What percent of flavor does wrapper add to cigar?

[Randy956]

11 minutes ago, BarryVT said:

Ok, everyone agrees a cigar would taste dramatically different if one component was to be removed from cigar. You have wrapper, binder, valado , seco and ligero. So that being said, mathmatically, wouldn't each contribute equally at 20%?

Not at all.

  Tobacco leaf are not all the same strength nor the same body profile, even if they are the same classification such as seco.   One leaf of ligero doesn't equal one leaf of seco, for example, in flavor or body.  Two completely different leaf and each leaf contributes differently to the cigar and it's not a 1 to 1 ratio.

There are huge differences between different types of seco for example.  Sometimes I blend with two different seco leafs to get a particular flavor or body profile I want in a cigar.  Sometimes I use two different ligero leafs for a particular profile.

Also, it's a myth that seco and valodo don't contribute much to the flavor profile.  Changing either one of those leafs with something else can have a dramatic affect on flavor of the cigar. 

I do find it amusing that some of the so called industry experts and who write magazine articles will spout such nonsense as seco and valado not having much influence the flavor profile or body of a cigar.   It's nonsense.

 

 

[Randy956]

18 minutes ago, Riverstyx said:

How is it?  More flavorful than a typical cigar?  Burn issues?  

That's good question. 

It depends on the leaf, and usually it's not really like smoking a well blended cigar.  Take a strong ligero, for example.  I may roll a few leafs and light it.  It will not be that pleasant (usually) but it does give me an idea as to how it might work with a particular viso.  But make no mistake, a shitty leaf will always be a shitty leaf no matter how one tries to disguise it in a blend.

Sometimes however, some leaf is pretty good on it's own without having the support of other kinds of tobacco leaf.  But most likely it will be pretty one dimensional when testing it out. 

Burn issue:  One test I do is to light the center of the leaf and see if it continues to smolder or burn on it's own.  Some leaf is almost fireproof, some burns quite readily.  If it won't burn I don't even mess with it.  No point.

Incidentally, I'd love to get my hands on some Cuban leaf to experiment with but as far as I know, impossible to get.

[Randy956]

I don't mean to come off as a "know it all" about cigars.  All I know is that one cannot say that across all cigar blends that the wrapper, or any other leaf contributes a given percent to the blend.  It's simply not possible.

You can, however, say that on a cigar you know well that the wrapper is perceived to 'possibly' contribute a particular percent to that particular blend.

I don't know that I could do that because taste is so complex and it would be difficult for me to break down the different flavors/strengths into percentages.   But that's just me.

[Colt45]

5 hours ago, Randy956 said:

Some sticks it has a huge affect, others not so much.

Absolutely.

5 hours ago, Randy956 said:

The answer.. it depends on the cigar blend.  

Or the wrapper....

[El Presidente]

 

5 hours ago, BarryVT said:

Ok, everyone agrees a cigar would taste dramatically different if one component was to be removed from cigar. You have wrapper, binder, valado , seco and ligero. So that being said, mathmatically, wouldn't each contribute equally at 20%?

But if it is a completely different cigar experience .......then grasshopper, would not the change be total..ie 100%

[BarryVT]

Oh Prez! Ok it's like eating a pepperoni pizza, then eating a cheese pizza. You still taste all the ingredients of the cheese pizza minus flavor of pepperoni.  100% would be like eating a cheese pizza then eating a steak.

[Randy956]

Or the wrapper....

Ha! Yes the blend INCLUDING the wrapper.

I’ll go with the 100 percent. I’m convinced and agree. Change the wrapper and it’s a different cigar.

[Puros Y Vino]

I'm surprised no one referenced this thread from 2008.  CoRo to Cohiba Maduro 5 wrapper exchange.

[NSXCIGAR]

This is absolutely impossible to answer in a broad sense. It is only quantifiable for each individual cigar and that cigar's blend.

If a cigar is rolled using flavorless filler but a flavorful wrapper then that will naturally contribute a high percentage of flavor coming from the wrapper, and vice versa. 

Generally, wrapper is a low priming, and therefore would tend to be less flavorful than seco or ligero filler. EL and maduro wrapper is a higher priming but the aging of the EL wrapper and the additional fermentation of the maduro wrapper might mellow the overall flavor a bit.

My sense is that the wrapper typically is going to be the minority of the flavor contribution. I would speculate that a wrapper providing the majority of flavor, let alone 90% of it is just not realistic in a CC over 28 RG. 

