Help with exhaust system

[dominattorney]

My fiance and I just moved into our new house. I had asked the builder to install a ventilation system with two fans in the basement so I could smoke down there. Only problem is, they installed two 50 cfm bath fans with 6 inch ducts. I had asked for 1000 to preferably 1500 cfm total as the space is rather large, a 35 by 20 foot great room with 9 foot ceilings. Anyway, I'm looking at options to retro fit the system that I'm going to need and I'm coming up with more questions than answers. I was hoping some of the more mechanically inclined among the members might have some tips for me. Here's what I know so far. 

1 the room is huge, 35 by 20 by 9 feet. 

2 I only have two 6 inch ducts installed in the ceiling, where ideally o would have wanted 12 inch pipe. 

3 only one person is likely to be smoking in the room, maybe 2 at the most. 

I have explored a couple of options. Ideally, I would have wanted two in lone 700 cfm fans, but I don't think they make any that would accommodate the ducts o already have. The two alternatives o have explored are either installing 2 panasonic bath fans, each moving 380 cfm into the existing spaces,  or installing two booster fans, each that cam move 500 cfm. I am at a loss as to which option would be best. Honestly, I'm not sure whether either option would give me the exhaust power I would need to not stink up the house. I don't want to sink a grand into this project and find out if doesn't work, so I'm wondering what my best move would be. It may very well be that I have to rip up the ceilimg and stick the 700 cfm fans in and re patch the place. If that is the case, I would hire a professional. Any help you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated. 

[chris12381]

As much as increasing the cfm outflow is good, don't forget to ensure you have have a fresh air or "make up air" source. Without that, as you start pulling more and more cfm from the room, it's like sucking air through a plugged straw.

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[Corylax18]

10 minutes ago, dominattorney said:

My fiance and I just moved into our new house. I had asked the builder to install a ventilation system with two fans in the basement so I could smoke down there. Only problem is, they installed two 50 cfm bath fans with 6 inch ducts. I had asked for 1000 to preferably 1500 cfm total as the space is rather large, a 35 by 20 foot great room with 9 foot ceilings. Anyway, I'm looking at options to retro fit the system that I'm going to need and I'm coming up with more questions than answers. I was hoping some of the more mechanically inclined among the members might have some tips for me. Here's what I know so far. 

1 the room is huge, 35 by 20 by 9 feet. 

2 I only have two 6 inch ducts installed in the ceiling, where ideally o would have wanted 12 inch pipe. 

3 only one person is likely to be smoking in the room, maybe 2 at the most. 

I have explored a couple of options. Ideally, I would have wanted two in lone 700 cfm fans, but I don't think they make any that would accommodate the ducts o already have. The two alternatives o have explored are either installing 2 panasonic bath fans, each moving 380 cfm into the existing spaces,  or installing two booster fans, each that cam move 500 cfm. I am at a loss as to which option would be best. Honestly, I'm not sure whether either option would give me the exhaust power I would need to not stink up the house. I don't want to sink a grand into this project and find out if doesn't work, so I'm wondering what my best move would be. It may very well be that I have to rip up the ceilimg and stick the 700 cfm fans in and re patch the place. If that is the case, I would hire a professional. Any help you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated. 

@dominattorney You're in the Denver area right? I've helped a few buddies build and ventilate their "gardens" over the last few years. For a few hundred bucks and a few hours, we can make that basement feel like a wind tunnel. PM Me.

[dominattorney]

Thanks for the replies so far gents. I forgot to mention that another alternative I am exploring is sir purification rather than exhaust. I hear good things about the rabbit filter. Wonder if anyone else is using this product. 

[ElPuro]

Retrofitting to 10 may not even be possible depending on bay depth in the ceiling. Residential filtration systems will be challenged in that large of a space.

Best option is to look at higher cfm fans,  though previous poster is correct that you'll need intake air to make it work well. Watch sound levels of fans to make sure they won't be too loud.

[scap99]

35*20*9= 6300 cuft

An air change every 10 minutes is 630 cfm.

Two fans is just over 300 cfm each.  Look at the Broan L300.

It has an 8" outlet, but you could reduce it to 6" if you had to.

Higher discharge static pressure means less airflow, but if your duct runs aren't long it won't matter much.

Also, as mentioned, makeup air is needed or you'll be robbing it from other areas, like you water heater flue pipe if it has a draft hood connector.  That could mean CO build up in the house....

[Stogieninja]

When you're talking makeup air, do you have to have an equivalent fan? In other words does the exhaust fan and the makeup air fan need to be the same?

