Help me write a brief for a Mycologist.

[El Presidente]

One of our goals for 2017 is to put some facts to the mold/plume/bloom/ debate. 

No better time than to start now 

Here are my thoughts as to how the process will pan out. 

January:    write the brief 

February:   Engage a Mycologist/Mycologist doing post grad. 

March:       Study begins. 

June (or prior) findings. 

* I will be collecting and setting aside the different types of Mouldy cigars I see between now and then. I may call on you for a few examples of cigars with plume on them...as I think they are ...well...rare 

 

Now science is not my forte (no shit Sherlock I hear you say ).....so I am going to need a hand writing a proper brief to be tabled. 

What is the objective/ what is the scope etc etc. 

Those in the medical/scientific community may be able to help. It would be much appreciated. 

That doesn't stop anyone posting here as to where they would like the torch to be shone in this murky... mouldy.... world.

I will fund the study if you fine people can do some of the hard yards on providing input from which we will put together the brief. 

let me know your thoughts

Cheers

Rob

 

 

 

[Guest photorob]

This is awesome. I am eager to read all about it.

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

[El Presidente]

It goes against my better judgement....I normally like to know the outcome before commissioning the report 

[JohnS]

20 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

* I will be collecting and setting aside the different types of Mouldy cigars I see between now and then. I may call on you for a few examples of cigars with plume on them...as I think they are ...well...rare 

Sure, I don't mind getting the ball rolling on this. I was thinking this week, on this topic, how popular the 2011 H.Upmann Connoisseur No.1 boxes were last year put up on 24:24 which had a smattering of white 'dust' on them. They consistently sold out quickly and many of us commented (mainly in the Daily Smoke thread) how good they were. Personally, I didn't pick up a box, but I have enjoyed the 2012 and 2013 Cohiba Piramides Extra tubos that were similarly put up on 24:24 sales in the latter part of 2016. One or two of these had minor white 'dust' on them but I can testify that these have all been sensational (after all, it's one of my very favourite cigars) and I don't think I've had a bad one yet (nor an average one for that matter!). 

[archosaur]

this is brilliant!

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[polarbear]

Dear Boffin in Training

I wish to engage your skills and knowledge in an effort to satisfy the questions and comments found in below thread:

Please be aware, this quest will be dark and full of monsters
You may encounter many mistruths in your search for definitive facts
The job will entail many late nights and weekends spent toiling away in your search for answers
It will not be well funded but your name will go down in the history book as the one who silence many heated debates over the last decade
 

All samples provided will need to be returned prior to completion of the report

Please forward your resume and detailed report of your current qualifications and skills to below address
[email protected]

I look forward to working with you

 

 

[Jeremy Festa]

Not so sure on this mate. 

My understanding, is plume is not bloom. Plume is not mold. But bloom is mold. 

So a mycologist will help with giving you the knowledge of the various molds that develop, on the surface and within. But may not enlighten us further on plume. They may be able to confirm and dispel a few queries. But it may be worth getting a botanist involved? 

What I gather is; plume, however rare or mythical, is a result of the oils within the tobacco repelling water content, as oils are hydrophobic. Any moisture repelled, through membranes or tight spaces, or due to evaporation, can cause the salt to be drawn out of the moisture. As the water/moisture leaves the surface of the tobacco, if stored in ideal conditions, the cigar can develop a white, dusty and/or crystalline appearance. I have seen it a couple of times. Everyone may be aware that they (cigars with plume) are traditionally lauded cigars. I believe this to be due to the lower moisture content, as a result of, possibly, a higher oil content. Therefore, you experience a more intense flavour. Like the reduction of a sauce/jus etc. 

I may be wrong, definitively.

But have little doubt in the reasoning. 

 

[polarbear]

Seriously, though

I'm looking forward to seeing where this leads

[Jeremy Festa]

Sorry. Brief for mycologist.

Set a range of temps and humidity levels for storage, over 1 month, to see which has the biggest impact in creating the optimal condition for growth of mold, and which types. 

i.e. Is temperature more important to mold? is humidity more important to mold? What is/are the most ideal conditions for mold to grow on cigars? What type of molds are present?

Set the uniform cigar size.

However, is mold more prevalent in larger ring gauges, due to a greater surface area? etc

Would like to know which cigars rolled and/or packed in which months have more mold? etc 

 

 

[El Presidente]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy Festa said:

Not so sure on this mate. 

My understanding, is plume is not bloom. Plume is not mold. But bloom is mold. 

So a mycologist will help with giving you the knowledge of the various molds that develop, on the surface and within. But may not enlighten us further on plume. They may be able to confirm and dispel a few queries. But it may be worth getting a botanist involved? 

