The factors at play that find you on the HSA gallows?

[El Presidente]

Paraphrasing, a member asked the following question the other day; “ How come the Upmann Petit Corona was discontinued and yet the Rafael Gonzalez Petit Corona continues to survive?” 

Fair question I would think. I certainly don’t have an answer. The RG Petit Corona is an excellent cigar with plenty of fans here (including me), but sales never ever came close to the Upmann PC.  

Extending the question; “why is it that some cigars such as the Sancho Panza Non Plus” are permitted to survive?”. It can’t be that the sales numbers are so good.  

So what factors are in play?   

Over to you. I would love to here your theories  I will post mine tomorrow. 

 

[Andy04]

Wasn't the H.Upmann Petit Corona exactly the same dimensions as the Coronas Major?  Did H.Upmann really need 2 identical sizes?

 

But to answer your question, I would believe that particular tobaccos are suitable for the flavor profiles of specific marcas.  The tobacco going into a non plus needs to go somewhere as the flavors wouldn't suit many other marcas. 

[dangolf18]

Perhaps the tobacco is being allocated to other (probably better-selling) vitolas. Or allocated to new vitolas. The tobacco that was being used for the HUPC could have been needed for the new Mag 54 and Connaisseur B....both higher priced cigars.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[canadianbeaver]

Maybe the half corona takes its place, since this vitola is now created in Montecristo too. Upmann was created first, and when we first saw it, thought, oh gee, Nub!

We go through them like boxes of Kleenex. Especially in winter.

CB

[Shaunster]

Was the upmann petit corona a big seller worldwide? I doubt it.

In Europe it was simply too expensive for such a cigar, the majestic is much cheaper and the coronas major is slightly cheaper, it wouldn't surprise me if it hardly sold in Europe, but of course I dont have the figures to prove that.

[Islandboy]

It seems a flatter market saturation with many of the regular production vitolas is a factor, as HSA is taking a more aggressive business approach to their enterprise. They’ve embraced the fact that most of their customers can’t resist the attraction of limited production cigars, and new releases, scooping them up while available, and paying a premium to do so. And why not...they represent something new and shiny (I know I’m guilty). Premium tobacco needs to be redirected towards this effort. It seems to me those in charge at HSA are more business savvy than most of us would like to admit. 

[Piligrim]

probably one of the reasons, Sancho Panza and RG both have not a lot of different vitolas and cutting any of those, you may kill the marca. speaking on mareva size HUPC doesn't have big sales in Russia. as I can see from my own sales, most succesfull are Monte 4, Partagas Mille Fleur, PLPC

[Fugu]

A combination of the above, some spot-on answers already.

Core answer, in a nutshell, is: global brand - local brand...

As for the HUPC - a high-quality cigar that took in the place of the No.4 when that had been discontinued. There still is some cannibalization within the marca due to three very similar, former machine-made formats at considerably lower pricing (Coronas Major, Regalias, Majestic, some of this addressed in this thread). Most people do not or just cannot appreciate the differences to the dearer PC. And before diverting ('wasting') good tobacco into such an 'unassuming' format like the PC...... they decided they could make much more of it in the "hot" releases catering to the "modern smoker".

For its market position as a global brand, they have to consider global trends more closely and allocate high-in-demand tobacco carefully.

The other two marcas, local brands mind you, those are made in limited numbers anyway. But they still have a sound following in their classic core markets, i.e. England (UK) and Spain. Two countries at that, which are quite influential on/within HSA. But it is not at all as if they had been safe from the axe in recent years. So, there also comes into play TM considerations, as previous posters addressed. Sancho Panza with only two formats remaining, RG with just two and a half (had been down to two after 2009 when they killed the CE).... A brand has to be used, and it is not too huge a commitment to keep a Marevas alive, which is using up only comparatively small amounts of unique tobacco anyway.

[Fuzz AI]

The HUPC snubbed the police chief's daughter.

[canadianbeaver]

Here’s another question. When someone I meet finds out I am interested in cigars, they ask, “Have I ever smoked a Romeo and Juliette number one? That kind is really the best you know.”

Do not mean to be a snob, but I find the HCPC in this price point and quality. How ever, perhaps we often omit the quantity of this sales category.

And just to add a bit more, several years back, I used HUPC at a trade show for my coffee where I thought BOTL’s might attend. Dig this!

Cheers,

CB

[SCgarman]

I am the member who posed the question to Rob. While we may never know, the HUPC was one of my favorite cigars while it lasted. As far as price point, it was on par with Monte4, BPC, and other Marevas. I would have thought for sure the RafaelG PC or Sancho would have been axed for sure. There is no way these could be bigger sellers than a global marca such as Upmann. I have never tried the Regalias. Perhaps they might be a suitable replacement when my HUPC supply is gone. Maybe not. I know Rob kept a whole mastercase of HUPC for himself. So that certainly says something. I am definitely envious. 

 

[ayepatz]

I reckon they look at FOH and think, “Oh, this’ll annoy them.” ?

