TiminBC Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I have been doing a marathon of FOH videos and here lots of talk about balance. Can someone elaborate a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munts Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 As you are aware there are three main components to a cigar. These are the wrapper, binders and filler. The blending of wrapper, filler and binder is what determines the overall flavour of a cigar. Different brands of cigars have different blends of wrapper, binder and filler types. Balance is used to describe how these how the various tobaccos used interact with each other. Both in terms of how strong the cigar smokes but also how the flavours of the various components complement each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Balance is harmony between different types of flavors, and between flavors and strenght. To be able to express themselves, the flavors must be supported by a certain strenght level. If you detect some nice flavors, but they are almost hidden behind a strong tobacco taste, your cigar lacks balance. But, if these nice flavors are too fleeting, they don't "stay" in your mouth, have no impact on your body (no nicotine), your cigar lacks balance as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGC Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Balance is only what you perceive it to be. You will develop your own opinions after smoking numerous cigars and matching flavors with various profiles. Do you prefer spice, pepper, woodiness, herbal qualities, mild body, medium body, full body, etc., etc. You will develop your own preferences over time... and they may change as well. Just like cars or women... everyone perceives the perfect "package" differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 ... everyone perceives the perfect "package" differently. Not really. It it were true how would you explain the consensus on certain cigars? A cigar can be "objectively" too peppery, or lacking a minimal amount of flavor… And prior to having an opinion you must get an education… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 And prior to having an opinion you must get an education… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGC Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Not really. It it were true how would you explain the consensus on certain cigars? A cigar can be "objectively" too peppery, or lacking a minimal amount of flavor… And prior to having an opinion you must get an education… Of course you will get agreement with extremes, but I don't agree with making blanket statements about cigars and profiles. Many like to try and make selecting cigars an objective decision, but it's never that simple. I'm more likely to place value in an opinion coming from someone I know... with a palate similar to my own. I like to encourage folks to use others' opinions as guidelines, but not as the absolute truth. Nobody should let others tell them what is a good cigar or a bad cigar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I guess Balance could mean all things being equal . The perfect smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdC Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 there are two types of "balance": * one on a production/construction level * one on the tasting level an easy trick I recently learned from didier houvenaeghel to check if the cigar is production/constructionwise in balance is to overheat it by quickly taking +/- 10 puffs after each other if you still have the taste you used to have, your cigar is in balance if not, yeah.. i guess it's obvious this means that even tasty cigars - production/constructionwise - can be out of balance the balance on a tasting level has already been described Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 an easy trick I recently learned from didier houvenaeghel to check if the cigar is production/constructionwise in balance is to overheat it by quickly taking +/- 10 puffs after each other if you still have the taste you used to have, your cigar is in balance if not, yeah.. i guess it's obvious this means that even tasty cigars - production/constructionwise - can be out of balance I fail to see the relation with "balance". What you describe is about good construction. When a reviewer says something about balance, it's related to the taste, not to the construction. And it automatically implies that the blend, thus the construction, is balanced… I can't remember a good, balanced cigar that was poorly constructed, let alone poorly blended… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdC Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I fail to see the relation with "balance". What you describe is about good construction. When a reviewer says something about balance, it's related to the taste, not to the construction. And it automatically implies that the blend, thus the construction, is balanced… I can't remember a good, balanced cigar that was poorly constructed, let alone poorly blended… that was also my opinion but then i'm not in the business i look just like you to "balance" as a consumer and not as a producer i'll explain you my experience last week i was with didier houvenaeghel (you probably know him, nicarao) anyway not an idiot and probably one the more knowledgeable people about tobaco (i don't know anything so don't take my words for truth, i just reflect and try to learn something new like you do) he gave a presention and supervised a tasting of his new la ley he said that that cigar was perfectly in balance (which wasn't the case in my opnion) then he did the test just like i described to you, the cigar was exactly the same we did the same test with another cigar (balmoral anejo 18 which is really not a bad cigar) and it was awfull therefore - apparantly - what balance is for a producer is not necesarrily the same as for a reviewer that's what i made out of it and i thought it was valuable to share in order to think outside the box you have to get outside the box... i also used to look at "balance" purely from a tasting point of view i won't exclude i will take this little test once in a tasting session conclusion: it seems this is a discussion about semantics i agree with you that when a producer refers to "balance" as what i just described he (or she) is actually talking about construction which could be in "balance"... i'm just saying that when we talk about "balance" not everybody means the same thing wiht it and i thought this was a nice addition to the question only the fact that we are discussing this means it was worthwhile mentioning but in essence i agree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiminBC Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 Ok thanks to all who answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baragh Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 And prior to having an opinion you must get an education… I feel that was a bit harsh, I happen to agree with brandon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I feel that was a bit harsh, I