Raul a no show at the airport to meet Obama.

[Guest photorob]

a picture is worth 1000 words, no matter where you stand

[Fuzz]

The short man at the back just shouted out China for some reason

I did not!

[Fuzz]

I guess some comments came across pretty one sided. No mention of ICMs... the world was closest its ever been to nuclear war. Thank god we had Kennedy...

There is some credible analysis that Kennedy brought it upon himself. If your neighbour was constantly plotting your death/downfall, would you not want to protect yourself with the biggest stick you could find?

[BonVivant]

I heard that Raul Castro was in charge of customs duty yesterday and was checking, letting through and carrying Obama's luggage

[Ken Gargett]

Well Ken your views may change when a country 90 miles away requests your biggest adversary at the time to deploy dozens of ICBM's and point them directly at you.. At least the US is trying to restore relations, ask Turkey and Russia how their relationship is going? I'm an American and our **** stinks just like everyone else's. I'm not saying the US is right but come on man it's not like we are talking about spilt milk here, as you said this is still a very sensitive discussion.

The blame should be on Communism and the Castro regime not the US.. We never have and never will support any Communist party and for good reason.

first, to the suggestion of america bashing (specifically mentioned in another post), of all individuals you can point to who are not american citizens, i'd reckon i am fairly high on the list of those who do not indulge in 'america bashing'. as i have said elsewhere on this forum, i have lived there, loved the place, have a heap of american friends, very very nearly ended up there for good. that does not mean i am in agreement with everything about the place and every policy, just as i am far from 'in agreement' with everything about australia. both places have done/do some monumentally stupid and wrong acts but this is hardly the place to discuss those. to those who wish to claim 'bashing' simply because someone doesn't agree with them, grow up. if you have decent and reasoned arguments, most of us will happily listen to them and consider them. simply crying bashing merely suggests that the person claiming it does not have any valid arguments.

as for the suggestion of changing views because of deployment of missiles, hang on a bit. we are hardly arguing about the world situation well over fifty years ago. we are talking about a longlasting inequity that should have been rectified a very long time ago.

your suggestion that the embargo is because of the missile crisis is completely wrong (and perhaps best to leave a discussion of the rights and wrongs of wanting missiles, given that there had already been one failed attempt at invasion, to another day, but please don't give me the interests of the cuban people as an argument when the states was propping up the previous corrupt and cruel regime because it suited their interests). it is historically false. the embargo was imposed in october 1960, three years before the crisis so it could not possibly have had anything to do with it. it was imposed because cuba nationalised the american oil refineries in the country. that was in retaliation for the US cancelling the sugar imports and refusing to sell oil to cuba. obviously this is a simplistic account but there were rights and wrongs on both sides.

that does not excuse the US maintaining the embargo for decades beyond when it might have had any useful impact. it was/is petty in the extreme and hardly worthy of a country that sees itself as an example to the world (i don't say that critically or sarcastically in any way; rather as the leading superpower, it should be and much of the rest of the world wishes it were so).

anyone who has visited cuba in the last couple of decades just giggles at any suggestions that this tiny tropical island could be a threat to the greatest military power the world has ever seen. as rob says, they could not make lemonade in a lemonade stand. this isn't david and goliath. it is a blind puppy against an angry thor.

as for being the most giving country, the latest figures i found (there may be more up-to-date but i don't have the time), ranks the states 15th in terms of international aid per capita (in case of any suggestion of further america bashing, these came from princeton university), behind canada and ahead of us.

[zeedubbya]

a picture is worth 1000 words, no matter where you stand

This is an extremely fascinating picture I think. Just a fun fact from the fountain of useless knowledge. It cost $206,337 per hour to operate Air Force One in 2015......

