Forever Chasing That Dream Cigar

[TonyAccardo]

Hey guys and gals. Last November I had ordered several boxes and along with them, I ordered some singles too. Well, the specific cigar I'm talking about was/is a Hoyo Epicure #2 and both the singles were heavenly to say the least.......whipped cream, vanilla, graham-n-honey and chocolate along with coffee and toffee as more subtle notes underneath. I would assume these cigars were very fresh.

Since then I've acquired two boxes from the same source and I'm not questioning their legitimacy but NONE of them have been even close in flavor.

Now my question is this-------Has anyone here experienced a box that was pretty bland, just only really having that cuban "tang" to the tobacco, some slight toasty tobacco notes but really just more bland cuban tobacco taste, has a box of cigars like this ever turned the corner for you and developed into a cigar like I described earlier??

For me, and I've been buying/aging/smoking for some 5 years and I've yet to see this happen. I always read about guys getting bland, rather flavorless boxes of cigars and many, many guys will chime in and tell them "Just stash them away for several years and I believe you will be pleasantly surprised!"

The only time I've been "pleasantly surprised" was when the cigars were creamy, vanilla, graham and honey to begin with that they've developed into even better cigars. I've never seen a bland box go from bland to sublime in even the five years that I've been at this.

What if any experience has anyone had where this did happen for them?

[soutso]

Hello,

A friend on this site gave me the best piece of advice I have ever had with regard to cigars.

The best cigar I have ever had was a Monte 2. It was one of two singles I purchased. It blew

me away. It had a coffee, chocolate, cinnamon notes. It left a sweat tang at the back of my throat that

lasted for several hours afterward. Beautiful. I see that moment as the moment I was truly hooked.

I have chased that experience ever since. I have purchased several singles (SEVERAL!!!) and four boxes of Monte 2 since.

I've had aged Monte 2, fresh ones, I've tried them all and I've had good to very good experiences. Up to 85%

of 'that' experience.

My friend told me to view cigars as you view people. Cigars, like people are individuals. They are all different, none

are exactly the same, even within the one box. Store your cigars in consistent humidity and temperature conditions, find

what your palate prefers and stick to it. This will maximise your experience.

Cheers

[TonyAccardo]

Yeah, I agree with you. And though alot of people won't agree with me on this, my Epicure #2's could just as well have been banded as something else like a Ramon Allones SS or some other Robusto coming out of cuba. I've always subscribed to the practice "Whatever you're favorite vitolas are, buy alot of boxes of that vitola in any brand and you're likely to find that dream cigar somewhere in there."

I've had and have boxes of Epicure #1's and #2's that differ more between boxes than differing from different brands. Granted, there was a time when you could really tell the difference consistently between different brands and vitolas but I've found the differences are still there but it's not purposely designated to any particular brand. You could get a spicy, earthy, and peppery rich leathery D4 as easily as you could get the same in a SLR Regios. It's just such a damn crap shoot and in a way, I can see why people say cubans aren't all they're cracked up/hyped up to be but I think half the fun is in the inconsistency of the cigars and the adventure of the hunt and the hope that the age you put on a box will yield that holy grail.

What I was really wanting to know though, and I've done plenty of searching and reading on aging, was has anyone had a really mediocre box young that turned the corner after say 5 years and ended up just being a glorious box of cigars? The problem with my question is you can only base it off of the cigars you've already smoked out of the box. Who's to say all the rest of the cigars weren't glorious when you decided to put the box away and they just got better. That's the thing that flaws my question from the get go. I don't really buy into the whole "aging" thing although I do it still but you don't really know whether the cigars you already smoked were just duds and the other cigars were just alot better from the beginning. Of course cigars change over time but to the degree of going from bland yet tangy cuban tobacco with no other real flavors to a real sugary cream-vanilla-honey-graham-chocolate-coffee stick, I just don't think it happens nor have I experienced it yet. I want to but haven't.

