Smokers' rights in Australia

[Kangaroo495]

Hi all.

I've been invited to speak at the International Conference on Smokers' Rights in Moscow tomorrow. I'm not much of an expert the subject, but they wanted a token foreigner to be able to deliver a short speech in English and say something about the smoking bans in Australia.

Would be awesome if anyone had a few tips on what I should be saying in regards to the overall current situation with the smoking ban in Australia. Also of interest is smokers' opinions on plain-packaging cigarettes/cigars, and whether any of the anti-tobacco measures have been "successful".

I've got more or less of an idea on the situation, but having not lived in Oz for many years, I'd prefer to hear some first hand accounts and opinions.

Thanks!

K495

[Rye]

Not really sure about the complete situation in Australia except for what I've heard from my Aussie friends, but here in Canada we are not far off. The elimination of venues to enjoy a cigar has hurt the small local economy and the driving up of the taxes to astronomical levels has definitely increased the amount of imported non tax payed tobacco and I know there would be an increase in sales at the B&M level if it was even half of what it is now.

Good luck with the speech

[Jeremy Festa]

This will provide you reputable, and somewhat unbiased insight

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4026465.htm

[Pedro2486]

IMO: plain packaging has done nothing to make smokers quit. It may have reduced the number starting but not by much. The tax increase also will not prove effective and I think the government not only knows that but is relying on that fact to keep the same amount of money coming in with less smokers.

In WA we have no rights at all. A lot of places have more of a "you can only smoke here" rather than just being out of the way and other people's air. Also with cigars - see our eviction from the SMOKING area of the aviary rooftop bar as a primary example of the attitudes toward smokers

[polarbear]

IMO: plain packaging has done nothing to make smokers quit. It may have reduced the number starting but not by much. The tax increase also will not prove effective and I think the government not only knows that but is relying on that fact to keep the same amount of money coming in with less smokers.

In WA we have no rights at all. A lot of places have more of a "you can only smoke here" rather than just being out of the way and other people's air. Also with cigars - see our eviction from the SMOKING area of the aviary rooftop bar as a primary example of the attitudes toward smokers

Plain packaging has done nothing to help bring smoking rates down, in either cigarettes or cigars

Considering it cost tax payers millions of dollars to implement, it just goes to show you that people will support any measure that they're told will curb smoking rates regardless of what it costs or how well it actually works

In terms of smoking bans, I been thrown out of a number of smoking areas over the years by cigarette smokers who insisted that my cigar was bothering them. I am also banned from a venue in Darwin after refusing to leave when the manager tried to tell me that the "smoking section was for cigarette smokers, not cigars".

It is true what they say "In 10 Years Hell Will Be The Only Place You're Allowed To Smoke"

[AlastairE]

I just had to do an economics assignment on the effectiveness on tobacco (specifically cigarette) tax in Australia...

I was forced to take the pro-stance as part of the assessment...

From my assignment (correct me if I'm wrong - I am a rookie economics student at best ) but the government enforces tax (an increase on tobacco duties/excise)

• so external costs of smoking (costs on society and others, i.e health sector costs, costs to the workforce due to sickness/absenteeism etc) are covered by a tax/excise on tobacco.
• However these taxes, without fail, generate tax revenue by taking from consumer surplus. I have diagrams

As tobacco products are inelastic goods, the tax incidence (who bears the burden of the tax) is felt the most by consumers, rather than the producers. And, once something becomes too expensive, demand usually falls, and as such, consumption decreases... (tell me if I'm wrong please )

The plain packaging and restriction of smoking in certain areas are part of nanny statism in Australia, and are just other measures the government has taken to try and decrease the prevalence of smoking in Australia. The government will argue that the restriction on smoking in certain areas is to prevent further external costs (specifically on non-smokers) but plain packaging is a lot of tripe.

The argument is of course different for cigars vs cigarettes, in terms of health costs etc. But certain comparisons can be made between the two.

"Successful" in terms of decreasing cigarette smokers, but also successful in pissing off cigar smokers around Australia. A duty increase might up the price per pack of cigarettes by a couple of dollars, but the price on cigars is increase astronomical, as cigars are 100% tobacco. Tax cigarettes and cigars differently, and you might have a 'more fair' system. Per unit, rather than weight of tobacco...?

I tried to keep that as opinion-free as possible aha That's how the government is justifying it, but there is no mention of the effects on local businesses etc.

[oliverdst]

Tomorrow?!

If I were you, besides what other fellowmembers have said above, call Rob and talk to him.

[NJP]

One thing no government sponsored statistic will show is the move of smokers to black market cigarettes and tobacco. South East Asian and Middle Eastern cigarettes are more popular than ChopChop and no tax revenue benefit. Released statics on what they believe is consumed is absolute speculation. We also celebrate getting a little parcel in the mail past customs, cigars, pipe tobacco, snuff all of these don't participate in the great tobacco tax cash grab or the statistics.

[CaptainQuintero]

-increase in black market, making organised criminal gangs more powerful and giving them more influence in all of their areas of crime

-ignoring the Finnish (or Scandinavian) study which is the only detailed one, which showed that plain packaging actually increased smoking in young people due to the 'forbidden fruits' effect

[CaptainQuintero]

Dramatic decrease in people who look cool also, while initially this may seem insignificant think of the impact on the potential possibility of first contact with extraterrestrial beings. The rate we are going, they are going to go straight past us and head instead for the 'Beer, Redmeat, Stogies and Cheese Nebula' and leave us be in our tofu salads and sensible shoes.

[sengjc]

In my opinion, I don't think plain packaging works - if I want to have a smoke, I will and I couldn't care less what the packaging looks like.

Certainly I can see that the increase in tariffs does work or will help reduce consumption - price it out of reach. Conversely, I think it will be more effective if coupled with subsidies for smoking substitutes such as nicotine patches, gum etc. or even therapy.