[mygar]

first, to the suggestion of america bashing (specifically mentioned in another post), of all individuals you can point to who are not american citizens, i'd reckon i am fairly high on the list of those who do not indulge in 'america bashing'. as i have said elsewhere on this forum, i have lived there, loved the place, have a heap of american friends, very very nearly ended up there for good. that does not mean i am in agreement with everything about the place and every policy, just as i am far from 'in agreement' with everything about australia. both places have done/do some monumentally stupid and wrong acts but this is hardly the place to discuss those. to those who wish to claim 'bashing' simply because someone doesn't agree with them, grow up. if you have decent and reasoned arguments, most of us will happily listen to them and consider them. simply crying bashing merely suggests that the person claiming it does not have any valid arguments.

as for the suggestion of changing views because of deployment of missiles, hang on a bit. we are hardly arguing about the world situation well over fifty years ago. we are talking about a longlasting inequity that should have been rectified a very long time ago.

your suggestion that the embargo is because of the missile crisis is completely wrong (and perhaps best to leave a discussion of the rights and wrongs of wanting missiles, given that there had already been one failed attempt at invasion, to another day, but please don't give me the interests of the cuban people as an argument when the states was propping up the previous corrupt and cruel regime because it suited their interests). it is historically false. the embargo was imposed in october 1960, three years before the crisis so it could not possibly have had anything to do with it. it was imposed because cuba nationalised the american oil refineries in the country. that was in retaliation for the US cancelling the sugar imports and refusing to sell oil to cuba. obviously this is a simplistic account but there were rights and wrongs on both sides.

that does not excuse the US maintaining the embargo for decades beyond when it might have had any useful impact. it was/is petty in the extreme and hardly worthy of a country that sees itself as an example to the world (i don't say that critically or sarcastically in any way; rather as the leading superpower, it should be and much of the rest of the world wishes it were so).

anyone who has visited cuba in the last couple of decades just giggles at any suggestions that this tiny tropical island could be a threat to the greatest military power the world has ever seen. as rob says, they could not make lemonade in a lemonade stand. this isn't david and goliath. it is a blind puppy against an angry thor.

as for being the most giving country, the latest figures i found (there may be more up-to-date but i don't have the time), ranks the states 15th in terms of international aid per capita (in case of any suggestion of further america bashing, these came from princeton university), behind canada and ahead of us.

You win... moving on ...

[Hunter1974]

a picture is worth 1000 words, no matter where you stand

Here is an idea let them trade their old cars for new ones ! collectors would die to have them!!! ok just trying to bring some cool to all the heat ! I can speak for stogieluvers Character though . Rich is an outstanding guy and would never intentionally stir **** unless its about college football !

[El Presidente]

Here is an idea let them trade their old cars for new ones ! collectors would die to have them!!! ok just trying to bring some cool to all the heat ! I can speak for stogieluvers Character though . Rich is an outstanding guy and would never intentionally stir **** unless its about college football !

[Ken Gargett]

If not meeting obama today has caused this level of angst on a small cigar forum imagine the discussions/arguments in the wider world

Not a good way to start.

therefore the conclusion is Raul should have met obama at the airport!

not wishing to flog the proverbial deceased equine but how on earth does that work? talk about two and two make four hundred.

as far as we know, obama and the american delegation have absolutely no issue with this at all. they may even have rejected an offer to be met at the airport because they preferred something else. we just don't know.

but a % of people are unhappy that raul isn't showing what they (note - they, not the american delegation or the president) believe is enough deference. therefore raul should do as this possibly very small minority wants.

i think that is utter nonsense.

if someone shows me evidence that either obama or the american delegation was upset with this or wanted the first meeting at the airport and were rebuffed, then certainly revisit it. but there is absolutely no evidence other than that cooked up in the minds of people who seem to have their own agenda. little point in noting, to these people, that it was the US which instigated the embargo. now they seem to want cuba to be pathetically grateful and subservient because someone finally has the balls to remove it.

punch joe, if you read this, i would be genuinely interested in your view and what you think the locals feel about this.

[Ken Gargett]

for what it is worth, here is the schedule.

every minute would appear to have been carefully planned.

http://www.ibtimes.com/obama-cuba-visit-2016-schedule-events-historic-havana-trip-2339737

[El Presidente]

punch joe, if you read this, i would be genuinely interested in your view and what you think

Jose I am quite sure yould look at you...smile...put on his best Aussie twang and go " I couldn't give a rats arrrrse maaaaaate"

I am astounded why any one cares. They are politicians.