The main reason I ask is because I have two boxes, one a BAM May 14 and the other EML May 13, that are both full of Epicure #2's that have a darker, yet dry looking wrapper, slight plume, not much, not much scent but slightly barnyardy and they taste just like they look........very boring, leathery, light toast, and what I call a cuban "tang" but other than that no honey or graham like most other Epicures both 1 and 2 and I just don't see these going anywhere great. Now these cigars could just as easily been banded and boxed as another robusto cigar but that day they recieved HdM Epi 2 band and box but if they were banded and boxed as something else, like a marca that the general cigar population says is "normal" to need 5 years or more before they become smokeable/approachable then it would seem normal for them to smoke shitty. Again, I don't buy all that. I've had Cohiba Robustos that tasted/smoked beautifully ROTT and I use this as an example because it's one alot of people say require 5 years or more of age before they're good. Now to me, the great one I smoked, I just think it would've been even better at 5 years and not have quite so much if any bite in the last third like they do when most all cuban robustos have. But conversely, if the CoRo would have tasted like one of my Epicure #2's does, I don't think it would taste much better in 5 years or even 10 for that matter! Any thoughts or experiences contrary to my line of thoughts and experiences? I'd love to hear them and would love it if someone would totally destroy my line of thinking, believe me I would!

[Smallclub]

Granted, there was a time when you could really tell the difference consistently between different brands and vitolas but I've found the differences are still there but it's not purposely designated to any particular brand.

What I was really wanting to know though, and I've done plenty of searching and reading on aging, was has anyone had a really mediocre box young that turned the corner after say 5 years and ended up just being a glorious box of cigars?

When was this time – you just said that you've been buying/aging/smoking for some 5 years? Anyway I disagree.

The Trinidad Ingenios, released in 2007, were bland and uninspiring until last year.

The Por Larrañaga petit corona is almost unsmokable until it has 5 years of age, and then it's a totally different cigar…

An other example is the Upmann No.2…

[torm3nt]

What I was really wanting to know though, and I've done plenty of searching and reading on aging, was has anyone had a really mediocre box young that turned the corner after say 5 years and ended up just being a glorious box of cigars?

The Montecristo Open Masters are pretty dull and lifeless new, but give them 5-6 years and they are just phenomenal. Massive hits of honey, vanilla, even a little caramel. Gorgeous, but when they're young, there's just nothing there.

[TonyAccardo]

When was this time – you just said that you've been buying/aging/smoking for some 5 years? Anyway I disagree.

The Trinidad Ingenios, released in 2007, were bland and uninspiring until last year.

The Por Larrañaga petit corona is almost unsmokable until it has 5 years of age, and then it's a totally different cigar…

An other example is the Upmann No.2…

I knew someone would take issue with that comment. Well, from singles that I've smoked that I've boughten or have been given by friends of not only me but my father's as well, examples from the 70's and 80's. Not only that, and I think we all pick up on this info more or less to a certain degree from what we hear others say or what we've read from reviews also.

I'm glad to hear that some do change so drastically, I've just never experienced it with ANY of my boxes boughten in 2009-2010, when I started seriously plunking down large amounts of money to store and age boxes.

My humidity is 64-65% maintained with 8 60gram Boveda paks so I highly doubt that would have any bearing here. And I've experimented around with rh enough in the last 5 years to know where I like my cigars to be when I fire them up.

[cigcars]

I experienced the Habano royal dreams of maple and raisins when I bought a box of Saint Luis Rey Churchills back in 1998. Smooooth...wonderful...T-W-A-A-A-A-A-N-N-N-G all the way!

[cigaraholic]

If your looking for your 83 pt cigar to turn into a 93 pt cigar....dream on....

With bland tobacco you really have no chance. There are many reasons for a very good cigar not to smoke well, but if the quality of the tobacco is **** the best you can hope for with time is creamy ****.....aka R&J for many years.

[earthson]

I have noticed that the H Upmann PC is bland and pretty meh at first. It blossoms into a wonderful smoke so long as I don't smoke them all checking in to see if they've turned around yet

[MIKA27]

I've enjoyed many cigars and have had great experiences and some not so great.

In saying this, I recall the first ever VR Unicos I ever enjoyed as being one of THE BEST cigars I have ever truly enjoyed right down to the nub. I have enjoyed many other VR Unicos since but have never come across one as enjoyable as the first. Still a brilliant cigar and full of flavour BUT nothing as the spice and flavour bomb I enjoyed the first time.

My second cigar that I enjoyed just as much was a Punch Double Carona with OzCuban at my place a couple years ago. I'm sure Steve will agree, those sticks were amazing and despite several more afterwards, the first we enjoyed were the best. Perhaps it was the company and or maybe we were rather inebriated?

But I have to agree with Soutso.. treat each single cigar as an individual.