Bans in indoor venues are understandable, I personally do not think it is fair for non-smokers to breathe in exhaled smoke. However bans on establishment and businesses that have traditionally been setup to cater for the smoking crowd such as cigar bars/lounges/clubs is heavy handed - it's a cigar lounge, who do you think will go to a cigar lounge...doh! Agreed that it should be regulated, perhaps a special licence to operate a smoking venue is justifiable (issued at a fair price of course) but a blanket ban seems to be unfair to these businesses.

I do not believe in enforcing one's moral ethics on others but allowing others to have the freedom of choice to decide for themselves. If your personal beliefs/ethics are objective, logical and common sense, eventually others will follow.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[CaptainQuintero]

Cigar inspector did a good review of a book written to show how myths or statistics are used to paint smokers/smoking in certain lights too:

http://www.cigarinspector.com/cigar-accessories-reviews/tobakkonacht-the-antismoking-endgame

[Puros Y Vino]

In regards to plain packaging, more needs to be said about the commercial harm to the product. It opens up the market to counterfeits exponentially. No more fancy bands to replicate? Sweet. I wonder how Australia or any other wine producing nation would react if they were forced to put generic labels on their wine should "anti-alchohol" become the rage?

[MIKA27]

I don't know if much can be said weather plain packaging has stopped consumers quitting. I know I haven't stopped purchasing and consuming cigars.

Here is an article from earlier this year

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-22/philip-morris-wrong-plain-packaging/5137682

[polarbear]

In regards to plain packaging, more needs to be said about the commercial harm to the product. It opens up the market to counterfeits exponentially. No more fancy bands to replicate? Sweet. I wonder how Australia or any other wine producing nation would react if they were forced to put generic labels on their wine should "anti-alchohol" become the rage?

Its already happening

Most alcoholic beverages sold in Aus now have a (albeit small) warning somewhere on the label, normally near the nutritional info panel. While this is a far cry from the olive green, rotting gums, tobacco packaging it is how this sorta stuff starts.

Get a warning on the product and slowly increase its size until it covers the whole packet

[Puros Y Vino]

Its already happening

Most alcoholic beverages sold in Aus now have a (albeit small) warning somewhere on the label, normally near the nutritional info panel. While this is a far cry from the olive green, rotting gums, tobacco packaging it is how this sorta stuff starts.

Get a warning on the product and slowly increase its size until it covers the whole packet

And according to this. Alcohol kills more people than tobacco.

[Duxnutz]

Reminds me of this ....

[Kangaroo495]

Good info guys. I think I've got what I need. Sitting at the conference here and everyone's smoking cigars!

[cigcars]

And according to this. Alcohol kills more people than tobacco.

*I'd like to see how many people kick the bucket due to marijuana use. I'll bet it's a far number way below all the other "things" we indulge in for casual recreation

[Pedro2486]

Good info guys. I think I've got what I need. Sitting at the conference here and everyone's smoking cigars!

So how did it go mate? Anything worth reporting on?

[Kangaroo495]

Hi all!

The conference was a great success! I was actually surprised at the amount of people who trekked all the way to Moscow to participate. Had one bloke from Jakarta, another from Chile, others from Europe. The confernece dealt with both cigarette and cigar smokers' rights, however, the whole occasion was organized by the Russian Cigar Union, and it seemed the majority of participants were cigar lovers. Unfortunately, due to work, I had to duck out for a few hours, so missed some of the speeches, but here's the memorandum which we all agreed on:

We, the participants of the First International Conference on Smokers’ Rights, have met in Moscow to share experiences and look for solutions how to achieve public consensus on the issue of tobacco smoking, and find effective ways to have our voice heard on a global level.

We observe many countries adhering to the balanced approach to tobacco regulation, equally respecting smokers’ and non-smokers’ rights, while others take very radical steps to exterminate smoking and to turn adult smokers into social outcasts. Strange as it may seem, the former often enjoy lower smoking incidence than the latter.

We believe that modern society cannot be divided into first-class and second-class citizens, so public consensus must be based on a mutual respect. The rights of one person should not violate other people's rights. We note that tobacco smoking is a legitimate

and conscious choice of millions of adults worldwide, and considered by many as an integral part of national economies and historical heritage.

We are deeply concerned by the raising efforts to stigmatize and discriminate people who have consciously chosen tobacco as a part of their everyday life, fully aware of its positive and negative aspects. We believe that adult smokers deserve appropriate tobacco smoking conditions that do not appear derogatory or pose additional health risks, but effectively protect non-smokers from tobacco smoke.

We cannot accept that tobacco consumers are deprived of their right to be informed about the product they buy, because tobacco products are legitimate all over the world. At the same time we recognize, that non-smokers and adolescents must be protected from any kind of tobacco advertising.

We urge all governments of the world to find the right balance on tobacco-related issues, taking into account the diversity of opinions, customs, behavioral norms, and not to ignore the interests of both smokers and non-smokers. Prohibitions and sanctions raise protest, while cooperation opens the way to public consensus and joint efforts in solving important societal issues.

[Kangaroo495]

Forgot to add, that I received a nice little gift on the day from my Russian Cigar Union friends:

Btw, the humidor was the gift, not the table. Made by Vyacheslav Kirsanoff (who has his own cigar brand).

[CaptainQuintero]

Nice! Did plain packaging off cigars get discussed at any level?

[Kangaroo495]

Nice! Did plain packaging off cigars get discussed at any level?

Acutally, I don't believe so. Only the packaging of cigarettes. Which, incidentally, appears to have had only one effect so far - people are tending to buy the cheaper brands of smokes.

[Colt45]

The conference was a great success!

Thanks for the follow-up, Roger