[Ryan]

I know why Raul didn't show up at the airport.

His hair goes really frizzy in the rain. It's an issue for him.

[Ken Gargett]

Jose I am quite sure yould look at you...smile...put on his best Aussie twang and go " I couldn't give a rats arrrrse maaaaaate"

which would completely support my entire argument.

[El Presidente]

which would completely support my entire argument.

Ken...you are the only one who cares about your "entire argument"

[Ken Gargett]

Ken...you are the only one who cares about your "entire argument"

ah, if only that were true. sadly, if it was true then we would not have had 60 posts in a day.

[btp1979]

Wait,

Is Papua New Guinea getting Nukes?

I kinda of just skimmed the thread

[MooseAMuffin]

Wait,

Is Papua New Guinea getting Nukes?

I kinda of just skimmed the thread

No, New Zealand is....

[Colt45]

I would have never expected Castro to meet the plane, nor care whether he did or not.

Reading this and a few of the other recent U.S. political discussions has been enlightening, and I've learned a few things:

The world chose $$ over Cubans.

As people who've had their reservations bumped can attest, it seems Cubans are returning the favor by choosing $$ over honoring prior commitments.

People who in the past have espoused Cubans getting ahead, now lament the fact that while visiting Cuba, they have to pay the more realistic prices for goods and services that would actually help the Cubans do so.

I need to brush up on my Nordic politics.

Have a great week everyone!

[Orion21]

there are almost always multiple reasons for anything that happens and i don't imagine anyone truly believes that there is a single reason for the problems of cuba but are you seriously suggesting that the imposition of the embargo by the USA has not been a major contributor?

Ken how about this . . .

Let's see how you would react if Russia placed nuclear missile bases on OZ . . . all pointed at Brisbane, Sydney etc. Let's not white wash why this embargo occurred by minimizing the serious reason it was imposed in the first place. Let's also not forget how evil the Castro regime was, especially in the early years, to it's own people. There have been many good reasons to keep the embargo in place over the decades, even if those do not still resonate with people today.

As a BTW, who cares about Castro not meeting Obama at the airport? It was probably Obama's team who requested it. Castro would have loved to have had the photo opportunity, but Obama wouldn't have wanted those optics.

[TheGipper]

I've never been surprised by the claim made by the Castro regime and others inside Cuba that everything that's bad in Cuba is due to those mean imperialistic American dogs and their "blockade" and "meddling".

What's surprising is that this point of view gets serious consideration outside of Cuba.

[Cigar Surgeon]

People who in the past have espoused Cubans getting ahead, now lament the fact that while visiting Cuba, they have to pay the more realistic prices for goods and services that would actually help the Cubans do so.

As someone who visited Cuba a few times, I'm all for paying a realistic price and rate for goods. But that isn't what is happening, there's wholesale gouging and scamming taking place at this point.

If a run down hotel in Cuba costs more a night than the Wynn in Las Vegas, something is very wrong.

[PigFish]

I have just deleted a rather scalding post... and did not post it. I just wanted you all to know!!! -LOL

Here is what I have salvaged! Can someone steel the wheels off of AF-1? Need I explain?

-Piggy

[Fugu]

As a BTW, who cares about Castro not meeting Obama at the airport? It was probably Obama's team who requested it.

As mentioned before, with this part I agree. At least, that was most likely negotiated upon bilaterally in advance and did not come by surprise.

My take on it - Obama wanted to make clear he is visiting Cuba, not visiting the Cuban gov. alone, as he will be meeting up with representatives of other groups that are as important to him. Like clergy, dissidents, students and entrepreneurs, if I got his agenda correct from the news. A picture with Raul at the airport would have sent out a different message. This way, I for one receive Obama (and by taking his family with him) as a more liberated vistor.

[Fugu]

If a run down hotel in Cuba costs more a night than the Wynn in Las Vegas, something is very wrong.

Why? Demand and supply - it's a free market, isn't it...?