[mgravito]

I've experienced this with a Partagas P2. I had one from a 10 count box that was incredible. I can honestly say it was the best cigar I've ever smoke. Coffee and light earth and cream and angel spit and magic. And that was it. Never again found it. Still lot's of close cigars, but not like that. I've tried 25 ct and 10 ct and it's just not happening.

Also, I've never found a cigar that was bland boring to blossom in to something great. I've found cigars that were tannic or harsh or sharp develope in to something great. There just needs to be something there to build on. My assumption was always that a bland and boring cigar just became a less harsh bland and boring cigar.

[TonyAccardo]

I've experienced this with a Partagas P2. I had one from a 10 count box that was incredible. I can honestly say it was the best cigar I've ever smoke. Coffee and light earth and cream and angel spit and magic. And that was it. Never again found it. Still lot's of close cigars, but not like that. I've tried 25 ct and 10 ct and it's just not happening.

Also, I've never found a cigar that was bland boring to blossom in to something great. I've found cigars that were tannic or harsh or sharp develope in to something great. There just needs to be something there to build on. My assumption was always that a bland and boring cigar just became a less harsh bland and boring cigar.

This is exactly my experience also. I think alot of guys get second-rate quality cigars flogged off on them from alot of these grey market sites and don't want to admit to themselves, let alone others, that they've not only been had, but that come hell or high water, if there is no structure, no "bones" to the cigars to begin with, they'll still be left with a box of second to third-rate CC's that someone like Rob, wouldn't even think to send to a paying customer. You see these guys all over the cigar forums doling out their advice to others who've been had and have a box full of bland, harsh, no-scent-having cigars sitting in thrir humidors to "Just put them back for 5 or so years and you'll be surprised at what they turn into!"

Of course cigars will change to a certain degree but I call bull$#! t that they're going to "surprise" anyone at what they'll "turn into"!! What you've got in the beginning is what it is! Of course what that is will become more refined and the "rough edges" will be aged out of it, but essentially it ain't going to turn into a vanilla creamsicle if it's a no-flavor having, bland tobacco missile to begin with, and there are plenty of vendor selling legit habanos that ARE dry, flavorless ****-missiles out there. It does not pay to try and save $50-100 in this game of acquiring and enjoying the finer things this world has to offer us.

Thanks to those who've given their responses and experiences. I, and I'm sure other's here, certainly appreciate it. It's nice to have a forum about our cigars that isn't filled to overload capacity with trolls and children. First class forum for sure. And all of this just goes to show that it pays to go with someone like Rob for a vendor. You can sit on your $320 box of Cohiba Robustos till you're old and grey and you're still going to think that they "need more time" when you go to dip into them 20 years later. It just is what it is and you get what you pay for, period!

[saintsmokealot]

Even if you have 2 cigars identical in humidity level, construction, weight, and blend it is nearly impossible to duplicate the smoking experience with other factors not usually considered including but not limited to mood, smoking location, ambient temps/humidity, beverage pairing, buzz, and company.

[CaptainQuintero]

 

The Montecristo Open Masters are pretty dull and lifeless new, but give them 5-6 years and they are just phenomenal. Massive hits of honey, vanilla, even a little caramel. Gorgeous, but when they're young, there's just nothing there.

I wouldn't say there is nothing there young, I distinctly remember a taste not dissimilar to sucking hot vomit through a tramp's crusty underpants

[TonyAccardo]

I wouldn't say there is nothing there young, I distinctly remember a taste not dissimilar to sucking hot vomit through a tramp's crusty underpants

Really man?!? They're that bad to you eh? I agree they're bland but not alot different than alot of other habanos coming out that have that bland, cuban tobacco tang to em. Well, like they say, taste is subjective.

[Smallclub]

This is exactly my experience also. I think alot of guys get second-rate quality cigars flogged off on them from alot of these grey market sites and don't want to admit to themselves, let alone others,

Grey market cigars are EXACTLY the same quality than cigars sold on the...errr... white market?

The grey market cigars for the most part come from well known distributors.

Grey market vendors are the problem.

[CaptainQuintero]

Really man?!? They're that bad to you eh? I agree they're bland but not alot different than alot of other habanos coming out that have that bland, cuban tobacco tang to em. Well, like they say, taste is subjective.