What I gather is; plume, however rare or mythical, is a result of the oils within the tobacco repelling water content, as oils are hydrophobic. Any moisture repelled, through membranes or tight spaces, or due to evaporation, can cause the salt to be drawn out of the moisture. As the water/moisture leaves the surface of the tobacco, if stored in ideal conditions, the cigar can develop a white, dusty and/or crystalline appearance. I have seen it a couple of times. Everyone may be aware that they (cigars with plume) are traditionally lauded cigars. I believe this to be due to the lower moisture content, as a result of, possibly, a higher oil content. Therefore, you experience a more intense flavour. Like the reduction of a sauce/jus etc. 

I may be wrong, definitively.

But have little doubt in the reasoning. 

 

step one....whatever is on the wrapper.......confirm if a mould....and identify it  (white/blue/green....fuchsia) + a big long name. 

If not a mould ....and he/she cannot identify.....then off to the next step in a biologist or whoever they recommend. 

 

[Fuzz]

12 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

 

If not a mould ....and he/she cannot identify.....then off to the next step in a biologist or whoever they recommend. 

 

If you find a new mould, you can name it after yourself!

White Mould -  Sclerotinia Robonium Abstergeo

Green/Black Mould - Stachybotrys Robonium Abiciendi

[JohnS]

Just now, Fuzz said:

If you find a new mould, you can name it after yourself!

White Mould -  Sclerotinia Robonium Abstergeo

Green/Black Mould - Stachybotrys Robonium Abiciendi

[El Presidente]

5 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

If you find a new mould, you can name it after yourself!

White Mould -  Sclerotinia Robonium Abstergeo

Green/Black Mould - Stachybotrys Robonium Abiciendi

My dumb question is that they come looking in many different forms from those cute little white circles to the small specs of dust to the big growths resembling ear buds.  All white but all the same mould?  

I have no idea but would like to find out. 

 

[Smallclub]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Festa said:

Not so sure on this mate. 

My understanding, is plume is not bloom. Plume is not mold. But bloom is mold.

Exactly.

[Warren]

I'm sure that whoever you choose for the task, they're credentials will be impeccable.

[Drguano]

You might want to consider what role gravity might play and propose an experiment to NASA to study the the growth of plume in a microgravity environment. 

[Warren]

22 minutes ago, Drguano said:

You might want to consider what role gravity might play and propose an experiment to NASA to study the the growth of plume in a microgravity environment. 

It's already been done.

[Pixa]

The brief should be quite simple to culture/pcr the sample mould and identify. Genuine plume I think will prove a lot more difficult to identify the substance but gas mass spectrometry should at least identify the substance chemical make up. So many possibilities and combinations which could cause it though. I used to have some dip 3 with plume but smoked them lol. Will look through my stash see if I have any samples I can contribute

[BuzzArd]

11 hours ago, El Presidente said:

One of our goals for 2017 is to put some facts to the mold/plume/bloom/ debate. 

No better time than to start now 

Here are my thoughts as to how the process will pan out. 

January:    write the brief 

February:   Engage a Mycologist/Mycologist doing post grad. 

March:       Study begins. 

June (or prior) findings. 

* I will be collecting and setting aside the different types of Mouldy cigars I see between now and then. I may call on you for a few examples of cigars with plume on them...as I think they are ...well...rare 

 

Now science is not my forte (no shit Sherlock I hear you say ).....so I am going to need a hand writing a proper brief to be tabled. 

What is the objective/ what is the scope etc etc. 

Those in the medical/scientific community may be able to help. It would be much appreciated. 

That doesn't stop anyone posting here as to where they would like the torch to be shone in this murky... mouldy.... world.

I will fund the study if you fine people can do some of the hard yards on providing input from which we will put together the brief. 

let me know your thoughts

Cheers

Rob

 

 

 

I'll contribute some "plume" pictures if you like. Have a nice VSG that fairly glistens.   Also, have had several Opus that came out of tins that had  ample plume coverage.

Hell, if you need 'em I'll send 'em to you.  

[Fugu]

14 hours ago, Jeremy Festa said:

Not so sure on this mate. 

My understanding, is plume is not bloom. Plume is not mold. But bloom is mold. 

So a mycologist will help with giving you the knowledge of the various molds that develop, on the surface and within. But may not enlighten us further on plume. They may be able to confirm and dispel a few queries. But it may be worth getting a botanist involved? 

What I gather is; plume, however rare or mythical, is a result of the oils within the tobacco repelling water content, as oils are hydrophobic. Any moisture repelled, through membranes or tight spaces, or due to evaporation, can cause the salt to be drawn out of the moisture. As the water/moisture leaves the surface of the tobacco, if stored in ideal conditions, the cigar can develop a white, dusty and/or crystalline appearance. I have seen it a couple of times. Everyone may be aware that they (cigars with plume) are traditionally lauded cigars. I believe this to be due to the lower moisture content, as a result of, possibly, a higher oil content. Therefore, you experience a more intense flavour. Like the reduction of a sauce/jus etc. 

