Stumbling at the final hurdle

[El Presidente]

 

You go to so much effort....only to stumble at the final hurdle. 

 

[HarveyBoulevard]

I don't see it.  Those look fine to me.  They are even Totalmenta a mano...

[MedV3]

Hmmm should it be a MAR box code ?  

[Chibearsv]

2022 RR Robusto?  No bueno 😁

[Monterey]

1 hour ago, MedV3 said:

Hmmm should it be a MAR box code ?  

Close.  GES.

[ATGroom]

I've seen a number of these high end fakes of different premium models (Cohiba Siglo VI, Talisman, Novedosos, Esplendidos, Reserva etc).

They seem to use genuine boxes, flyers, and bands, either stolen from Cuba or perfect Chinese copies. The serial numbers check out on the HSA website. There are a few imperfections in things like the bands being too low or not placed in a straight line, or the wrappers being a bit miss-matched. Almost anyone would dismiss them as "slightly rough but genuine."

The one thing they all have in common is very thick, rough wood used for the protective cedar sheet on top. It is unlike anything I've ever seen on a genuine box in texture. It warps with humidity and splits very easily. Definitely not the same source as genuine, and I suspect it is a totally different wood. Very strange that they can get everything else right, presumably with a lot of help from people on the island, but can't source these.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, ATGroom said:

very thick, rough wood used for the protective cedar sheet on top. It is unlike anything I've ever seen on a genuine box in texture

Yes, this seems to be common on these higher end fakes. That cedar sheet seems to be a stumbling point. Thicker than it should be and has that streaky-looking grain to it. 

It also seems to be missing the second GR leaflet.

I will give them credit on the code font--it's pretty good. They just used the wrong code.

[Fuzz]

23 hours ago, ATGroom said:

I've seen a number of these high end fakes of different premium models (Cohiba Siglo VI, Talisman, Novedosos, Esplendidos, Reserva etc).

They seem to use genuine boxes, flyers, and bands, either stolen from Cuba or perfect Chinese copies. The serial numbers check out on the HSA website. There are a few imperfections in things like the bands being too low or not placed in a straight line, or the wrappers being a bit miss-matched. Almost anyone would dismiss them as "slightly rough but genuine."

The one thing they all have in common is very thick, rough wood used for the protective cedar sheet on top. It is unlike anything I've ever seen on a genuine box in texture. It warps with humidity and splits very easily. Definitely not the same source as genuine, and I suspect it is a totally different wood. Very strange that they can get everything else right, presumably with a lot of help from people on the island, but can't source these.

Thanks, Alex! I'll get my people working on it!!

[avaldes]

Yeah I don’t think UAO is a ‘22 code.

[Lamboinee]

Enlighten a relative noob....

When I look at those pictures, what should I see to indicate a fraud? Is there anything in addition to the thick cedar topper?

Appreciate the lesson. 

 

[ATGroom]

3 hours ago, Lamboinee said:

When I look at those pictures, what should I see to indicate a fraud? Is there anything in addition to the thick cedar topper?

These were a one time special release. They were produced in a few batches from late 2018 until mid-2019. So the UAO MAY 22 code is wrong.

Given how seriously Cuba takes the concept of a limited edition, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they ran off another batch in '22, although by that time the code for El Laguito had changed from UAO to MAR, so a UAO MAY 22 would still be incorrect.

[Monterey]

1 hour ago, ATGroom said:

These were a one time special release. They were produced in a few batches from late 2018 until mid-2019. So the UAO MAY 22 code is wrong.

Given how seriously Cuba takes the concept of a limited edition, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they ran off another batch in '22, although by that time the code for El Laguito had changed from UAO to MAR, so a UAO MAY 22 would still be incorrect.

In March/2022 MAR became GES.  So it would have to be GES MAY 22

[Chas.Alpha]

4 hours ago, Lamboinee said:

Enlighten a relative noob....

When I look at those pictures, what should I see to indicate a fraud? Is there anything in addition to the thick cedar topper?

Appreciate the lesson. 

 

Please see above... It's the little things. @ATGroom I'm going to take a stab and say that it's Philippine mahogany. The grain is somewhat different than South American. 

[NSXCIGAR]

8 hours ago, Lamboinee said:

Enlighten a relative noob....

When I look at those pictures, what should I see to indicate a fraud? Is there anything in addition to the thick cedar topper?

Appreciate the lesson. 

To be fair this is a pretty good fake. I would give it a 7/10. The code itself is wrong but only someone up to date on codes would know that. The font is almost always off but in this case the code font looks good enough which is saying a lot. 

And of course the cedar sheet has that rough, grainy look which would not be a red flag to anyone but those who are very knowledgeable about fakes. If it wasn't something I'd seen multiple times on fakes I might discount it as Cuba being Cuba. 

