What Is Medio Tiempo Tobacco?

[Puros Y Vino]

17 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I'm wondering if there's any record of an NC producer using MT before BHK started using it in 2010. I doubt it given NC's propensity for "borrowing" trends from CCs.

Partagas Black Label.  I bought some Bravos in 2009. Could even predate that.

"Partagas Black Label employs Cuban-seed Medio Tempo wrappers which are darker, heavier and richer than other wrappers because they are harvested only after they have been allowed to age longer than other wrapper leaves."

[Carrie Nation]

Two brief mentions from 2005. 

 

Here Fuente talks about using them: https://www.cigaraficionado.com/article/an-interview-with-carlos-fuente-jr-6190

 

And here it's mentioned from Benji Menendez...a guy who got a machine gun pointed in his face by Cuban militia when Castro nationalized his family's H. Upmann factory: 

 

https://www.cigaraficionado.com/article/part-two-las-vegas-big-smoke-saturday-seminars-2139

 

[Cigar Surgeon]

43 minutes ago, Carrie Nation said:

And here it's mentioned from Benji Menendez...a guy who got a machine gun pointed in his face by Cuban militia when Castro nationalized his family's H. Upmann factory: 

 

https://www.cigaraficionado.com/article/part-two-las-vegas-big-smoke-saturday-seminars-2139

 

So Benji made the Daniel Núñez Selección Especial for the Big Smoke in 2005. 

Quote

The wrapper was a Cuban seed grown in the San Augustín Valley of Honduras, the binder is a Connecticut medio tiempo, and the fillers consist of tobacco from the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua. The Nicaraguan filler is especially interesting in that is comes from a volcanic island in the center of Lake Nicaragua called Ometepe.

 

[Bill Hayes]

Just a question, did the Behike range use a blend of medio tiempo and ligero as filler? Was it aged considerably before rolling? I really liked the flavour profile, even though I only ever tried a couple. My thinking would be that they would age well again and be great with 5 years down if you could wait that long. Great thread and very informative. Cheers.

[Anjelo]

Anecdotal story - the first Cuban cigars I had were in Playa Del Carmen back in 2013 that I picked up from the LCDH. I was there for a wedding, and the couple are good friends, so I bought the “best” (expensive) cigars they had to share with the groom. Behike 54s. We smoked them down to the nails, like we were Cheech and Chong . That night is permanently imprinted with that sweet aroma in my mind - best cigar I’ve had.

I still kick myself because I remember the Lcdh attendant telling me about the Ramon Allones, and showing me the Edmundo Dantes- but I’ll I knew back then was “Cohiba” - I regret some things, but not that Behike.

[oneizzzz]

Is a medio tiempo leaf generally long enough to run the length of, say, a Behike 56? Or do rollers need to arrange them end to end?

[Cigar Surgeon]

8 hours ago, oneizzzz said:

Is a medio tiempo leaf generally long enough to run the length of, say, a Behike 56? Or do rollers need to arrange them end to end?

The medio tiempo I've seen is very, very small. I wouldn't expect it in most cases it could be used for a wrapper unless the cigar was short and thin. 

[bmac]

Great marketing-perhaps.Also highlights the fact that NC’s are on fire and selling very well around the world.

[gustavehenne]

I read a few articles that suggested the Cohiba Lanceros were blended with Medio Tiempo. Does this still happen or did anyone notice a discernible taste of blend post 09/10 when Linea Behike was commercialised, and they removed it from the 'standard' Cohibas? 

[oneizzzz]

4 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

The medio tiempo I've seen is very, very small. I wouldn't expect it in most cases it could be used for a wrapper unless the cigar was short and thin. 

I didn't think it was ever used for a wrapper, but I don't know.  I assume it's rolled in the middle as ligero is?  

I brought it up because if a single leaf of medio tiempo couldn't run the length of a Behike, wouldn't that interfere with the construction/long filler aspect?

[ATGroom]

8 hours ago, oneizzzz said:

I didn't think it was ever used for a wrapper, but I don't know.  I assume it's rolled in the middle as ligero is?  

I brought it up because if a single leaf of medio tiempo couldn't run the length of a Behike, wouldn't that interfere with the construction/long filler aspect?

Yes, it's small, but it's not that small. It is bunched in with the other leaves, so it should run most or all of the length depending on how the roller constructs the bunch.

 

8 hours ago, stevenhaugen said:

I read a few articles that suggested the Cohiba Lanceros were blended with Medio Tiempo. Does this still happen or did anyone notice a discernible taste of blend post 09/10 when Linea Behike was commercialised, and they removed it from the 'standard' Cohibas? 

38 ring gauge cigars don't even have ligero, and Cohiba Lanceros was never a full blend, so I don't think that it is accurate that they ever contained Medio Tiempo.