Yeh I agree totally it's all down to tastes. I know some people love them. I know Kenny G is a fan of them

The last one I had was from last year's blind tasting. Throughout the cigar I was racking my head to try and identify what cigar has the profile of hot arse and old grease traps

[TonyAccardo]

Grey market cigars are EXACTLY the same quality than cigars sold on the...errr... white market?

The grey market cigars for the most part come from well known distributors.

Grey market vendors are the problem.

I understand what you're saying and what you mean. Yes, all habanos are habanos period. But, and this is my experience from transacting with 3 different grey vendors, that there is a much higher chance that you'll get a mediocre box than if you were to buy through an LCDH or a licensed Habanos dealer who leaves all seals intact. That is my experience and no amount of people saying it ain't so would not change me mind.

Of course, barring fakes, Habanos are habanos and the quality will differ and be all over the map. But when you're dealing with a vendor, say Rob for example, who has first pick of the boxes straight from Habanos S.A., you're going to have a MUCH HIGHER chance of getting that great box of cigars. I don't think most grey market vendors have this option or luxury and are stuck with a large portion of boxes that have already been picked through and/or rejected by "first-line" retailers. If you know of different circumstances I woukd be interested to read about them but from both my own experiences and simple logical thinking and deduction from information gathered from different suppliers and sources this is my firm belief.

[Smallclub]

Yes, all habanos are habanos period. But, and this is my experience from transacting with 3 different grey vendors, that there is a much higher chance that you'll get a mediocre box than if you were to buy through an LCDH or a licensed Habanos dealer who leaves all seals intact.

If you buy from a LCDH that sends you the first box of the stash, without checking anything, you get exactly the same chance to get a mediocre box… I have seen mediocre boxes in every LCDH I have visited…

[Smallclub]

But when you're dealing with a vendor, say Rob for example, who has first pick of the boxes straight from Habanos S.A.,

Rob gets his allocation through PCC, the distributor for the Pacific region.

[TonyAccardo]

If you buy from a LCDH that sends you the first box of the stash, without checking anything, you get exactly the same chance to get a mediocre box I have seen mediocre boxes in every LCDH I have visited

Of course, although I would say most LCDH distributors go through their boxes upon receipt. I know for a fact Ajay Patel does and I think Robs made it pretty clear to us all that he does too. Look I'm not going to argue the point any further. If you feel just as confident in spending your cash and recieving boxes upon boxes from whatever "grey market" vendor it is that you transact with rather than from a legit vendor, then great. It's not my money nor my cigars and from my experience, I'm glad its/they're not. Have I received good cigars from grey vendors? Of course but I've recieved far, far more mediocre quality boxes from them and I'd say for me it's 80/20 bad/good, with "great" or exceptional never entering my humidor.

When I said "leaving seals intact, I meant not tearing off the bar codes or taking other stickers such as distributor stickers off. They still go through the boxes and the chances of you getting a box that's NEVER been opened by any distributor or vendor is slim to none.

People are going to believe what they want, what makes them feel most assured and nothing I can say is going to change the minds of anyone, nor is it my intention. I was just putting forth what I've experienced and if someone out there is reading this and thinking to themselves "Hey man, that's the case with what I've been experiencing too." Then great! Either way it makes no difference to me. I've been happy with my choices and even though I've got boxes in my humidor that, looking back on it, I wish I didn't have and would have been better off spending the extra coin getting either a PSP/HQ box from Rob or from some other legit LCDH. Either way, buy what you want, smoke what you want as it's not me buying and smoking them and matters none to me. Respond with what you will but I've said what I've said and stand behind it 110% and I'm done saying anything further about it as it will serve no purpose except to start a flame war whichi have no interest in participating in. Good day and enjoy your smokes.

[...]

Let it go SC, no need to have the last word on this. Opinions, even mis-stated, will remain opinions. Cheers!

[Vortigan]

I wouldn't say there is nothing there young, I distinctly remember a taste not dissimilar to sucking hot vomit through a tramp's crusty underpants

Greg it's time raise the bar a little with these eclectic practices of yours

[TonyAccardo]

This guy ain't worth it to me. I've read through all the threads with his baiting and am going to leave it where it is......where I found it!

[Firebender]

I have noticed that the H Upmann PC is bland and pretty meh at first. It blossoms into a wonderful smoke so long as I don't smoke them all checking in to see if they've turned around yet

Smoked 1 Upmann PC from a PSP box which was meh..

Sure hope it blossoms soon.