El Presidente Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 The lads raised this over the cigar deck session last week. One was being threatend to be taken to Fair Work Commission for unfair discrimination against a sales team leader who works remotely. The company has had three promotions in that department since the end of covid and each of them have gone to staff who work predominantly full time from the office. The majority of staff have three choices. Remote/full time in office/4 consistent days in office and one remote. CEO's position is simply that given performance levels are the same, he would prefer the promotion to go to someone who is coming into the office, and simply for reasons of ongoing development, collaboration and relationship building opportunities with himself and other senior members. Is the zoom ceiling (promotion) a reality in certain fields? In your eyes is it legit? I will let you know of the outcome of the FWC hearing should it proceed. I love cigar deck Friday's
BoliDan Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 Sounds valid to me. Maybe our lawyer friends can jump in if you're allowing remote work you can't pick favorites. But I'd be more inclined to give promotions to people I could see physically as well. I have a friend who was a federal judge and he says never go the discrimination route because it's just too hard to prove. 2
Popular Post Bri Fi Posted June 12, 2023 Popular Post Posted June 12, 2023 Why are people still working remotely if an office is open? I would say the majority of time people in the office would be more productive. Human nature. To answer the question, I would absolute be more willing to promote those who are in the office. I’m not even sure how you can evaluate employee performance if you don’t observe them work. 2 3
PigFish Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 If work cannot be quantified, the job is questionable in the first place. Work Nazis! What the hell happened to getting a new job when you are not satisfied? Ah…. Yes. That was before socialism! Meritocracy is dead. Everyone gets a trophy! 1
MrBirdman Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Bri Fi said: I would say the majority of time people in the office would be more productive. This depends on the person, the job, a lot of factors. The only reason law firms are bringing people back three or four days a week is to ensure younger associates get mentored properly, because senior associates/partners generally bill far more hours working remotely. I’m one of the people very resistant to full time 100% in person work (although I don’t like 100% remote either). What “opponents” fail to realize is that it’s not the office we’re looking to avoid - it’s the commute. I commute to Philly four days a week right now, roughly an hour each way assuming typical traffic. I would look for another career before going to five times a week (four is bad enough). Aside from the stress my commute creates, it’s an enormous waste of time. Even if I spend the entire difference doing things for myself like exercising or sleep, that’s still making me more productive for my on hours. And in practice most white collar workers put a portion of the time savings to work. Also, most people outside cities have little recourse to public transit. Fewer car commute days = less pollution, less wear and tear on the roads, and fewer early deaths from road rage. There are certainly costs to 100% remote work in many areas/positions. But if you can’t get all your group meetings and interpersonal collaboration done during 3 in-person days a week, you’re the one using employee time inefficiently. 2
El Presidente Posted June 12, 2023 Author Posted June 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Bri Fi said: I’m not even sure how you can evaluate employee performance if you don’t observe them work. KPI's if the role permits it. In the case raised Friday, it is a more a matter of how important is "being physically seen" when it come to promotions. Hence the term "zoom ceiling". 🤔
MrBirdman Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 45 minutes ago, El Presidente said: KPI's if the role permits it. In the case raised Friday, it is a more a matter of how important is "being physically seen" when it come to promotions. Hence the term "zoom ceiling". 🤔 That probably depends on the person. If you’re a prickly curmudgeon, the less face time the better! But if you’re a nice, personable individual then there seems little doubt that in-person contact will foster a stronger relationship.
Popular Post LordAnubis Posted June 12, 2023 Popular Post Posted June 12, 2023 I would hazard a guess that ceo is 50+ and reads the paper on weekends? This is a crock. Promotions should be given to the person most capable. If the employee is remotely doing all their work diligently then why do you need to see him in the office? CEO should be praising the remote employee for not wasting office space, office power, water etc not costing insurance on their trip into work etc etc etc. I used to work for a large software company where we actually tracked “computer focus”. It backfired massively as it was proven workers working in the office had less computer focus than workers at home. Workers in the open plan offices gossiped, went out for coffee, and lunch etc etc. I had no one in my team in my office and no one in the same location in the entire small team (We were spread between Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane, Johannesburg, KL, Jakarta). When I went into the office all I did was talk about other products that have nothing to do with my work and my focus for those days was in the 60%s compared to 85%s at home. All of our work got done just fine 100% remotely and in fact got done better and quicker and cheaper for the clients as we weren’t wasting time global travelling (and charging them for it). obviously remote working only works for some occupations. But my point is if the person is working from home and doing their job then by overlooking them cos you don’t see them you are quite exactly applying the give promotions to the boys who go to the pub with you after work mentality. 4 2
Bri Fi Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 8 hours ago, MrBirdman said: This depends on the person, the job, a lot of factors. The only reason law firms are bringing people back three or four days a week is to ensure younger associates get mentored properly, because senior associates/partners generally bill far more hours working remotely. I’m one of the people very resistant to full time 100% in person work (although I don’t like 100% remote either). What “opponents” fail to realize is that it’s not the office we’re looking to avoid - it’s the commute. I commute to Philly four days a week right now, roughly an hour each way assuming typical traffic. I would look for another career before going to five times a week (four is bad enough). Aside from the stress my commute creates, it’s an enormous waste of time. Even if I spend the entire difference doing things for myself like exercising or sleep, that’s still making me more productive for my on hours. And in practice most white collar workers put a portion of the time savings to work. Also, most people outside cities have little recourse to public transit. Fewer car commute days = less pollution, less wear and tear on the roads, and fewer early deaths from road rage. There are certainly costs to 100% remote work in many areas/positions. But if you can’t get all your group meetings and interpersonal collaboration done during 3 in-person days a week, you’re the one using employee time inefficiently. I work four 10 hour shifts. It takes me 1.5 hours to get to work and 2.5 hours to get home from work everyday. I feel your pain but these are the sacrifices you make to support your family. As someone who needs to work in the office I wish more people would telecommute so I didn’t have to sit in traffic so long. I can say that most issues with personnel in regards to entitlement are the newer generations that expect things handed to them instead of earned. Expecting promotions when you’re not willing to go into work when others are is just a small example of entitlement.