[Tstew75]

Just now, ATGroom said:

38 ring gauge cigars don't even have ligero, and Cohiba Lanceros was never a full blend, so I don't think that it is accurate that they ever contained Medio Tiempo.

So a 38rg Lancero wouldn't have Ligero just simply based on much less filler being used for the vitola?

Also, what is it about the blend used for the Cohiba Classic Range that gives em that extra boost? Based on price, I always daydream about them using the absolute best tobacco & tossing in a tiny bit of Ligero/Medio Tiempo to give them some 'shine' (the Espy & CPE in particular).

[ATGroom]

34 minutes ago, Tstew75 said:

So a 38rg Lancero wouldn't have Ligero just simply based on much less filler being used for the vitola?

I'm basing it on an interview with 'Cueto' (master torcedor) where he says that in Cuba they never use ligero in 38 or lower. Practically I guess it's just that the thin cigar with less filler means ligero would be too overpowering and the cigar wouldn't burn right.

In theory Cohiba is more expensive due to the highest quality of tobacco being used, particularly the top grade wrappers which are the most expensive leaf. Plus I guess the fillers get the third fermentation which has a cost associated with it. Never heard any HSA person say that medio tiempo is used in any cigar outside of the BHK range, and I feel like they would if they were doing it purely as there seems to be an association with "MT = good" in the mind of consumers.

That said, in reality I don't think the cost of Cohiba is strictly proportional to manufacturing cost.😜

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, ATGroom said:

I'm basing it on an interview with 'Cueto' (master torcedor) where he says that in Cuba they never use ligero in 38 or lower. Practically I guess it's just that the thin cigar with less filler means ligero would be too overpowering and the cigar wouldn't burn right.

I think habanos says it too somewhere on their website. On the other hand I think there is a feeling that the recently discontinued bolivar Tubos no. 3 at 33 or 34 RG contained Ligero based on its strength.

[Corylax18]

I've seen countless people talking to Rollers and Blenders in Cuba asking "MORE LIGERO" they just laugh and shake their heads. Cuban Cigars can be so special because the Seco they have can still be very flavorful. I think there is far, far less ligero used in RP than most regular cigar smokers realize.

I've also heard countless rollers and even some employees at EL tell me that 1 full leaf of good Ligero = 1 half leaf of MT. And that 90% of cigar smokers wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the final blend. Mas Fuerte doesnt directly translate into Mas Better. 

I was sitting with a roller on a farm a few years ago while he was rolling me a couple bundles of coronas. He didnt even have any ligero with him when we started. He rolled up 3 different blends (none with Ligero) and asked which I preferred. I was able to decipher which had more/less Volado and Seco and ended up greatly preferring the blend that was roughly 50/50 volado and seco. This blend allowed all the different flavors to poke through (brown sugar, butter, earth, slight leather) but didn't allow any one flavor to dominate. The 2/3rd's Seco and 1/3rd Volado blend lost some of the sweetness and became dominated by the earth and leather aspects. The blend that was heavier on the Volado was just too light and airy, again the flavors became more difficult to pick out. 

Just for fun, I asked him to grab some Ligero and replace half a leaf of the Seco with half a leaf of it. The blend was completely ruined (to my palette), the cigar became too strong and the distinct flavors completely disappeared. The leather was still there a bit, but the cigar became bitter and a bit harsh. I learned that day that stronger isn't necessarily better. 

 

[Tstew75]

6 hours ago, ATGroom said:

I'm basing it on an interview with 'Cueto' (master torcedor) where he says that in Cuba they never use ligero in 38 or lower. Practically I guess it's just that the thin cigar with less filler means ligero would be too overpowering and the cigar wouldn't burn right.

In theory Cohiba is more expensive due to the highest quality of tobacco being used, particularly the top grade wrappers which are the most expensive leaf. Plus I guess the fillers get the third fermentation which has a cost associated with it. Never heard any HSA person say that medio tiempo is used in any cigar outside of the BHK range, and I feel like they would if they were doing it purely as there seems to be an association with "MT = good" in the mind of consumers.

That said, in reality I don't think the cost of Cohiba is strictly proportional to manufacturing cost.😜

This all makes complete sense.

RE: the 3rd fermentation for the Classic Range, I have heard several times that only applies to El Laguito. Can you confirm or deny that?

[ATGroom]

11 hours ago, Tstew75 said:

RE: the 3rd fermentation for the Classic Range, I have heard several times that only applies to El Laguito. Can you confirm or deny that?

Tobacco is all issued by the mother factory of the marca, ie, if La Corona is going to roll a batch of Siglo II, then the Master Blender at El Laguito will choose the tobacco for them and send it over. So Cohiba should have the triple ferment regardless of where it is rolled.

[Tstew75]

7 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

Tobacco is all issued by the mother factory of the marca, ie, if La Corona is going to roll a batch of Siglo II, then the Master Blender at El Laguito will choose the tobacco for them and send it over. So Cohiba should have the triple ferment regardless of where it is rolled.

