not interested in any EV's and have no plans to ever own one at 57 years old. BTW, here in the US, EV's are sitting on car lots collecting dust. What does that tell you?

I work for BMW and we see the first round of i3's from around 2016 and 2017 come through all the time with about 80ishK miles on them and hit the lot for 18K. That was originally a $55K plus car. Massive depreciation because nobody wants them. Meanwhile a 2017 Tacoma comes through the other day with 80K on it and hits the lot for $5K under MSRP and sells in a week. I know what situation I would rather be in if I were trading/selling my car. 

I think those that financed/purchased their EV's are going to be in for a very sad day when they go to trade/sell. A big wake up call compared to what's been sold to them by the govt. I do think the reality of it is slowly catching on, however. Many of BMW's new EV's are hitting the lot and sitting (at least here on the east coast). If I recall correctly, I think it was Ford that just put a $10k discount of their EV trucks as they just sat on the lot. 

 

I will also say the whole EV vs gas shouldn't even have to be a discussion/argument. It should be drive whatever the F*** makes you happy and makes sense for you. But unfortunately, like everything else now days its politicized and left leaning govts have interest in pushing the agenda for more EV's and the electric grid. Whether or not you want to drive an electric car should be up to the consumer. That is fading which I think causes much of the discourse. 

Laissez Faire.. 

[Bijan]

58 minutes ago, djrey said:

I'm not quite sure there will be a market for the car you describe. Who would want it without a new battery?

My wife's car has battery with 100 miles of range when new. My car got 310 miles of range when new.

My car is at 287 miles of range now (after 145,000km on the odometer). At 70% it would be at 217 miles of range (maybe after 400,000 or 500,000 km).

There's still a market for EV's like my wife's with 70 miles of range. So I don't see at what point my car would become worthless on the second hand market.

[99call]

6 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Not sure if you are aware, but these are for profit companies.  Your interests may not be in the stockholder's interests.

Jesus Christ. Upmann HC exist in the same world as Behikes. Is it so terrible that there may be a market for a stripped down, utilitarian, affordable  electric car? There is a huge market at the moment, that actively don't want to select wasteful options. i.e. Air con ....get rid of it!......heated seats...get rid of it!. leather trim...  etc etc. Is there not a market that exists in the car enthusiast world who idolise stripped down stock cars?...i.e. built for speed and handling. What would be the problem in following the concept of a very basic, stripped down, efficient, light, small,  EV?.   

Surely if a car contains less tech/material, it can be cheaper to make, and cheaper to sell?

I think you may have predetermined me to be some sort of preachy treehugger, who want to tell you how to live. That's not the case as all If you wanted to drive around a solid gold Humve, you go right ahead and fill your boots. My comment much like the utilitarian nature of the Upmann HC, it's a success, and there is a market, and it gets served (sort off) and the price is fair (in comparison to other CC"s). If someones personal preference was a stripped down electric Messerschmit, etc, and their lifestyle only succeeds in creating more tolerance in climate goals, for you to enjoy living your life. Whats the harm in that?

I appreciate the car culture in America may promote the car as a status symbol to a much much greater degree, etc but I'm not talking about America. 

If you think the Cyber Truck makes market sense then we will have to agree to disagree. It's seems to be hated by both the right and the left. My vision is a world of with huge diesel trucks for those that want them, and low impact affordable EV's for people the don't care about cars. but want to get around. Huge stainless steel plated EV trucks seems to be what nobody wants.

[Bijan]

To me complaining about battery replacement costs is like complaining about engine replacement costs on a regular car. No one does it. How many people put in a new engine to keep a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla going beyond 500,000 miles?

If the battery lasts for the life of the car, then it is what it is.

[BlueRidgeFly]

Re: battery longevity - not sure how EVs compare with hybrids, but we've had three Toyota Prius models, put around 200,000 miles on each. When we got the first one, a friend asked how much a battery replacement would cost. That concern was why he would never buy a hybrid. We've never had a problem with the charging system or had to replace anything. The 2010 we still have still gets 45+ mpg highway, 60 city.

I do think more hybrids are the smart way for the industry to go right now vs. EVs. And hydrogen tech like Toyota is considering might become the best option.

But have to say the one time I rode in a Tesla I was impressed. The owner said it cost about $5.00 to charge it to run 300 miles (this was in Jacksonville, Florida). Very little maintenance, no oil changes... FAST as hell, seemed well made. Lots of appeal.

Roaming around dirt roads in the US makes my Toyota Tacoma the best option for me right now and for a long while though. And oh yeah... the Cyber truck is the ugliest f****** thing I've ever seen 😀

[LLC]

I work in the automotive industry and electric cars are not all they are hyped up to be. A disposable product at best that is worse for the environment in many ways than its gasoline counterparts. The depreciation of these vehicles is wild as technology rapidly advances at a much faster rate than internal combustion does. Just like your iPhone, a few years down the road you are already obsolete with a 70% battery retention. Go try to sell your iphone 11 and see what you get.
Flipping to the latest and greatest electric car may not be a concern for many wealthy adopters (the majority of electric vehicle owners). But how about middle and lower income classes that see their car as an investment and plan on it lasting 10-15 years? Also, many claim the environment to be a factor of buying an electric car. Hope they aren't planning on swapping it out every few years then as that certainly doesn't align with their supposed views. 
I overlook the level two chargers at work and admire the EV owners who find the time in the middle of the day to pull up and charge as they read or take an hour long nap. Guess an 8 hour long work day isn't their thing. 
The push for EV is no doubt politically driven with the motive to shove it down consumers throats as most manufacturers are being strong armed into increasing their fleet MPG's via less reliable EV's and 4 cyl turbos. The future is hydrogen but the past 10-15 years should have been spent looking into making more efficient hybrids and diesels, which were easily making over 40 mpg in our 3 series Wagons. 
I for one do not have the money to keep replacing cars or drive out of my way to hang out at charging stations. I have a Toyota Tacoma with a manual transmission. A vehicle that will have no issue going 10, 15 ,20 years and well over 500k miles. That to me in environmentally friendly. 
Also a good article -
2023-10-TrueCostofEVs-BennettIsaac.pdf (texaspolicy.com)

I have zero interest in any electric car but anyone that wants one should lease and not buy for many of the reasons you point out. Buying one for most people would be a big mistake.


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