Ramon Allones Phoenicio 40th Anniversary

[cigarsdelcuba]

See below link on the this one time regional release from Phoenicia Trading including a limited set of humidors across 4 lines from Elie Bleu:

 

https://www.cigarjournal.com/phoencia-trading-selects-blend-for-40th-anniversary-ramon-allones-phoenicio/

 

 

[Hookmaker]

This sport is ruining me??

[Stump89]

Another giant Ramon Allones RE... yawn.

[Derboesekoenig]

Yup another overpriced RA ER. No thanks

[CaptainQuintero]

  If it's anything like the original Phoenicio then they will be outstanding, it's seems to be a hard task for Cuba to copy famous blends though. The Monte Sublime was one that has been given endless copies like the Grand Edmundo, 520 etc but never matched the original. Cohiba 1966 has been given the same treatment too.

  It looks like the distributor are giving it a fair whack though so good on them if they manage it

[TheMonk]

2 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  If it's anything like the original Phoenicio then they will be outstanding, it's seems to be a hard task for Cuba to copy famous blends though. The Monte Sublime was one that has been given endless copies like the Grand Edmundo, 520 etc but never matched the original. Cohiba 1966 has been given the same treatment too.

  It looks like the distributor are giving it a fair whack though so good on them if they manage it

Absolutely, definitely hope so... although I seriously doubt it.

[Corylax18]

This quote almost made me spit my coffee on my computer. The outright lie about the 30th's all being rolled at EL wasn't enough I guess. They decided to step it up to a whole nother level and pinpoint the farm and certain rollers within a factory for this batch of almost a HALF MILLION cigars. What a JOKE!! 

"The leaves will come for the Hector Luis farm and the cigars will be rolled by the best cigar rollers at the Partagás Factory under the supervision of José Castelar, a.k.a Cueto. The world premiere of this release is going to be held in Beirut on November 8, 2019."

[NSXCIGAR]

Hmm...this is quite a statement: 

Phonecia Trading A.A., the biggest distributor of Cuban cigars in the world.

I'd like to see the numbers on that. Yes, UAE and Lebanon are in the top 8 markets but I find it hard to believe PCC doesn't have it with China, HK, OZ and Japan. 

As @Corylax18 points out, it wouldn't be the first time Phoenicia fudged the facts.

[NSXCIGAR]

11 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

If it's anything like the original Phoenicio then they will be outstanding

With 500k sticks that's unlikely to happen. More than double the number of P 30s. 

Although if they do pull it off...

I will say choosing the Partagas factory over EL is a wiser choice if the actually want to keep their word. And they probably learned their lesson last time. HSA can ask but Cubatabaco does what it wants.

As far as all the tobacco coming from Hector, well, who knows. It may be the case since the tobacco for that blend may in fact be from Hector's finca, so that may in fact be true. 

[Derboesekoenig]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

With 500k sticks that's unlikely to happen. More than double the number of P 30s. 

Although if they do pull it off...

I will say choosing the Partagas factory over EL is a wiser choice if the actually want to keep their word. And they probably learned their lesson last time. HSA can ask but Cubatabaco does what it wants.

As far as all the tobacco coming from Hector, well, who knows. It may be the case since the tobacco for that blend may in fact be from Hector's finca, so that may in fact be true. 

From what came out of Partagas in '18, I say it'd be a home run. They look to be either very close or on par with El Laguito in producing some amazing cigars.

[mt1]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Hmm...this is quite a statement: 

Phonecia Trading A.A., the biggest distributor of Cuban cigars in the world.

I'd like to see the numbers on that. Yes, UAE and Lebanon are in the top 8 markets but I find it hard to believe PCC doesn't have it with China, HK, OZ and Japan. 

As @Corylax18 points out, it wouldn't be the first time Phoenicia fudged the facts.

Well you know, obesity rates are quite high in the Middle East so they very well might be the biggest distributor.