[dvickery]

8 hours ago, El Presidente said:

 

So what factors are in play?   

 

 

$$$$

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, NYgarman said:

 I would have thought for sure the RafaelG PC or Sancho would have been axed for sure.

You'd think, but RG and SP have pretty much pinned themselves in with their remaining models. Kill the RGPC and the SPNP and you're taking both marcas down to one long-filler model. Not that HSA isn't capable of doing that (Dip) but in RG's case that would mean only a Perlas remain. I could see SP being cut down to the Beli however. 

Similarly, I can see the RyJ PC being cut sooner than the RGPC or SPNP. RyJ has 4 other Marevas and even though the RyJ PC sales blow away RG and SP combined it's probably a far less profitable allocation of leaf in that marca. 

[David88]

While you can understand some deletions some just make no sense, at least from my point of view. H upmann is a busy marca with new additions on the way so something has to go to make room. I get that. But the pc? Over the coronas major/minor/junior? 

Then you look at Bolivar. The corona gigantes was sacrificed when one of the corona junior and pc would have, maybe, been an easier pill to take? 

Unfortunately I think if a marca doesn’t get the big numbers in sales, it’s going to be cut down to the bare bones (unless said marca is cuaba!)

This has made me think though.....we’re due 2018s chopping list soon! Who will be next!?

[canadianbeaver]

35 minutes ago, David88 said:

While you can understand some deletions some just make no sense, at least from my point of view. H upmann is a busy marca with new additions on the way so something has to go to make room. I get that. But the pc? Over the coronas major/minor/junior? 

This comment intrigued me. M/M/J?

Took one look at Trevor’s page to tell me. 

Tubos.

And they travel oh so well.

CB

[David88]

1 minute ago, canadianbeaver said:

This comment intrigued me. M/M/J?

Took one look at Trevor’s page to tell me. 

Tubos.

And they travel oh so well.

CB

Yes cheaper tubos, readily available at any good Duty Free/wine merchants. Obviously I'm not knocking them, there is clearly a market for them and they must be selling! But maybe one of those could have been sacrificed over the PC?

[canadianbeaver]

2 minutes ago, David88 said:

Yes cheaper tubos, readily available at any good Duty Free/wine merchants. Obviously I'm not knocking them, there is clearly a market for them and they must be selling! But maybe one of those could have been sacrificed over the PC?

Absolutely. Maybe they have 10,0000000000 tubes lolololol

[David88]

23 minutes ago, canadianbeaver said:

Absolutely. Maybe they have 10,0000000000 tubes lolololol

You should be expecting a strongly worded email from HSA any day now, you have unveiled their strategic future product plan!

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, David88 said:

But the pc? Over the coronas major/minor/junior? 

Yes. Sure, the PC sells well in absolute numbers but one would need to know relative model sales numbers that we just don't have access to. A calculation needs to be made about where that PC tobacco should be used. The small HU tubos (CMa, CMi, CJ) are huge sellers worldwide--I doubt they can produce enough of them. Same with the Regalias, Majestics and Epicures. How valuable is the leaf going into the PC versus allocating it to these other models including newer cigars or even the ELs and Habanos Specialist releases? 

I guess I'm just not as surprised as others that the HUPC got the axe. As I said, I'd be even less surprised when the RyJ PC gets cut as it's an almost identical situation. 

4 hours ago, David88 said:

Then you look at Bolivar. The corona gigantes was sacrificed when one of the corona junior and pc would have, maybe, been an easier pill to take? 

No. First, Boli and HU are apples and oranges. Here you have all long-filler models where one model (BCG) is the worst seller by far and the other models, particularly the BBF, is a huge seller for Boli. I'd venture to guess the BCG sales were extremely low compared to the other models in the Boli lineup, and the BCG was not much more profitable per gram than the BCJ. Can't argue that a reallocation of BCG leaf was financially prudent. 

I think BPC is a fairly good seller, but again I wouldn't be tremendously shocked if the BPC also gets cut. Boli gets a lot of EL and ER action and also BBF is likely always barely meeting demand. As far as the BCJ, HSA has some kind of resistance to cutting Minutos. Not one has ever been cut post-Rev.

4 hours ago, David88 said:

Unfortunately I think if a marca doesn’t get the big numbers in sales, it’s going to be cut down to the bare bones (unless said marca is cuaba!)

HSA has clearly demonstrated they have no problem cutting marcas down to one model for slow-selling marcas (Dip, SLR, QdO, LGC). I fear the SPNP is definitely a prime target with the RGPC a distant second just because I think they'd think twice about leaving the marca with just a Perlas for long-filler. 

The flipside is that it appears HSA does give attention to these marcas with decent special release representation on a regular basis. I wish the prices were a bit lower for these as they once had been but I think we just need to accept this as their new approach for the forseeable future. 

[kalibratecuba]

"Ah, I'll be back. You'll see! They'll all see, see." - HUPC

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[El Presidente]

You fine members have covered it well 

I made a point in my reply that the Monte 4 would outsell every other premium PC combined 7:3 

The Upmann PC was a solid performer and we sold them in droves but we are not normal retailers.  I am taking a punt but it is hardly a riskky statement to say that each of the other Upmann PC formats or "near" PC formats outsold it heavily. 