1st time ever hearing that LG handles all Cohiba blending leaf. Thank you.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, ATGroom said:

Tobacco is all issued by the mother factory of the marca

Is this the case just for Cohiba/El Laguito or all marcas? Obviously some marcas are homeless, so to speak.

I was aware that all the extra fermentations of Cohiba occur at EL and that all Cohiba leaf is additionally fermented. 

[ATGroom]

14 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Is this the case just for Cohiba/El Laguito or all marcas? Obviously some marcas are homeless, so to speak.

It is the case for all marcas. The master blenders from the mother factory choose all the tobacco for the brand no matter where it is rolled.

A couple of years ago I tried to put together a definitive list of brands and their mother factories - it proved to be easier said than done. Sources give different factories for different brands, and there are some minor brands that I couldn't find any info on.

I'm not sure if these brands are actually "homeless" or if they are not a big enough deal that it has ever made it to print. But, as I understand the system, there would be a master blender somewhere who has responsibility for each brand and choosing its tobacco. That blender would be an employee of a factory. So I guess that factory could be considered the mother factory of the marca, even if they never really roll any of it.

[NSXCIGAR]

25 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

So I guess that factory could be considered the mother factory of the marca, even if they never really roll any of it.

So a "mother factory" may not be the factory that rolls the most of a particular marca, so for example therefore La Corona may not be the mother factory of PL, SC or Cuaba...so really it's not really what I would consider a "mother factory" but an assigned repository to receive, blend and distribute leaf for a marca. 

[ATGroom]

41 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

So a "mother factory" may not be the factory that rolls the most of a particular marca, so for example therefore La Corona may not be the mother factory of PL, SC or Cuaba...so really it's not really what I would consider a "mother factory" but an assigned repository to receive, blend and distribute leaf for a marca. 

I think this fits more or less with what the Cubans would consider the "mother factory."

The blenders from the mother factory choose the tobacco.

Production can be done in house, or the mother factory can outsource it depending on their capacity.

The QC people at the mother factory have some level of responsibility over making sure the stuff that comes back from outsource is up to snuff.

If prototypes needed to be produced for a new cigar or something like that then it would all be done at the mother factory. And their staff probably have some input into product development as well.

I would say there is probably a level of pride, so that if there is a special production that needs to be done then the mother factory would be less likely to outsouce.

For a factory like La Corona, that has big brands like Hoyo and Punch, and then a bunch of smaller brands like Cuaba, SC, PL etc, they probably have more focus on their big brands than their little ones. It doesn't take many batches of Cuaba to be outsourced before more or less the whole production is being done away from the mother. But it is still the mother factory.

[NSXCIGAR]

15 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

It doesn't take many batches of Cuaba to be outsourced before more or less the whole production is being done away from the mother. But it is still the mother factory.

Which makes it darn near impossible to figure out what any marca's mother factory is--certainly by deduction (Cohiba excepted) You'd have to have independent credible confirmation 

Is HU factory HU's mother factory? One would think so. But most HU models aren't rolled in HU. Most Connie 1, Connie A, about half of Mag 46 and that's about it. Conversely, all Cuaba is rolled at La Corona, but is La Corona handling a brand that small? 

What is interesting is that whatever system they've chosen to implement appears to be working quite well. As we know quality across all factories has been quite uniform for at least a decade. 

[ATGroom]

Just anecdotally, Cuaba might be an exception, in that while it is a small brand, it also is a difficult brand to roll because they're all double figurado. So maybe La Corona is loath to outsource much of that production, or it might be difficult to find enough level 9 rollers in the smaller factories.

Upmann, it kind of makes sense that they would keep the Connie to themselves as that is the line they have been trying to develop in recent years. And the factory also handles Monte, so Upmann is probably considered the 2nd tier brand for them.

Agree, probably only really credible source would be a factory manager or someone at Tabacuba.

[NSXCIGAR]

31 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

So maybe La Corona is loath to outsource much of that production, or it might be difficult to find enough level 9 rollers in the smaller factories.

Upmann, it kind of makes sense that they would keep the Connie to themselves as that is the line they have been trying to develop in recent years. And the factory also handles Monte, so Upmann is probably considered the 2nd tier brand for them.

You're right about Cuaba--a better example would be PL. SC is a little bigger. We know Cuaba was Briones Montoto originally but PL has been La Corona for decades as far as I know. SC, I can't recall what it was in 99. 

As far as the Connies, most Connie B is not rolled at HU, although Connie 2 may be but I'm not sure. And I forgot almost all Noellas are rolled at HU. 

Monte, I'm not sure about, but again, HU certainly could be the mother factory, although HU doesn't handle much Monte at all except the 1935s. I've always paid attention to that since of course HU was Monte's mother factory (and sister brand) from 1935 through at least 2000.