Perla Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 CEO‘s who started the career in the 90-s are very hard to convince that remote working is a productive way to work. i love my Homeoffice very much and I don’t take it for granted. A lot of improvements I had done in the past for company had been done in The Homeoffice, because I didn’t had the distraction from my colleagues. I am not so interested in gossip I must confess. driving into the office takes me 1,5 hours both way. The is for me waste of lifetime, wasting fuel and nerves. Usually my boss & I made appointment to talk things through plus a fix jour fix in the week. This is the informative side of business. There is not really a reason for me or my taste to promote someone who is working remotely. The other side must be able to see the performance of all employees and consider it. That’s what makes a good leader. Some are better working from the office, other remotely and other when they mix it. just my 2C
MrBirdman Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Bri Fi said: I work four 10 hour shifts. It takes me 1.5 hours to get to work and 2.5 hours to get home from work everyday. I feel your pain but these are the sacrifices you make to support your family. As someone who needs to work in the office I wish more people would telecommute so I didn’t have to sit in traffic so long. I can say that most issues with personnel in regards to entitlement are the newer generations that expect things handed to them instead of earned. Expecting promotions when you’re not willing to go into work when others are is just a small example of entitlement. Look, if you have to do it you have to do it. I get that. To me, spending all that time in the car is wasting my time and the employer’s. It’s making me less productive when I do it 5 days a week. If hybrid work is a win-win for both sides, why not do it? 1
Popular Post Hammer Smokin' Posted June 12, 2023 Popular Post Posted June 12, 2023 we have strict enforcement and monitoring of KPI's. right now the WFH are approx 40% more productive than the WFO. But that is expected. Humans work longer hours, and more comfortably, at home. The office has always been an energy drain. But KPI's don't evaluate learning by osmosis. That is much tougher to quantify. 6
BrightonCorgi Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 Not every company has an office for employees to report into. My company is remote work focused. It's true that those who are in physical proximity or are seen in person by exec staff have higher likelihood of getting a promotion.
LordAnubis Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 10 hours ago, Bri Fi said: I work four 10 hour shifts. It takes me 1.5 hours to get to work and 2.5 hours to get home from work everyday. I feel your pain but these are the sacrifices you make to support your family. As someone who needs to work in the office I wish more people would telecommute so I didn’t have to sit in traffic so long. I can say that most issues with personnel in regards to entitlement are the newer generations that expect things handed to them instead of earned. Expecting promotions when you’re not willing to go into work when others are is just a small example of entitlement. There are jobs that need to be in person but very few. What you say about being lazy to drive to work I would say about the office laggards not learning and using technologies and manipulating your work strategy into a more efficient way. I think the current generation are changing the world to an easier and more efficient proces. Just because you struggle and put up with a commute doesn’t mean you should, or should it mean it’s right. Multiple sides to the coin. My current job we don’t have enough desks. So we have to hot swap desks and I am only rostered on to a desk twice a week. I go into the office and plug my laptop into the monitor etc and it doesn’t work. When I don’t have the ultra wide screen monitor working I am near on useless in my work. So I do sweet F all and bank my salary and laugh my way home at the end of the day. At home in my office the monitor Works every single time. 8 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said: we have strict enforcement and monitoring of KPI's. right now the WFH are approx 40% more productive than the WFO. But that is expected. Humans work longer hours, and more comfortably, at home. The office has always been an energy drain. But KPI's don't evaluate learning by osmosis. That is much tougher to quantify. This is cool. Can I ask what the metric is? Is it knocking a quantity of a task? We measured focus which basically tracked if you were typing or clicking on active work tasks. Essentially if you are jaut staring at a a screen you weren’t considered to be working (not always the case but did work in this specific environment) and if you were hovering your mouse around while talking to the guy next to you it would detect it in your non directional mouse movement. It was pretty cool and showed that those working at home were about 75-85% focussed through 8 hours of work (they found that wfh people tended to split their days and do 2 sprints of 4 hours with a 2h break in between as an example) where as office workers had 55-66% focus and were only there for the office hours. Was pretty cool stuff once you got over the micromanaging and fornsure privacy invasion 😂 1
MickVanWinkle Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 I believe there are many factors that play into this, making it difficult to generalize even within a specific field. However, I personally have modified my behavior to mitigate the potential loss in my remote position. I utilize the saved commute/coffee/gossip time, investing a portion into professional development or pet projects. I try to create a personal vibe where appropriate to humanize myself with the people I interact with (Hawaiian shirt fridays - thanks, Lumbergh) to maintain engagement with colleagues and stakeholders…. etc etc The movers and shakers I see in my industry aren’t reliant on the state of the office, but on the state of themselves. 1
