Trump Cuba Policy Announcement


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 209
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

You can hardly blame Cuba for buying arms from NK when you sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia…

History continues to be re-witten on cigar forums! The FDA was given 'specific' authority by congress to 'kill' tobacco. Look who voted for it! Read about Mitch Zeller!!! Saying that 'the FD

Fugu, Thanks for picking up on that nuance. And now for the ugly truth.  I'm 40 years of age. I left while I was still a pup, but have plenty of family affected. My maternal side of the fami

Cuba is not North Korea. China does more bad stuff and sells more illegal arms to dictators in the world, and is North Korea's primary trading partner...... and we can still travel to China anytime we want and we can buy as many things as we want from there. Hell they finance our debt. So let's apply that same mentality to Cuba and not punish the Cuban people and the American people.

Also, the Cuban government is not just the Castros. It has grown well beyond that and has been this way for awhile. It's another socialist government in the world like the ones the US deals with openly without embargoes everyday. They are not some super enemy of the US, nor Dr. Evil smoking a canonazo in his secret tropical lair.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk


  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Smallclub said:

You can hardly blame Cuba for buying arms from NK when you sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia…

... your point is what exactly??? -LOL

Should we switch the topic to arms sales envy? :idea:

Arms sales becoming France’s new El Dorado, but at what cost?

 
150503%20Rafale.jpg © Patrick Baz / AFP | A French navy Rafale fighter jet takes off from the aircraft craft carrier Charles de Gaulle operating in the Gulf on February 25, 2015 

Text by Sam BALL

Latest update : 2015-05-04

France’s booming arms trade has proved one of the few bright spots for the country’s struggling economy. But as President François Hollande heads to Saudi Arabia on Tuesday, will there be a moral and strategic cost to the deals he might bring back?

When Qatar agreed to buy 24 French Rafale fighter jets in a €6.3 billion contract at the end of April, it represented yet another major success for France’s arms industry, coming hot on the heels of further multi-billion euro sales of Rafales to Egypt and India.

The deals have been hailed by Hollande and his government. According to France’s Minister of Defence Jean-Yves Le Drian, in comments made to the Journal du Dimanche newspaper Sunday, the Qatar contract brought the value of the country’s arms exports to more than €15 billion this year so far.

That sum is already more than the €8.06 billion for the whole of 2014, which itself was the highest level seen since 2009 – suggesting a continued upward trajectory for the French arms trade and one that is providing a much-needed salve to the country’s economic woes.

But some of these deals have raised more than a few eyebrows, with anti-arms trade campaignerscritical of France’s willingness to sell weapons to countries with less than stellar human rights records.

These concerns are only set to rise when Hollande heads first to Doha on Monday and then Saudi Arabia's capital of Riyadh the day after, where furthering the recent success of the French arms industry is likely to be one of his top priorities.

Saudi Arabia’s arms spending spree

Saudi Arabia has already proved a lucrative trading partner for French arms manufacturers, most recently in a deal signed in November that saw the kingdom buy $3 billion-worth (€2.7 billion) of French weapons and military equipment to supply the Lebanese army.

The oil-rich country is currently on something of an arms spending spree.

Last year, the Saudis surpassed India to become the world’s biggest arms importer, upping its spending by 54 percent to $6.5 billion (€5.8 billion), according to a report by industry analyst IHS.

France, thanks to some adept diplomatic manoeuvering in recent years, is well placed to take advantage of the Saudi cash cow.

Paris has been an increasingly close ally of Riyadh ever since it was among the most vocal in backing military intervention against Syria’s President Bashar al-Assad, a key ally of Shiite Iran – one of Sunni Saudi Arabia’s main regional rivals.

The strategic alliance has been boosted by France’s tougher stance on a nuclear deal with Iran than the Saudi’s traditional western partner, the US. Furthermore, French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius visited the kingdom in April to show France's support for the Saudi-led military intervention in Yemen.

If Hollande can help secure new arms deals with the Saudis, then he could make the sums involved in this year’s earlier successes look like small change.

He may have to overlook certain moral issues to do so, however.

The kingdom, where the ultra-conservative Wahhabi form of Islam dominates, is one of the world’s most restrictive and repressive states, where public executions are common practise, women are forbidden from obtaining a passport and blasphemers are punished with whippings.

Adding to Middle East instability

But there could also be a strategic downside.

Experts warn that the influx of arms to Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries is worsening tensions in a region already ravaged by conflicts in Syria, Iraq, Libya and Yemen.