happen to agree with brandon It's harsh if it's misinterpreted. The "you" wasn't directed to anyone , I guess I should have written "one must get…" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baragh Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 It's harsh if it's misinterpreted. The "you" wasn't directed to anyone , I guess I should have written "one must get…" Ah understood With regards to consensus on balance, surely there must be variance between how each person perceives balance or the perfect package given the different styles and varieties of blends available. Also just from my own experiences, when I see threads discussing favourite cigars, while I do a see a bias towards certain cigars or blends, there is definitely plenty of variety. And interestingly enough, the cigars that do have a large following, when compared with each other vary greatly, while each considered "balanced" in their own way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 And interestingly enough, the cigars that do have a large following, when compared with each other vary greatly, while each considered "balanced" in their own way Maybe but I have the impression that you don't often read the word "balance" in reviews of young RASS, PSD4, Punch Punch, or, at the opposite side of the spectrum, in reviews of Choix Suprême, Fonseca No1 and other light weights… You more often find the word in reviews of Upmann Connoisseur No.1, RyJ Exhib4, Upmann RR, SLR Serie A… I might be wrong though… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckSARTech Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 People who speak in absolutes rather than in shades of grey in matters such as these....lack balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baragh Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 People who speak in absolutes rather than in shades of grey in matters such as these....lack balance. Only a sith deals in absolutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginseng Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Ok thanks to all who answered. Hah, why do I have this image of a guy clutching a bundle of cigars in each fist, cowering in the corner? It seems that perhaps an innocent question has revealed the passion and the pitfall of Habanos. Here is one more perspective for you to consider: Balance generally pertains to taste but moreso aroma. Other aspects of the experience such as body, texture, draw are generally not considered as a matter of convention. Balance, harmony, coherence, unity, Yes, I can use the thesaurus. But seriously, the essential concept is really no more, no less than a pleasing combination of aromas that is pleasurable without any one aspect overly prominent for an extended period of time. Balance and complexity are complementary concepts. If a cigar is stone simple, there not enough flavors to balance. If a cigar is unbalanced, then a single note is over dominant. So, TiminBC, read a little, smoke a little. Talk to the fine members here, and remember that pleasure and experience go hand in hand. And knowledge is something that can make both better. Wilkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginseng Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 ... everyone perceives the perfect "package" differently. Not really. It it were true how would you explain the consensus on certain cigars? Surely you must have perceived that he was speaking about preference and not evaluation? therefore - apparantly - what balance is for a producer is not necesarrily the same as for a reviewer conclusion: it seems this is a discussion about semantics i'm just saying that when we talk about "balance" not everybody means the same thing Yes. It is about semantics. Specifically, it is about how people with different roles in relation to Habanos intend different meanings for the same words. To the producers, balance may mean "functional." Whereas to the connoisseur, it may mean "harmonious." I feel that was a bit harsh, I happen to agree with brandon These are two different things, yes? It was perhaps a bit brusque but not all who frequent this forum are native English speakers. And even if they are... Wilkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk05 Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Everyone starts a beginner, and through the journey of smoking cigars, "you" gain experience and become educated in cigars and the culture. That is simply what Smallclub meant. Oh and happy birthday Smallclub...I hope you had a great day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baragh Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 These are two different things, yes? It was perhaps a bit brusque but not all who frequent this forum are native English speakers. And even if they are... Wilkey I do bear I mind that not everyone here is a native English speaker, but I honestly didn't think it was an issue here. While they are two different things I misconstrued him to be implying that they were related. Expressing two separate ideas together may be done to imply that they are related, and I didn't think this was strictly confined to the English language. As he stated though, I've greatly misinterpreted him so my apologies for that, hopefully no harm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Describing "balance", at least as how I would define "balance" with regard to flavours, is maybe easier using more familiar tasting experiences. The flavours within a cigar, competing as they do with tobacco, are often elusive, even to the most experienced smokers. Look at the differences in the reviews in the blind tasting competition for example, to see just how difficult some of these flavours can be to perceive or describe. For something more straightforward, take a gin and tonic. Neither gin nor tonic by themselves are particuarly pleasant to drink neat. Tonic can be bone dry and gin can taste like chemicals. However, mix the 2 together, just right (for you) and they bring out flavours in each other in such a way as is simply not possible by themselves. That's balance (imo), mixing flavours in such a way as they complement each other without any being overpowering. To me, gin and tonic, in just the right mix with ice and lemon can taste like orange marmalade. There's the term in cooking "salt to taste", meaning add as much salt as is good, again for you. Cook up some home made french fries. By themselves, fine. However add just the right amount of salt and the balance between the fat and starch in the chip and the salt brings a much more pleasant experience than either french fry nor salt can by themselves. That, to me, is balance. A little more "in your face" than the more nuanced flavours perceived from a cigar but the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk05 Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 so are you telling me to salt my cigars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Monte 1, add salt, ta-daa, Sancho Panza Molino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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