[PigFish]

... a late comer here.

Do you believe in flavor profiles?

Do you believe in extensive wrapper influence?

Some of you then have created a paradox. This could mean cigar "A" wrapped with a dark wrapper tastes significantly different than cigar "A" with a light wrapper. Which wrapper then creates or destroys the "profile." Then one begs to ask, how significant a change 'breaks' the profile? Can cigars then come in different shades and be the same cigar? How can the same cigar, one that expresses significant taste different be the "same" cigar as those it differs from and then satisfy the profile? ...by the band you put on it? (I can have real fun asking more of these questions.)

I can imagine homogenizing a few cigars and wrappers and making controlled blends to smoke in an insert pipe. My guess, depending on the depth of the study; a very small percentage would correlate in blind tasting. Smoker smokes 5 samples and is able to rate them in color, and the ringer is two samples the same. I have my doubts that many people would even match the samples that were technically identical.

Food for thought!

-the Pig

[99call]

32 minutes ago, PigFish said:

... a late comer here.

Do you believe in flavor profiles?

Do you believe in extensive wrapper influence?

Some of you then have created a paradox. This could mean cigar "A" wrapped with a dark wrapper tastes significantly different than cigar "A" with a light wrapper. Which wrapper then creates or destroys the "profile." Then one begs to ask, how significant a change 'breaks' the profile? Can cigars then come in different shades and be the same cigar? How can the same cigar, one that expresses significant taste different be the "same" cigar as those it differs from and then satisfy the profile? ...by the band you put on it? (I can have real fun asking more of these questions.)

I can imagine homogenizing a few cigars and wrappers and making controlled blends to smoke in an insert pipe. My guess, depending on the depth of the study; a very small percentage would correlate in blind tasting. Smoker smokes 5 samples and is able to rate them in color, and the ringer is two samples the same. I have my doubts that many people would even match the samples that were technically identical.

Food for thought!

-the Pig

Would be interested to here your breakdown, on the 'truism of likeness' i.e   You've always been very staunch on the principle that every cigars is entirely its own entity, an idea that I have mixed feelings on. I can see where you're coming from, but I also think it has very definite limits. 

So, say in a box of RGPC, what percentage of similarity to you (through experience) see in:

- two cigars sat next to each other in one given box?

- two cigars taken of the same shade wrapper, from two different boxes of the same year and month and code

- two cigars taken from different boxes of the same shade wrapper, from the same year and month, but different code. 

personally I believe two cigars from the same box, 'can' be vastly different, but as a truism, is would guestimate (through my experience) that as a truism, they are likely to very similar to a percentage of around 75%

Be interested to hear your thoughts

[Randy956]

3 minutes ago, 99call said:

Would be interested to here your breakdown, on the 'truism of likeness' i.e   You've always been very staunch on the principle that every cigars is entirely its own entity, an idea that I have mixed feelings on. I can see where you're coming from, but I also think it has very definite limits. 

So, say in a box of RGPC, what percentage of similarity to you (through experience) see in:

- two cigars sat next to each other in one given box?

- two cigars taken of the same shade wrapper, from two different boxes of the same year and month and code

- two cigars taken from different boxes of the same shade wrapper, from the same year and month, but different code. 

personally I believe two cigars from the same box, 'can' be vastly different, but as a truism, is would guestimate (through my experience) that as a truism, they are likely to very similar to a percentage of around 75%

Be interested to hear your thoughts

As an engineer I cannot assign numerical weights to the flavor profile each leaf brings to the mix.  It's not possible

I can say that substituting any one leaf including wrapper for another leaf (perhaps not the binder) will change the cigar such that it's not the same stick.  So assign any numerical value you wish to individual leaf.    Please keep in mind that a cigar flavor profile is not developed from a single leaf, rather the flavor is developed with each leaf working in concert with other leaf.  Combining leaf is how the complex flavors are developed as the flavor of a single leaf doesn't stand on its own.  Two leaf combined together will taste entirely different when burned, than either of the single leaf will.  Blending is a complicated business I tell ya.

[Randy956]

Didn't mean to reply directly to your post.  

I'm sure different cigars laying next to one another for a long time will slightly influence the flavor profile of each, however, my guess is that it's so light as to not be significant.

Cigars coming from the same box don't all taste exactly the same so I don't know how one would conduct such an experiment as to compare...