[Corylax18]

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 1:57 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

Hmm...this is quite a statement: 

Phonecia Trading A.A., the biggest distributor of Cuban cigars in the world.

I'd like to see the numbers on that. Yes, UAE and Lebanon are in the top 8 markets but I find it hard to believe PCC doesn't have it with China, HK, OZ and Japan. 

As @Corylax18 points out, it wouldn't be the first time Phoenicia fudged the facts.

They may be the largest, on the books. I'm not an expert on the exact numbers, Rob is certainly a better resource there. However, the number of cigars that enter China and the number of cigars that LEGALLY enter China are VASTLY different. I can't find the exact post now, but Rob has mentioned multiple, full 40' shipping containers crossing the border illegally. I agree 100% that China is the largest CC market on the planet, but PCC competes with multiple other supply streams. 

22 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

As far as all the tobacco coming from Hector, well, who knows. It may be the case since the tobacco for that blend may in fact be from Hector's finca, so that may in fact be true. 

NOPE. ZERO Chance. I cant be anymore clear about that. Lets look at some quick and dirty math.

Hectors Farm is 6 acres. That's it. Lets say you can pack 1,000 tobacco plants on an acre (the real number is probably closer to half that, but 1k makes the math easy) Each tobacco plant has 16 or 17 harvestable leaves per year, or 32 "half leaves" which we consider a full leaf for rolling/cigar construction purposes. 

So BEST CASE scenario, if every leaf is near perfect and usable for "Ultra Premiums" like RE's Hectors farm generates about 192,000 half cigar leaves per harvest. TOTAL, split between wrapper, ligero, seco and volado. Oh and don't forget to take 10% off those numbers for Hectors personal cut.

A sublimes requires at least 5 half leaves (if they're large) to roll. So that's 2.25 million leaves, just for this 450k cigar run. Or almost 12 years of Harvests from Hectors farm. Even 1 half leaf per cigar would be more than 2 years worth of production for the ENITRE FARM.  

Phonecian have proven themselves liars and it looks like they're doing their best to add thieves to the list. They are stealing from Hector (unless they cut him a HUGE and illegal check to use his name to sell cigars) I wonder if anyone at the event told Hector where all his Tobacco was heading for the next 12 years. 

I understand how the world works, so I wouldn't blame Phenecian for 1 "mess up", but they are well past the line at this point. There are Dupers and Dupees. If you buy these cigars You're getting DUPED!! 

[CaptainQuintero]

Damn, get off the fence Cory 

[TheMonk]

4 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

They may be the largest, on the books. I'm not an expert on the exact numbers, Rob is certainly a better resource there. However, the number of cigars that enter China and the number of cigars that LEGALLY enter China are VASTLY different. I can't find the exact post now, but Rob has mentioned multiple, full 40' shipping containers crossing the border illegally. I agree 100% that China is the largest CC market on the planet, but PCC competes with multiple other supply streams. 

NOPE. ZERO Chance. I cant be anymore clear about that. Lets look at some quick and dirty math.

Hectors Farm is 6 acres. That's it. Lets say you can pack 1,000 tobacco plants on an acre (the real number is probably closer to half that, but 1k makes the math easy) Each tobacco plant has 16 or 17 harvestable leaves per year, or 32 "half leaves" which we consider a full leaf for rolling/cigar construction purposes. 

So BEST CASE scenario, if every leaf is near perfect and usable for "Ultra Premiums" like RE's Hectors farm generates about 192,000 half cigar leaves per harvest. TOTAL, split between wrapper, ligero, seco and volado. Oh and don't forget to take 10% off those numbers for Hectors personal cut.

A sublimes requires at least 5 half leaves (if they're large) to roll. So that's 2.25 million leaves, just for this 450k cigar run. Or almost 12 years of Harvests from Hectors farms. Even 1 half leaf per cigar would be more than 2 years worth of production for the ENITRE FARM.  