Bagman Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 15 hours ago, Bri Fi said: . I’m not even sure how you can evaluate employee performance if you don’t observe them work. Sorry you work with people that only work that way. Do you have some boss walking behind the endless rows of cubicles with a whip making sure everyone is staring at their screen? The majority (not all) of us at home work hard without being watched and our work is easily measured. Besides, I'm sure my company monitors my work via video capture. And I'm okay with that. These days I put in more time, time that I used to commute. 4 hour commute and constant supervision. Who wouldn't want that! I'm sure, despite my increased output, that I will advance much more slowly up the chain. Again, I'm okay with that. The majority of the people I know that go in are the people who go in for the social contact. The very same people that would waste my time with their long stories about their weekend. Haven't missed that at all Probaly speaks to Hammer Smokin' point about people at home being 40% more productive. 3
Hammer Smokin' Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 2 hours ago, LordAnubis said: This is cool. Can I ask what the metric is? Is it knocking a quantity of a task? We measured focus which basically tracked if you were typing or clicking on active work tasks. Essentially if you are jaut staring at a a screen you weren’t considered to be working (not always the case but did work in this specific environment) and if you were hovering your mouse around while talking to the guy next to you it would detect it in your non directional mouse movement. It was pretty cool and showed that those working at home were about 75-85% focussed through 8 hours of work (they found that wfh people tended to split their days and do 2 sprints of 4 hours with a 2h break in between as an example) where as office workers had 55-66% focus and were only there for the office hours. Was pretty cool stuff once you got over the micromanaging and fornsure privacy invasion 😂 i'm in commercial insurance. the kpi's refer to sales related tasks mainly. how much premium does a team member write, what is their renewal retention (and rate increases), stuff like that. we also track meetings with brokers and clients, but generally their main kpi's will show how well they are doing at their secondary tasks.
MickVanWinkle Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 I’d also be concerned for any company’s long-term health that limits its leadership pool. If the zoom-ceiling is set too low (Sr. individual contributor? middle management?) how much talent are you inherently weeding out? 1
Puros Y Vino Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Monterey said: The majority of the people I know that go in are the people who go in for the social contact. The very same people that would waste my time with their long stories about their weekend. Haven't missed that at all Probaly speaks to Hammer Smokin' point about people at home being 40% more productive. Bingo. Prior to the Pandemic, our team was 3-4 days WFH per week. Our roles are Business Continuity and Emergency Mgmt. If anything, our boss encourages us to be able to work from anywhere, anytime when duty calls. Even when I went into the office, I always had to take my laptop with me back and forth in case I had to tend to after hours incidents. Going to office was a 1 or 2 day per week exercise at most. And that was primarily for our weekly team meetings. Ever since initial lockdown, we haven't had to return for much of anything. We dont need to print anything, we find Teams meetings far more efficient. People can raise their virtual hands, type in the chat box. No more loudmouths talking the majority of the time or late comers sauntering in because they were "so busy" and had to just stop for that coffee before plopping their ass down 5 minutes late. Commute expenses gone/reduced. Making my own <$1 Nespresso at home. Not buying lunch. Not getting caught in Subway delays. Not freezing or sweating my ass off depending on the season. Every place and job is different of course. Our team isnt' very social to begin with. We NEVER go for coffee or lunch together. But we work great together, lots of mutual respect, cover each other off and allocate work loads equally. We also tend to put in more time because it feels right to do so, having been saved the hours of commute time. I start at 7AM and depending on the workload or Incidents, I can be done by 4PM or carry on past 6PM if there are some "fires" to put out. The work/life balance allows flexibility both ways. As to the main question, showing bias to someone who is in the office physically can backfire and potentially hurt the organizations' bottom line. The handfuls of times I've gone into the office, I've seen the same crew that have to show their face to the boss to show that they're busy but their output doesn't seem to jive with that notion. The workplace is changing for the better IMO. Some jobs can never truly be 100% remote but trying to force those that can be into the "traditional" in-person mode gets in the way of the actual work. Update your KPI's and CSF's (Critical Success Factors) to reflect the changes and the workplace will be more efficient and equitable.
porkchop Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 When it comes to promotions, being a high performer may hurt because the company has to find someone to replace that production. A standout employee with an independent streak does better jumping amongst competitors. Particularly in sales.
Silverstix Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 Time to go to work, boys and girls. I'm promoting the person who works in the office 10 times out of 10.
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