[99call]

2 minutes ago, Randy956 said:

As an engineer I cannot assign numerical weights to the flavor profile each leaf brings to the mix.  It's not possible

I can say that substituting any one leaf including wrapper for another leaf (perhaps not the binder) will change the cigar such that it's not the same stick.  So assign any numerical value you wish to individual leaf.    Please keep in mind that a cigar flavor profile is not developed from a single leaf, rather the flavor is developed with each leaf working in concert with other leaf.  Combining leaf is how the complex flavors are developed as the flavor of a single leaf doesn't stand on its own.  Two leaf combined together will taste entirely different when burned, than either of the single leaf will.  Blending is a complicated business I tell ya.

Sorry, no, I was going off on a different tangent to the original thread.   My interest was based on Rays comments, that seemed to focus on, and question the reliability of saying any given cigar 'should' taste a certain way, with regards to brand, wrapper, filler etc etc. 

What I was questioning is the idea of 'truism'.  I cannot say to someone a fresh box of dark wrapper RGPC 'will' get a specific experience from a any given cigar in that box, but........BUT we do edge our bets of 'truisms', a certain degree of reliability.   We smoke through one excellent box of 2017 LRG Cuaba Diademas, and we buy another in the hope it will be similar. 

In a round about way, I was questioning the percentage point drop off, off similarity, the further and further you get from two cigars sat next to each other in a box. 

[Randy956]

8 minutes ago, 99call said:

Sorry, no, I was going off on a different tangent to the original thread.   My interest was based on Rays comments, that seemed to focus on, and question the reliability of saying any given cigar 'should' taste a certain way, with regards to brand, wrapper, filler etc etc. 

What I was questioning is the idea of 'truism'.  I cannot say to someone a fresh box of dark wrapper RGPC 'will' get a specific experience from a any given cigar in that box, but........BUT we do edge our bets of 'truisms', a certain degree of reliability.   We smoke through one excellent box of 2017 LRG Cuaba Diademas, and we buy another in the hope it will be similar. 

In a round about way, I was questioning the percentage point drop off, off similarity, the further and further you get from two cigars sat next to each other in a box. 

ya know, I do store all of my Cubans intermixed with one another so they can get happy with one another.  I have no idea if they interact with one another, however, on a certain level I expect they do. 

[PigFish]

On 11/6/2018 at 9:05 AM, 99call said:

Would be interested to here your breakdown, on the 'truism of likeness' i.e   You've always been very staunch on the principle that every cigars is entirely its own entity, an idea that I have mixed feelings on. I can see where you're coming from, but I also think it has very definite limits. 

So, say in a box of RGPC, what percentage of similarity to you (through experience) see in:

- two cigars sat next to each other in one given box?

- two cigars taken of the same shade wrapper, from two different boxes of the same year and month and code

- two cigars taken from different boxes of the same shade wrapper, from the same year and month, but different code. 

personally I believe two cigars from the same box, 'can' be vastly different, but as a truism, is would guestimate (through my experience) that as a truism, they are likely to very similar to a percentage of around 75%

Be interested to hear your thoughts

.. a lot in your post. I would like to get back to it, just don't have as much time as I like during the week. 

Cheers! -R

[BG1165]

I'm guessing that it represents whatever % of weight it is of the cigar. Add maybe a few percent because it's a direct contact point. Flavors would be a different topic.

[NSXCIGAR]

Can't we just take a bunch of wrappers off a bunch of different cigars and stick each in a pipe? 

Seems pretty simple to me. Smoke only a wrapper leaf. How flavorful is it? Are there differences in light and dark? 

And can't a cigar be smoked without a wrapper? 

Just asking...

 

10 hours ago, BG1165 said:

I'm guessing that it represents whatever % of weight it is of the cigar. Add maybe a few percent because it's a direct contact point. Flavors would be a different topic.

This would be the same as volume or leaf percentage essentially. And again, some wrapper, like Connecticut Broadleaf, is notoriously mild in flavor. One ligero leaf would be more flavorful than 5 Connecticut leaves--or an infinite number of mild leaves.

So it is the nature of the leaf, not the weight, volume or percentage of leaf in a cigar. 

[MD Puffer]

On 10/18/2018 at 4:01 PM, El Presidente said:

 

But if it is a completely different cigar experience .......then grasshopper, would not the change be total..ie 100%

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[Colt45]

Are wrapper leaves bred / processed to have no flavor? If yes, then they'd have no impact on overall flavor. If no, then the results of any number of experiments hold true.