[scap99]

55 minutes ago, Stogieninja said:

When you're talking makeup air, do you have to have an equivalent fan? In other words does the exhaust fan and the makeup air fan need to be the same?

Just open a door or window.

Natural abhors a vacuum, so as the fan forces smoky air out, fresh air comes right in the open door/window.

[dominattorney]

1 hour ago, scap99 said:

Just open a door or window.

Natural abhors a vacuum, so as the fan forces smoky air out, fresh air comes right in the open door/window.

That was my solution as well. Cory made some excellent suggestions in a pm. I'm gonna send him am email yomorrow, grab two fans and possibly a rabbit air purifier, slap together a nice fiver for Cory, and call it a long weekend. 

[jfire]

Rabbit airs do not work well. I built a nice system and my Rabit air is only in a corner of the room to “help”
My exhaust duct is 32’ long. “8x12”
My fresh air is 8” round 12’ long.
When I go over 40% on the dial for the 1200 cfm Fan I open the rooms window.
When I smoke alone I adapt a 3” round dryer duct to the ceiling and run it to my seat. At 20% fan operation it works better than any other time. I exhaust the smoke from my mouth towards the dryer duct. Up and out it goes.
If I have friends over I open the window and the fresh air intake. Exhaust is all the way on at 100%


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[PapaDisco]

  Oh man!  What was that contractor thinking??!! Has that man never smoked a cigar?? 

I used to get bathroom fans for bathrooms, and kitchen fans for kitchens.  None of them were ever adequate.  Now, every time I do a project requiring ventilation I go with inline Fantech hardware: http://www.fantech.net/products/fans--accessories/circular-duct-fans/fans-for-circular-ducts-with-ac-motors/

and I go big.  Whatever you think you need, go 2 or 3X.  Many of these Fantech units have a high/low setting, so if you overdo it, you can step it down.  They mount behind the wall/ceiling and this helps to keep things quiet.  Also, big ducts are a must.  A pair of 6" will not do.  Can you retrofit 10 or 12" duals?  You want to move a lot of air and do it quietly.  

It's worth spending too much money to get this right.  A smoking room that has just a hint of cigar 'joie de vivre' is great in any house, but one that smells like a moldy ash tray is grounds for divorce.  Get the smoke ventilation to superior standards and you will guarantee marital bliss, a spouse supportive of your enjoyment, and a bigger cigar budget!  

[HabanosNJGuy]

22 minutes ago, PapaDisco said:

  Oh man!  What was that contractor thinking??!! Has that man never smoked a cigar?? 

I used to get bathroom fans for bathrooms, and kitchen fans for kitchens.  None of them were ever adequate.  Now, every time I do a project requiring ventilation I go with inline Fantech hardware: http://www.fantech.net/products/fans--accessories/circular-duct-fans/fans-for-circular-ducts-with-ac-motors/

and I go big.  Whatever you think you need, go 2 or 3X.  Many of these Fantech units have a high/low setting, so if you overdo it, you can step it down.  They mount behind the wall/ceiling and this helps to keep things quiet.  Also, big ducts are a must.  A pair of 6" will not do.  Can you retrofit 10 or 12" duals?  You want to move a lot of air and do it quietly.  

It's worth spending too much money to get this right.  A smoking room that has just a hint of cigar 'joie de vivre' is great in any house, but one that smells like a moldy ash tray is grounds for divorce.  Get the smoke ventilation to superior standards and you will guarantee marital bliss, a spouse supportive of your enjoyment, and a bigger cigar budget!  

I agree 100%.  I have an in line duct fan for exhaust on a dimmer switch to control air flow.  I have a second duct for inflow of makeup air as I have no windows in my basement office.  I do have a Rabbit air that helps, more for odor than anything else.  It is NOT sufficient on its own.  Get the biggest, most powerful one that will fit. Mine is around 1000 cfm, I usually run it at 2/3 max flow. Don't skimp, it's well worth the investment.  My wife can't smell anything outside my office and she has no tolerance for tobacco smoke.  She will even come into my office 5 minutes after I smoke and doesn't complain about the smell.

Hire a professional, but only one that will do what you want.  I met with many HVAC guys and all but one wanted to sell me something I didn't want.  Most didn't understand what I needed.  The air exchangers are not powerful enough.  I was inspired by this website: http://ryandeyer.com/cigar-room/

I did many of the things he did, tweaked for my room and it works great.

[Fuzz]

A pair of these should be enough to ventilate the room sufficiently....