The biggest problem with this box is the missing Gran Reserva leaflet. That would probably turn off most buyers with even average knowledge. But if it was there I think this box could fool someone with even an above average level of knowledge.

If they had gotten the code right and with the leaflet I would say this would be a box only a true expert would balk at or a 9/10 fake assuming all the small items like the bands checked out up close. 

[ATGroom]

27 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The biggest problem with this box is the missing Gran Reserva leaflet. That would probably turn off most buyers with even average knowledge. But if it was there I think this box could fool someone with even an above average level of knowledge.

The reserva leaflet is sitting next to the box. You can see the corner of it on the left side edge of photos 4, 5 and 6.

If you look up the original listing on the Spanish Collector website you will see that Rob actually left out a couple of photos which are the real giveaway with this one : it comes with the seals not applied to the box. The corner of the DOP seal is visible sitting on the reserva leaflet on the edge of photo 6.

[Fugu]

The question here actually is as to “how” fake it is. The cigars look very well made.

[NSXCIGAR]

On 9/3/2022 at 5:46 PM, ATGroom said:

it comes with the seals not applied to the box.

Ah, the old loose seals trick. Should have known. What is it that they are constantly keeping these seals separate? It seems to be almost expected on higher end fakes. So strange. 

 

On 9/3/2022 at 7:01 PM, Fugu said:

The question here actually is as to “how” fake it is. The cigars look very well made.

I've seen even mediocre fakes look fantastic. A box of Cohiba Genios in Tijuana a few years ago comes to mind. Looked great, felt great. No way I could tell. The box was not quite as good as the OP box here. I knew the guy selling them so he gave me one. Obviously it tasted like crap and at about the half inch mark the cigar became soft and mushy. I mean this thing just disintegrated under my fingers. Incredible as it started out feeling perfectly filled. 

I don't know what they're doing to these cigars but it's like the equivalent of used car dealers putting sawdust in the engine. 

In fact here's the band for that cigar:

[Fugu]

Was more meaning to allude to where this might be originating from. Cuba, China, Central Amerika?! What I find noteworthy here is that the font of the stamp is spot on. The stamp usually is a dead giveaway. This here not - looks like someone used an original one and just messed with the correct code. Well, not that the stamp couldn’t be copied, but this is a first for me.

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Was more meaning to allude to where this might be originating from. Cuba, China, Central Amerika?! 

For what it's worth, this box was being sold out of Spain.  More likely Central America/Cuba than China. 

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

Was more meaning to allude to where this might be originating from. Cuba, China, Central Amerika?! What I find noteworthy here is that the font of the stamp is spot on. The stamp usually is a dead giveaway. This here not - looks like someone used an original one and just messed with the correct code. Well, not that the stamp couldn’t be copied, but this is a first for me.

I agree, the code font being correct was very surprising. That's why I gave this box a 7/10. Imagine if the code was correct and the seals were on as Alex says they aren't. The only indication would be the rough cedar sheet. How many would recognize that as a red flag? I also would like to see the seal and microprinting as well as that would certainly be something far more people would know to look for. 

I agree with Rob--I've seen pretty close to this level of fake from Mexico and Central America/Caribbean. When China starts putting some effort into fakes it's going to get scary.

[Edicion]

It's becoming more and more evident that KYC (know your company) or seller is critical, and provenance/history/source when considering high end CC products.

It would have fooled many experienced cigar fans, and probably a few shop owners who don't exclusively deal with CC or have the experience to understand all the fine details as explained above.

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Edicion said:

It's becoming more and more evident that KYC (know your company) or seller is critical, and provenance/history/source when considering high end CC products.

It would have fooled many experienced cigar fans, and probably a few shop owners who don't exclusively deal with CC or have the experience to understand all the fine details as explained above.

Yep, trusted vendors only from here on out. Especially with Cohiba and Trinidad. Way too much money to be made on even basic boxes like Siglo VI with only the code and microprinting to deal with which can easily be duplicated in China. Don't even need to vary them. Just repeat the code. How many people are going to buy multiple boxes? Same code can go to every buyer and no one's the wiser. 

In fact I would say Trinidad is much more ripe for fakes at this point with its basic band.

I would guess that in a year or two China will be producing fakes indistinguishable from genuine product. 

[winelover]

Do we even know it is fake when Cuban QC is not first rate and errors can occur with packaging and labelling?

[El Presidente]

42 minutes ago, winelover said:

Do we even know it is fake when Cuban QC is not first rate and errors can occur with packaging and labelling?

...Yes we do 

[Fugu]

3 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Yep, trusted vendors only from here on out. Especially with Cohiba and Trinidad. Way too much money to be made on even basic boxes like Siglo VI

So, you are saying I have to eventually smoke my Cohiba GR?!! 😁🙄😎