Phonecian have proven themselves liars and it looks like they're doing their best to add thieves to the list. They are stealing from Hector (unless they cut him a HUGE and illegal check to use his name to sell cigars) I wonder if anyone at the event told Hector where all his Tobacco was heading for the next 12 years. 

I understand how the world works, so I wouldn't blame Phenecian for 1 "mess up", but they are well past the line at this point. There are Dupers and Dupees. If you buy these cigars You're getting DUPED!! 

Brilliant. Thank you for putting it so simple and out in the open. It does seem Phoenicia's current marketing policy is to make outrageous claims that they know aren't true and/or can't live up to. I know there's a lot of money to be made in cigars, but I hope other distributors don't go down this very sad and shameful route.

[NSXCIGAR]

 

On 4/16/2019 at 9:11 PM, Corylax18 said:

Hectors Farm is 6 acres. That's it. Lets say you can pack 1,000 tobacco plants on an acre (the real number is probably closer to half that, but 1k makes the math easy) Each tobacco plant has 16 or 17 harvestable leaves per year, or 32 "half leaves" which we consider a full leaf for rolling/cigar construction purposes. 

I was wondering about that as well. Could he even provide enough leaf for a run like that. And how much wrapper does he grow? How could he possibly produce 250,000 large top tier wrapper leaves? I had forgotten his finca was only 6 acres and it seems your math is quite reasonable based on that size.

Obviously, the tobacco has already been harvested...I suppose it's possible Cubatabaco's been hanging on to all of Hector's leaf for the last 3-5 years and can roll 500k Sublimes with it. 

Most likely Phoenicia's just full of crap.

[TheMonk]

6 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 

I was wondering about that as well. Could he even provide enough leaf for a run like that. And how much wrapper does he grow? How could he possibly produce 250,000 large top tier wrapper leaves? I had forgotten his finca was only 6 acres and it seems your math is quite reasonable based on that size.

Obviously, the tobacco has already been harvested...I suppose it's possible Cubatabaco's been hanging on to all of Hector's leaf for the last 3-5 years and can roll 500k Sublimes with it. 

Most likely Phoenicia's just full of crap.

It's possible, because if there's something we all know is how thoroughly well HSA plans ahead. ?

[MPS]

Sad state of affairs from Phoenicia. They continue to bamboozle their customers. 

[Corylax18]

10 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 

I was wondering about that as well. Could he even provide enough leaf for a run like that. And how much wrapper does he grow? How could he possibly produce 250,000 large top tier wrapper leaves? I had forgotten his finca was only 6 acres and it seems your math is quite reasonable based on that size.

Obviously, the tobacco has already been harvested...I suppose it's possible Cubatabaco's been hanging on to all of Hector's leaf for the last 3-5 years and can roll 500k Sublimes with it. 

Most likely Phoenicia's just full of crap.

Exactly,  The wrapper would probably be the real bottle neck. Last year Hector planted about 2.5 Acres of Wrapper leaf. Using the math above that would be 80-90k half wrapper leaves of Varying size and quality. All of them wouldn't be big enough to wrap a Sublimes or graded high enough to wrap and EL. 

If Phonecian was selling 30k or 40k cigars it would be plausible that they had pulled some tobacco for the last few years, but not for 450,000. That's a HUGE amount of cigars. 

Even if they use the "Best" 100 rollers at Partagas, which would be a sizable chunk of the entire staff, that would only be about 5000 cigars a day. (50 each) That's 90 working days of rolling or more than 4 months. That would mean no Cohiba, Trinidad or any other Ultra premium rolled at Partaga for 4 months. 

If Pheonecian is being honest about these things they would be perfectly in line chagrining $100 or $150 a stick, just for the cigars. Who knows what those super fancy, amazing Ellie Blue Humidors are going to add to the cost. 