"You're seeing political fractures across the region, and at the same time you've got oil, which allows countries to arm themselves, protect themselves and impose their will as to how they think the region should develop,” Ben Moores, author of the IHS report, told AP in March.

France, of course, is not alone in striking lucrative arms deals in the region. The US remains the biggest arms exporter to the Middle East, with $8.4 billion (€7.5 billion) worth of weapon sales in 2014, while the UK and Germany are also major players.

At the same time, Russia, possibly incentivised by the influx of weapons from Western states, appears to be upping support for its main ally in the region – Iran – as evidenced by its decision in April to go ahead with its controversial delivery of S-300 anti-aircraft missiles.

This, analyst Tobias Borck of the Royal United Services Institute told the UK’s Guardian newspaper last month, is triggering a dangerous arms race, one that could spill over into bloodshed at any moment.

“[The] Saudi-led military operations in Yemen [are] the latest manifestation of Arab interventionism, a trend that has been gaining momentum in the Middle East since the uprisings of the Arab spring,” he said. “Middle Eastern countries appear to be increasingly willing to use their armed forces to protect and pursue their interests in crisis zones across the region.”

Such concerns, though, are unlikely to lessen Hollande’s pursuit of more Saudi investment in French arms.

According to the French Defence Ministry, the arms deals struck in 2015 alone have created close to 30,000 new jobs for the French economy.

At a time when unemployment is at a record high – with 3.51 million out of work at last count – those sorts of figures will be difficult for the French president to ignore.

Date created : 2015-05-03

  •  
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ninja said:


Also, the Cuban government is not just the Castros. It has grown well beyond that and has been this way for awhile. It's another socialist government in the world like the ones the US deals with openly without embargoes everyday. They are not some super enemy of the US, nor Dr. Evil smoking a canonazo in his secret tropical lair.


 

 

From my little experience of 15 years visiting Cuba and hoping for change : The Cuban government is ONLY a Castro regime ... it is a royal family owning the island through family, military and oppression.
To compare it with "another socialist gvt. in the world" is to insult socialist or social-democrat gvts.elected by democratic means.
FYI : Cuba is still ruled by its single and only party, the Communist Party of Cuba.
 

38 minutes ago, dgixxer252525 said:

I'm not overly political but I can tell you that my family in Cuba has seen ZERO benefit from the easing of tensions. If money is being made by someone, it sure isn't your typical Cuban. 

I can only confirm that the easing has only brought more problems for everyday Cubans (food & transport is even scarcer and more expensive ) and not many benefits.
All economic sectors dealing with tourism have been taken over by the military - see the latest take-over of Habaguanex running old Havana by Gaviota ...

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

... your point is what exactly??? -LOL

Should we switch the topic to arms sales envy? :idea:

Arms sales becoming France’s new El Dorado, but at what cost?

 

150503%20Rafale.jpg © Patrick Baz / AFP | A French navy Rafale fighter jet takes off from the aircraft craft carrier Charles de Gaulle operating in the Gulf on February 25, 2015 

Text by Sam BALL

Latest update : 2015-05-04

France’s booming arms trade has proved one of the few bright spots for the country’s struggling economy. But as President François Hollande heads to Saudi Arabia on Tuesday, will there be a moral and strategic cost to the deals he might bring back?

When Qatar agreed to buy 24 French Rafale fighter jets in a €6.3 billion contract at the end of April, it represented yet another major success for France’s arms industry, coming hot on the heels of further multi-billion euro sales of Rafales to Egypt and India.

The deals have been hailed by Hollande and his government. According to France’s Minister of Defence Jean-Yves Le Drian, in comments made to the Journal du Dimanche newspaper Sunday, the Qatar contract brought the value of the country’s arms exports to more than €15 billion this year so far.

That sum is already more than the €8.06 billion for the whole of 2014, which itself was the highest level seen since 2009 – suggesting a continued upward trajectory for the French arms trade and one that is providing a much-needed salve to the country’s economic woes.

But some of these deals have raised more than a few eyebrows, with anti-arms trade campaignerscritical of France’s willingness to sell weapons to countries with less than stellar human rights records.

These concerns are only set to rise when Hollande heads first to Doha on Monday and then Saudi Arabia's capital of Riyadh the day after, where furthering the recent success of the French arms industry is likely to be one of his top priorities.

Saudi Arabia’s arms spending spree

Saudi Arabia has already proved a lucrative trading partner for French arms manufacturers, most recently in a deal signed in November that saw the kingdom buy $3 billion-worth (€2.7 billion) of French weapons and military equipment to supply the Lebanese army.