Surely it outsold the Rafael Gonzalez PC?  Absolutely and all of Sancho Panza as well. 

However, HSA must use their brands/trademarks if they wish to keep them. There are strict international rules and timeframes. This is additionally clouded by the legal case going on in the USA re Cuban trademarks. 

So you can't just drop Diplomatico/Rafael Gonzales or La Gloria Cubana and put them in the bottom draw to use in 10 or 20 years time. 

Legal trademark attorneys among us may wish to expand and my understanding is rudimentary at best. 

 

 

 

 

 

[LGC]

The “middle class” smoker seems to be a dying breed. The average smoker doesn’t buy intact boxes and leave boxes untouched. The lower price point and/or tubo flash will appeal to novices buying cheap gifts,

or those looking for an “affordable” smoke. It’s amazing how many folks won’t break the $5/$6 barrier for a cigar... just like people will buy certain cars just to save 2-3 mpg on gas. On the other hand, there are the top shelf smokers whom think that more bands, fancy boxes, and big price tags equates with a superior smoking experience every time. Personally... my dream would be to have a stockpile of just TPCs, PCs, Coronas , and lonsdales

 

Regardless ... HSA just comes up with the ridiculous strategies. It’s the average consumer that solidifies their direction....

 

[SCgarman]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

You fine members have covered it well 

I made a point in my reply that the Monte 4 would outsell every other premium PC combined 7:3 

The Upmann PC was a solid performer and we sold them in droves but we are not normal retailers.  I am taking a punt but it is hardly a riskky statement to say that each of the other Upmann PC formats or "near" PC formats outsold it heavily. 

Surely it outsold the Rafael Gonzalez PC?  Absolutely and all of Sancho Panza as well. 

However, HSA must use their brands/trademarks if they wish to keep them. There are strict international rules and timeframes. This is additionally clouded by the legal case going on in the USA re Cuban trademarks. 

So you can't just drop Diplomatico/Rafael Gonzales or La Gloria Cubana and put them in the bottom draw to use in 10 or 20 years time. 

Legal trademark attorneys among us may wish to expand and my understanding is rudimentary at best. 

 

 

 

 

 

Enjoy that mastercase of HUPC's you saved. Wise move. Wish I had the $$ and humidor space, I would have done the same. I could smoke that cigar until the end of my days, thoroughly enjoy it! 

[David88]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Yes. Sure, the PC sells well in absolute numbers but one would need to know relative model sales numbers that we just don't have access to. A calculation needs to be made about where that PC tobacco should be used. The small HU tubos (CMa, CMi, CJ) are huge sellers worldwide--I doubt they can produce enough of them. Same with the Regalias, Majestics and Epicures. How valuable is the leaf going into the PC versus allocating it to these other models including newer cigars or even the ELs and Habanos Specialist releases? 

I guess I'm just not as surprised as others that the HUPC got the axe. As I said, I'd be even less surprised when the RyJ PC gets cut as it's an almost identical situation. 

No. First, Boli and HU are apples and oranges. Here you have all long-filler models where one model (BCG) is the worst seller by far and the other models, particularly the BBF, is a huge seller for Boli. I'd venture to guess the BCG sales were extremely low compared to the other models in the Boli lineup, and the BCG was not much more profitable per gram than the BCJ. Can't argue that a reallocation of BCG leaf was financially prudent. 

I think BPC is a fairly good seller, but again I wouldn't be tremendously shocked if the BPC also gets cut. Boli gets a lot of EL and ER action and also BBF is likely always barely meeting demand. As far as the BCJ, HSA has some kind of resistance to cutting Minutos. Not one has ever been cut post-Rev.

HSA has clearly demonstrated they have no problem cutting marcas down to one model for slow-selling marcas (Dip, SLR, QdO, LGC). I fear the SPNP is definitely a prime target with the RGPC a distant second just because I think they'd think twice about leaving the marca with just a Perlas for long-filler. 

The flipside is that it appears HSA does give attention to these marcas with decent special release representation on a regular basis. I wish the prices were a bit lower for these as they once had been but I think we just need to accept this as their new approach for the forseeable future. 

I think it is based on a calculation and I would assume that there is a limited amount of tobacco that can be given or is suitable for each marca. While the H upmann small tubos are undoubtably big sellers I wouldn’t say that HSA can’t produce enough of them, purely because they are readily available in pretty big numbers in most places (at least in my experience so I am making a fairly big assumption). 

Withh regards to Bolivar. It can’t be compared to h upmann, but I was suggesting that the CJ and PC were of a similar size. If one were cut then that tobacco could have gone to the CG which was not a big seller but markedly different in size. I guess I just wanted to have my cake and eat it!

It is interesting that minutos have not been cut, even when sales of some can’t be high. I would agree to that the RyJ pc and SP NP are living on borrowed time at the moment