[Ryan]

That is a bunch of heavy-hitters at that top table. Mohammed Zeidan, Walid Saleh, Hector Luis, Cueto, Inocente Nuñez, Leopoldo Cintra etc..

Something new out of this report is the statement "The leaves will come from the Hector Luis farm". Whether or not that is 100% true, it is the first time, to my knowledge, that a "single-estate" Cuban cigar has been announced since the revolution. That is, all tobacco from a single farm, with the farmer being named. Recognising individual merit is hardly the most "Communist" of ideas. I could be wrong but I don't think even Alejandro Robaina got that.

The new "Le Hoyo" series came close but tobacco for those cigars comes (apparently) from named sorting regions (San Juan, Rio Seco) not farms.

I know Habanos have said all kinds of things in the past and there have been some great efforts here at estimating Hector's output but you never know.

On 4/17/2019 at 5:11 AM, Corylax18 said:

Lets say you can pack 1,000 tobacco plants on an acre (the real number is probably closer to half that, but 1k makes the math easy) 

I really like the maths you've done, but the real number of plants per acre is conservatively 10 times that.

Rows of plants are 24 - 30 inches apart and plants within a row are about 18 inches apart. That works out to at least 10,000 plants per acre, and I think I'm being very conservative as I'll show you.

I can remember being shocked at how many cigars an acre of tobacco can produce.

Recent reports have said that Hector has expanded his planting, once source says 6 hectares (15 acres) another said 16 acres. So 15-16 acres is near enough, those sources have interviewed Hector himself.

To give an idea about how much tobacco can be produced per acre.

I have visited Francisco Milían (Pancho Cuba) a few times over the years. He farms about 9 acres. When we visited in 2013 he had lost a few of his 9 acres to Black Shank. He has a habit of planting his own seeds, taking a gamble, rather than the seeds recommended in a given year by the Tobacco Research Institute. He says the gamble normally pays off.

You can see it in the picture below. A field of rotting tobacco. Given that a football field is just over an acre, you can see there's at least a couple of acres there.

That same trip as the picture above, he produced a notebook showing us the tobacco he harvested that year from his remaining acres. The bottom of the page showed what he gets paid for shade and sun grown tobacco, I "redacted" that part, as these things can have a habit of getting out.

Anyway, his notebook shows 1.26 million leaves of "Tapado" (shade grown) and 2.2 million leaves of Sol (sun-grown). 

You can see, he estimates 988,000 cigars (tabacos) from that amount of leaves. Some might say that that's a very rough estimate but I'd imagine Pancho Cuba knows more about these things than most of us do. Plus, I don't think he had any reason to lie to us.

So that's 988,000 cigars from a 9 acre farm, in a year where at least a couple of his acres of plants had rotted in the field.

So, getting back to Hector, 450,000 cigars from 15-16 acres is possible, with lots left over. It's possibly only 25% of his crop, or less.

Whether the story is true or not, as you say. Well that's a different matter. It's one of those things about Cuba that transcends tobacco, people will tell you what they think you want to hear. That's not always a bad thing, very often they mean well.

 

Equally hard to believe, I know, is the statement that all the cigars will be "rolled by the best cigar rollers at the Partagás Factory under the supervision of José Castelar, a.k.a Cueto"

Having said that, the Partagas factory apparently puts out 4 - 5 million hand-rolled cigars per year. So 450,000 cigars would be about 10% of annual output. Potentially doable.

This last picture is Punch Joe standing between 2 rows of tobacco, this is in a field of Hector's neighbour. You can see the distance between the rows.

 

 

[Puros Y Vino]

6 minutes ago, Ryan said:

You can see it in the picture below. A field of rotting tobacco. Given that a football field is just over an acre, you can see there's at least a couple of acres there.

 

 

Fascinating insight there Ryan.  The picture above makes me sadder than any Fauxhiba pics.    