The oil-rich country is currently on something of an arms spending spree.

Last year, the Saudis surpassed India to become the world’s biggest arms importer, upping its spending by 54 percent to $6.5 billion (€5.8 billion), according to a report by industry analyst IHS.

France, thanks to some adept diplomatic manoeuvering in recent years, is well placed to take advantage of the Saudi cash cow.

Paris has been an increasingly close ally of Riyadh ever since it was among the most vocal in backing military intervention against Syria’s President Bashar al-Assad, a key ally of Shiite Iran – one of Sunni Saudi Arabia’s main regional rivals.

The strategic alliance has been boosted by France’s tougher stance on a nuclear deal with Iran than the Saudi’s traditional western partner, the US. Furthermore, French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius visited the kingdom in April to show France's support for the Saudi-led military intervention in Yemen.

If Hollande can help secure new arms deals with the Saudis, then he could make the sums involved in this year’s earlier successes look like small change.

He may have to overlook certain moral issues to do so, however.

The kingdom, where the ultra-conservative Wahhabi form of Islam dominates, is one of the world’s most restrictive and repressive states, where public executions are common practise, women are forbidden from obtaining a passport and blasphemers are punished with whippings.

Adding to Middle East instability

But there could also be a strategic downside.

Experts warn that the influx of arms to Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries is worsening tensions in a region already ravaged by conflicts in Syria, Iraq, Libya and Yemen.

"You're seeing political fractures across the region, and at the same time you've got oil, which allows countries to arm themselves, protect themselves and impose their will as to how they think the region should develop,” Ben Moores, author of the IHS report, told AP in March.

France, of course, is not alone in striking lucrative arms deals in the region. The US remains the biggest arms exporter to the Middle East, with $8.4 billion (€7.5 billion) worth of weapon sales in 2014, while the UK and Germany are also major players.

At the same time, Russia, possibly incentivised by the influx of weapons from Western states, appears to be upping support for its main ally in the region – Iran – as evidenced by its decision in April to go ahead with its controversial delivery of S-300 anti-aircraft missiles.

This, analyst Tobias Borck of the Royal United Services Institute told the UK’s Guardian newspaper last month, is triggering a dangerous arms race, one that could spill over into bloodshed at any moment.

“[The] Saudi-led military operations in Yemen [are] the latest manifestation of Arab interventionism, a trend that has been gaining momentum in the Middle East since the uprisings of the Arab spring,” he said. “Middle Eastern countries appear to be increasingly willing to use their armed forces to protect and pursue their interests in crisis zones across the region.”

Such concerns, though, are unlikely to lessen Hollande’s pursuit of more Saudi investment in French arms.

According to the French Defence Ministry, the arms deals struck in 2015 alone have created close to 30,000 new jobs for the French economy.

At a time when unemployment is at a record high – with 3.51 million out of work at last count – those sorts of figures will be difficult for the French president to ignore.

Date created : 2015-05-03

  •  

That france does so as well, doesnt change the fact that US does - I guess you can say that the cuban trade ethics is approaching an international normal ?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Troels said:

That france does so as well, doesnt change the fact that US does - I guess you can say that the cuban trade ethics is approaching an international normal ?

I can't see any ethics in politics.  You don't need an investigative spotlight to find the gaping holes in global sanctimonious arguments, they don't stand up to the weak diffused light of a candle.

It is amusing watching people draping their respective flags around their shoulders and point to the fault of others.  Throw a little bit of that candle light your way and prepare to wince at what you will find. 

Maybe we deserve these idiots. 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can only confirm that the easing has only brought more problems for everyday Cubans (food & transport is even scarcer and more expensive ) and not many benefits.
All economic sectors dealing with tourism have been taken over by the military - see the latest take-over of Habaguanex running old Havana by Gaviota ...


Speaking from my little experience of 14 years of going to Cuba and existing well outside the tourist world, I can only say that we must agree to disagree on this issue. The people and others in the government have been thinking well outside that of just Castro. I was actuallly talk about just that with friends in San Luis after I went to the Labor Day parade in Pinar City this year. There have been alot that's changed over that last 30 years. Heck even in the Castro family you have Mariela Castro and what she's been doing. I have heard she was the first person to cast a no vote in Parliament around her LGBT movement. (But to be fair she was probably the only one that could do that because of her family ties) Things have been getting done without micro involvement from Fidel for awhile. So yea, it's growing into more.