[Zedman05]

I would steer clear of the Rabbit Air. I built a carbon filtration scrubbed 2 years ago with 10 lbs of activated charcoal in it just for my double garage. There is a 6" centrifugal fan attatched with 500 cfm pulling through it. It doesn't scrub the air like I was hoping.
Stick to air in/ air out. I too live in a cold winter climate, and would warn you that when you are exhausting that air, no matter what amount, you will be bringing in cold winter air. This is why I tried the scrubbing technique. If you are smoking for a while, you now have the issue of where do you bring that air in ? In the basement ? Well now you are mking the basement cold. Just remember you most likely will want some sort of heat introduction, unless you plan on having the house HVAC take up the slack of temp drop. If you do, and it is forced air, now you are moving that smoke around the house.
Just something to think about.

I use the carbon scrubber in the garage, and also a carbon filter on the furnace I installed in there for dedicated heat. I still have to open the door once in a while to clear some of the smoke out as I am more sensitive to it than most.

[CrankYanker]

On 10/7/2017 at 7:38 PM, Corylax18 said:

@dominattorney You're in the Denver area right? I've helped a few buddies build and ventilate their "gardens" over the last few years. For a few hundred bucks and a few hours, we can make that basement feel like a wind tunnel. PM Me.

Let me know if you ever get to the Ohio area. Would love to chat about this

[Squarehead]

I have a heat recovery system in my house as it is energy star build.What it does,it expels stale air to the outside while it brings fresh air in from the outside.When I retire to my mancave to fire up my cigar I turn the unit on Hi.The next morning you can't smell anything.This unit is right attached to the ductwork of the furnace.

[Foulhook]

Agreed on the rabbit air. I have one in my smoking room that is 14x16. I have two exhaust fans at 390cfm each. The exhaust is adequate. The rabbit air is basically a wall decoration now. I run the fans while smoking. When done. I leave one exhaust fan on and then the crucial part is running an ozone generator for 30 minutes on the timer when leaving. Running the one exhaust will keep the ozone smell from leaving the room and dissipates the room after the generator had shut off. 

This has worked for me for quite some time now very well. The main room of the man cave is about 1200sqft. I will add three more exhaust fans this year to the main room near the pool table, bar and big screen. 

I started smoking last year in the main room to watch NHL games on the big screen. I purchased a craftsman utility fan (metal blades). The thing is crazy powerful! As a work around for the time being I put it in a basement window. If I crack a window on the other side of the basement it’s like a hurricane coming in! I can smoke a Churchill and the room never seems to even get Smokey. 

Good luck and let us know how yours turns out. It’s wonderful to be able to smoke inside every night. 

[PapaDisco]

You guys in those cold northern climates ever install heat exchangers on your inlet/exhaust systems?

[dominattorney]

A lot of what I'm seeing here gives me hope that the system that I'm looking to install should be sufficient.  Interesting take on the Rabbit Air, however.  Surprising since it is so highly recommended by Cigar Aficionado....or not surprising actually.  They probably liked the My Father Judge that was so poorly reviewed here over the weekend. 

[Stogiepuffer]

Once you determine your fan size/qty make sure you control them with a variable speed drive or similar. This way you can control the speed of the fans based on the amount of smoke produced. Make sure they are rated for the proper hp of the fans.

 

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[PapaDisco]

3 hours ago, dominattorney said:

A lot of what I'm seeing here gives me hope that the system that I'm looking to install should be sufficient.  Interesting take on the Rabbit Air, however.  Surprising since it is so highly recommended by Cigar Aficionado....or not surprising actually.  They probably liked the My Father Judge that was so poorly reviewed here over the weekend. 

All of the Rabbits that I've sat next to in cigar clubs have been pretty much worthless, in the moment.  They might be of some use after everyone has left, but I've not seen one that can keep up with much.  Large volumes of air make all the difference.

[garbandz]

a tip : install a timer on your system.

set it for 8 to 10 min. after you leave so it can clean out the last bit of smoke.

 

 

[zepp69]

I bought a blue air air cleaner. It doesn't do the trick for me. I have a man cave. I installed a 14" exhaust fan in the ceiling and it works like a charm. I will recondition the air with the air cleaner but I don't use it as a stand alone device. I have an air return in the floor. System is a little noisy but that's what I get for not having them install a system before room was built.

Good luck and cheers!

[jfire]

I’d also like to add I wash my laminate floors, bar top and seats weekly during the winter. (And the walls once a year.) 1200 cigars later and 5 years. It’s been the best thing I’ve ever done to allow me to enjoy the hobby. Last winter it was -12 deg F in February (actual air temp) and it was 68 degrees in the room with the in-line fresh air heater on. And the system set at 20% on the fan eductor.


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