I may be wrong, definitively.

But have little doubt in the reasoning. 

 

Way too much preconception and interpretation already!

14 hours ago, El Presidente said:

step one....whatever is on the wrapper.......confirm if a mould....and identify it  (white/blue/green....fuchsia) + a big long name. 

If not a mould ....and he/she cannot identify.....then off to the next step in a biologist or whoever they recommend.

I'd second this.

1. step:

Microbiologist needed with specialization in mycology (micromycetes) and perhaps / ideally in unit with molecular biology.
Tasks - a) Macroscopic assessment - presence of cells/mycelium/sporangia/conidiophores vs. non-organismic matter? Perhaps biochemical/immunological identific. tests, too (or what else lab has to offer). b ) Isolation and identification of organisms to the lowest taxonomic level possible, i.e. genus --> species and perhaps even --> strain.

2. step

Everything else which is of non-organismic nature ("bloom") - off it goes to the next specialist, which should be an analytical chemist.
Tasks - Identification of the chemical nature of found substances and relating it to the expressed form and structure.

 

Best would surely be to have an institution where those specialists collaborate interdisciplinary. I guess such would have to be looked for in the 'Toxicological' or 'Food and Drug' or 'Botanical-Pharmaceutical' and/or 'Biotechnological' or even 'Tobacco' related research institutes and departments. I guess best chances to find the right group of specialists would be somewhere in the toxicological and pharmaceutical sector. I think some thorough web-search should come at first in order to return some scientific publications in that field or as close as possible to that field.

Then, the tasks should be defined as precisely as possible, in order to clarify a) scope, effort and necessary time for such an analysis (study?). And b ) whether it could probably be done by or with the help of a masters student or a postgraduate. Is it possible to be done within the normal insitute's research routine, do they provide the necessary expertise? Does it thematically fit in? What will be the costs involved (will donating a new computer do)? Can costs be shared or reduced when results will be utilized and published by the participating entities? Or will it have to be carried out as a plain contract task, which then has to be fully paid for? Can it perhaps alternatively also be done by a normal accredited material-and-environmental-analysis lab?

FOH-task as to the sticks to be analysed: Provenance and history of sticks/boxes with regard to storage conditions should be known as precisely as possible and be possible to be traced back to time of first purchase. Forms of structures to be closely recorded (photos, descriptions etc.), noted and categorized.

Will be quite important to find the right people, who are experienced with such kind of stuff, and who know what they are doing. Otherwise it's easy to snafu results.

E.g. it is quite conceivable that there will be a mixture of substances, i.e. forms of bloom and mould forming simultaneously on the cigar's surface. Such a mix / compound will need to undergo a differentiated analysis. Relative importance of both, which is which? Also, e.g. bringing a few inactive fungal spores sitting on a bit of cigar surface to growth in culture may lead to completely erroneous results.... Tricky thing also is a particular substrate specifity of species. Fungal species that are found growing on cigars will be xerophilic, i.e. living on "dry" matter. They won't be brought into culture in the lab on the wrong substrate and/or would be quickly overgrown by other species whose spores will also be found on cigars, but which are actually irrelevant as they won't grow there. Plain genetic testing (DNA analysis) on the other hand might also bring in biases with regard to true total abundances, if sample preparation will not be carried out adequately.

So, it will be crucial to find the right lab and to get the right specialists engaged in order to get to meaningful results.

 

[Smallclub]

Why not trying to contact this famous institution: http://www.iitabaco.co.cu/

[Jeremy Festa]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

Way too much preconception and interpretation already!

LOL!!! Rubbish. It is the perfect amount at the perfect time. 

With zero offence, a touch of doubt, but a little confidence.

In saying that, let's not overcomplicate things. Have a control. And identify molds.

 

[El Presidente]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

 

So, it will be crucial to find the right lab and to get the right specialists engaged in order to get to meaningful results.

 

I appreciate the input 

 

Whatever done will be more meaningful than guys on a keyboard or in front of a camera sprouting spurious subjective opinion. 

 

[Drguano]

10 hours ago, Warren said:

It's already been done.

That's mold, not plume!

[garbandz]

I have always seen Plume and Bloom used interchangeably, with the bad stuff called mold.

If you can contact your student and find out which growing medium to use, he can make it and sterilize it so you can grow a proper culture,trying different temps to establish the best for growth, and you can retain the cigars for further study, as in does the mold come back, and if so under what conditions.

Also you can determine if there is any natural fungicide you can treat a cigar with to remove mold and prevent it coming back, or to clean a humidor to remove the mold. 

Possibly UV or other light sources may be the way to kill the mold.

The Plume side will be interesting,as it is a natural occurrence and requires ideal conditions to occur.

possibly some older,damaged cigars could be donated to study,since it would be nice to learn if it is a wrapper-only phenomenon,or does the binder and filler play a part.