[Corylax18]

@Ryan Thanks for the math check Andy, you're completely right. 10,000 an acre would mean about 4 sq ft per plant. Which seems perfectly feasible. But, that's still only 1.9 million total leaves per 6 acres. Even if every leaf is big enough and graded high enough for use in an RE that's still not enough to roll 450,000 sublimes. 

I read that he had received more acreage as well, but the article (for what its worth I think it was in Granma) said the government gave it to him to grow vegetables, not Tobacco. The article admitted that nobody had grown on that land for years because of "declining yields". I think its even shadier if the tobacco is coming from that new acreage. That would set a very concerning precedent. 

I asked Hector about the extra acreage when we where there in November. He grunted and dismissively waived his hand, he didn't want to talk about it. I asked Osvaldo and he said it "wasn't a priority" This was smack in the middle of preparing the fields for the last harvest. They were also dealing with replanting most of their seedlings after heavy rains. I can't personally confirm if they did or didn't grow tobacco (or anything) on that land during the last season. Even if they did, I can't imagine that tobacco would be of the same quality as the stuff he's known for. I'll be in Havana next week, I doubt I'll get the chance to talk to Hector or Osvaldo, but if I do, I will ask them about plants/hectare and about Phoenicians claim.

That sheet of notes is worth its weight in Gold! Very cool. But now I'm confused. If I read it right: Pancho planted 70,000 shade grown plants across 16 hectares and harvested 1,260,000 million leaves or 18 per plant. I'm confused by the 16h, 14h and 12h, 40 hectares is closer to 90 acres than 9. 70,000 stems planted on 16 hectares (or 39.5 acres) would be 1,772 plants an acre. 158,000 sun grown plants planted on 14 hectares (lets say 34.5 acres) comes out to about 4,579 plants an acre. If he really did harvest 268,000 plants across 9 acres that's almost 30,000 plants an acre. I find that number hard to believe, especially if that was a "below average" year. 

Rolling them all at Partagas is more feasible, but still highly unlikely. If anybody has the stroke to do it, it would be the group in that room. But I'm still very skeptical about the whole thing. I didn't know that about the "Le Hoyo" line, thanks for sharing. Also, thanks for sharing that picture of Punch Joe. I WILL see him next week and I'll make sure he knows we're always thinking about him. ?

[Vortigan]

Another one for the collectors...

[Ryan]

12 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

That sheet of notes is worth its weight in Gold! Very cool. But now I'm confused. If I read it right: Pancho planted 70,000 shade grown plants across 16 hectares and harvested 1,260,000 million leaves or 18 per plant. I'm confused by the 16h, 14h and 12h,

I know, not all of it makes sense. Pancho Cuba, as far as I know, has 9 acres, I do know he lost a couple of acres that year to fungus. But that was the calculation he had done, and he had done it to work out how much he thought he would earn for his tobacco. I don't think he had any reason to make that up for us. We weren't on an official tour.

As for the 16h, 14h and 12h. My guess is the "h" stands for "Hojas", leaves. So leaves per plant.

Regarding Hector's increased acreage.

Here's Brooks from Halfwheel reporting that Hector told him he grew 6 hectares (about 15 acres) of tobacco in 2017, a bad year for growing, says Hector.

https://halfwheel.com/portraits-hector-luis-prieto

Greg Mottola says the same the year before. Actually, that article is interesting, the last few paragraphs, talking about another plot of land Hector has for growing tobacco "used for Cohiba's Selección de selecciónes". Another bad year for growing, says Hector.

https://www.cigaraficionado.com/article/out-of-the-brick-red-soil-a-visit-to-the-prieto-farm-18643

Punch Joe will have his own thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. He certainly knows more about this than most people.

Have a great time in Cuba and please give him my regards! That picture of him is inspecting the damage I had done after trying to steer that ox in the background.

[Drguano]

Brilliant discussion. My only comment is that I generally love the Libanos RE cigars (except for the prices) and look forward to trying this one.

[BJRPorter]

Excellent pictures, and planting info. Thank you.