If what you say is true, then after Raul dies there would be a power struggle and a bit of chaos like after many other dictators die. Don't think is going to happen. They have been planning for a Castro death/exit for years now. Castro died....nothing major contrary to most folks thoughts. Heck Raul will step down soon. No Castro in charge. Will he run things behind the scenes...maybe. Will he have a political voice and some power...definately. But after he dies, do we all think the government will throw up there hands and say, "well damn that was fun but now it's all over....I'm going home."???

And if you guys think that the tourism spike has not help some of the regular cubans, you guys really need to talk to more cubans.

And LESS transportation opportunities for cubans than 5 years ago???....Ahhh heck no.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me, this is about whether to politically capitalize in the short term (keeping the embargo in place while posturing with Cuban expats, and draping the flag around your shoulders) or the long term (easing/eliminating the embargo) by letting the consequences of capitalism and It's associated freedoms seep into Cuba, indirect and slow though it may be.

Interestingly, politicians as diverse as President Obama and Senator Rand Paul favor the latter approach -- and I believe they tend to be longer-term thinkers, and less splashy politicians.  People whose minds are clouded with recency bias, and political expediency in the state of Florida, favor the former.

*shrug* Whatever happens, this too shall pass.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

Governments  are but dens of duplicity and hypocrisy. All of them. 

 

Big BUT here...We get what we deserve in democracy's who we elect. Get involved elect who represent your views. I know nowadays it's the billionaires club  who gets elected, just saying...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look, the Obama deal with Cuba basically gave them the henhouse and gave us nothing in return. It was a bogus deal. Were any political prisoners released from Cuba? No. Have any human rights policies under Castro changed? No. Total joke, IMO. I say reverse all Obama's policy. Nuff said

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is another problem. Now I am NOT saying the Cuban government doesn't have political rights violations. They do. But the numbers that are being reported to the US appear to may be incorrect. Muddied waters always makes for a nasty swim.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Troels said:

That france does so as well, doesnt change the fact that US does -

Exactly, but it doesn't prevent some posters to post articles, links etc. on sales of french arms and technology, as if I wasn't aware :rolleyes:. “Na na na na, you did it first” level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm hearing rumours that one of the changes to be announced is restricting US residents, including Cuban-Americans, to one Cuba-visit per year.

Only rumours, but I can't see him rolling back all the changes over the last two years. Many US businesses have a lot of money at stake.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would normally agree Ryan, but that Trump is a wiley mo'fo. :)

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Nekhyludov
1 hour ago, NYgarman said:

Look, the Obama deal with Cuba basically gave them the henhouse and gave us nothing in return. It was a bogus deal. Were any political prisoners released from Cuba? No. Have any human rights policies under Castro changed? No. Total joke, IMO. I say reverse all Obama's policy. Nuff said

I'm not sure I understand the view that every policy that involves another entity is a "deal." Makes it sound as though everything is a transactional quid pro quo. That's a very narrow prism through which to develop often complex arrangements, and doesn't allow for any outcomes that aren't easily tallied on some imaginary scorecard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, PigFish said:

Like it or not Ken, I see 'sides.' I see both good and evil, better or worse, freedom and tyranny. One state is better than the other.

The allies and axis were different! There is a difference of opportunity, freedom, fairness, kindness, goodness, Godliness (dare I say it in a reply to you!!! -LOL) it an Constitutional Republic state verses a Marxist state. At least there is in mine. Go out in the street of Cuba and burn one of their flags and you will find out the difference in a hurry.

NorKo threatens (states that it can actually attack) closer to you than me. Are you saying that you are indifferent to such a government?

I do see sides Ken. I see the Australian government as different from my own as well, but not as inherently evil (just as example).

I have to wonder, if Round Kim Fat were stating daily that he is going to attack Australia, would think a little differently about Cuba trading with her?

Now the America haters will likely emerge and mention slavery in the Americas, or the American Indian... blah, blah blah... I don't expect that some people will ever get that there are evil people in the world. They blame things... economy, education, natural resources, trade... and yet never recognize that a country may have all or none of that, yet choose a path that fosters more liberty than less liberty or vise versa. There are two sides to everything and any argument can be supported if one decides to take up the flag.

Ken, these people hate our (collective) guts. I hear holy men of other countries calling us the big Satan. I see videos of the Norks and the ChiComs showing cities being destroyed by their nuclear weapons... My cities! I don't see them nuking Sydney... (in their propaganda videos) but you guys are not exempt.

Man, our kids are not shown that stuff in school. We are not teaching kids here to want to nuke the NorKo's! Frankly most in my country are too damn dumbed down and propagandized to fear and loathe communism. One party in our country almost put one up for president.

Do you know how many people global communism/socialism has killed? They even hate each other and their different factions. These guys are killing each other as fast as they kill proponents of freedom.

Would it have been different Ken? Maybe! Perhaps all of South American, and Asia would have been different too...! Frankly, I don't see it as an argument, not a sensible one anyway. So I have to ask, other than playing a 'devils' advocate position, why would one even bring it up, a rational for trading with Cuba, except to diffuse responsibility from such a state? This is how I view your specific argument.

What did I expect from Cuba? I expect them to stand up for NorKo just like they did for Venezuela. I expect them to put resources in, just like they did in Angola. I expect them to starve and deprive their own people so that they can supply arms to further global communism. If you feed communists, they don't feed their own at home, they take the wealth savings and attempt to spur communism somewhere else on the globe. Now what good does that do?

From your argument Ken, and I know that you like to make specific arguments, I only see a vailed approach to be a passive and show understanding of a communist state. I have no such understanding. I will given them no quarter.

I am going to state this again, just so it does not get skimmed over. You and I have had many debates, and frankly we look at things differently. As I see you and your style, you enjoy discussing one small sliver of a topic. It is an observation, not a criticism. Cuban trade was a part of the article, I get it, I therefore brought it up! But that is not my point. My point is that communists support other communists regardless of 'how nice' you play with them. They don't feed their own people. People to communist are chattel property of the state. They are 'owned' already! Why feed your own, when you can own more? Sorry mate, this is how communists think.

What you choose to debate from the menu is not a criticism, nor a criticism of you. But we are talking across each other here yet again. In my mind, one cannot rationalize (lets say debate) something such as communism on a single merit (if one wants to attribute merits to the system). I believe you like to do this... I don't!

This then is not what do I expect from Cuba becasue my country is so bad to her, but what Cuba does do with the aid others give it? I expect them to neglect their own people and raise hell elsewhere on the planet promoting communism with the resources. It is what communists do! It is what Cuba does and has done!

This then is not a 'trading partner' debate, even though this is what I see you commenting on. This is about one group of murdering thugs helping another group of murdering thugs do what it can to do as much damage to global freedom as it can.

You know, Cuba gets most of its food and medicine from the US...? And what good has it done? These people still hate our guts (the government does) because of what we represent. Being better to Cuba will not make the Cuban government like us, or less likely to take the resources to other parts of the globe to promote other communist revolutions! What is does is allow them to spread out the tentacles (as they have done in the past) to infect other countries with communism. While their own people have so little, they buy arms, and send them and military aid to other emerging communists. They have a record of doing this.

Being nice to them Ken... in my book is akin to breeding rabid dogs.

Sorry mate. Trade has consequences. And I don't want to feed a small oligarchy of madmen so that they can stir up trouble in another part of the world though another small oligarchy of madmen!

Lastly. This has been a detailed post where I have attempted to bring the topic back to my own position. I hope it was not taken personally. Not my intent... We are simply discussing micro verses a macro view of trade with Cuba.

Would things be different? Well, perhaps even greater portions of the world would now be controlled by communist thugs. As I said, there is more than one way to view events. So I ask you then. If I consider your view, will you consider mine. Will you put a number on the dead that may have resulted from the Cuban communists feeding other communists in other counties with the money we sent?

I think many people have a very shallow view of what communists do and why. Does this make US foreign policy 'right' in all cases? Certainly not... But that is not my point in posting. If one wants to attack US foreign policy bring it up and go ahead and chat about it all you want. In my mind, fighting global communism is good foreign policy.

Yes, along with smoking cigars from Cuba, I am typing on a keyboard likely made in China! There, I said it before someone else did...! -LOL

Cheers mate, enjoy a nice cigar (take one of Robs) and pretend I gave it to you! Mine are likely to skinny and small for you anyway!

-Ray

ray, i now know you do take no notice of me - i have railed against the size of cigars for years, in accordance with exactly your thoughts!

i will try and try and respond when i get a chance later - way too much to make a brief note and i have a few deadlines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

ray, i now know you do take no notice of me - i have railed against the size of cigars for years, in accordance with exactly your thoughts!

i will try and try and respond when i get a chance later - way too much to make a brief note and i have a few deadlines.

... man the other day you were calling PC's nails or cigarettes or something! Was I wrong? -LOL

Maybe I lost the message due to your accent!!! -LOL

-R

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

Community Software by Invision Power Services, Inc.