khomeinist Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Monotheistic cults! Ha Somebody fetch Ken from his mid-afternoon nap. We have some live bait on the hook! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyfall Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 too soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upnorth3 Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Doesn't Quebec have a gang and mob problem they should worry about first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcedCanuck Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 I believe there should be a separation of church and state. I also believe in freedom of religion and from my point of view that also means the right to be free from religion. I do not think government employees should be allowed to bear their cult symbols because of the separation of church and state. If you have crazy beliefs keep them to yourself, no need to advertise and shove them in our faces especially if you are working on job paid for my tax dollars. If you want to wear that stuff do it on your own time. If I walk into a government building I do not want to have that stuff shoved in my face. Like the old saying goes: religion should be treated like a penis: It's ok to have one It's ok to be proud of it Don't whip it out in public Don't force it on children Don't write laws with it Most importantly of all don't think with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckSARTech Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 I believe there should be a separation of church and state. I also believe in freedom of religion and from my point of view that also means the right to be free from religion. I do not think government employees should be allowed to bear their cult symbols because of the separation of church and state. If you have crazy beliefs keep them to yourself, no need to advertise and shove them in our faces especially if you are working on job paid for my tax dollars. If you want to wear that stuff do it on your own time. If I walk into a government building I do not want to have that stuff shoved in my face. Like the old saying goes: religion should be treated like a penis: It's ok to have one It's ok to be proud of it Don't whip it out in public Don't force it on children Don't write laws with it Most importantly of all don't think with it LOL. Love the penis analogy. And agreed...there should be a separation of church and state. However.... When we have a country that's founded on Christianity and Christian-values, when we have religious symbols on our money, when we have government offices and legislatures that have crosses/crucifixes (and Marois said that they wouldn't be getting rid of the crosses at the Quebec legislature, nor even requiring MP's to follow these new rules), how can they preach separation of church and state and secularism on one hand, but somewhat embrace it on the other? Religious freedom - it's part of the values and principles that our country was founded on. And just like new immigrants and/or those of other religions need to honour and respect that part of our nationalism, so must we respect their religious choices also. A Sikh doctor wearing a turban is not an affront to me and my religious beliefs, and nor should that impede on his ability to treat my ills/sickness if needed (of which I have many! LOL). And similarly, it shouldn't matter if that same Sikh goes to get a driver's licence done, or goes to a bank to cash a cheque. How does the religious symbol of his turban negatively affect what is being done, or negatively affect the religious beliefs of those around him? And likewise, he should not be affronted by anyone else wearing religious symbols. This no more shoves another person's religion into one's face than it does to simply drive down the road as a Catholic and see a sign advertising a Greek orthodox church. People are getting waaaaay too sensitive and paranoid, and using religious-based excuses as crutches for their own bigotry and preconceptions. The Quebec government seems to be grabbing ahold of this, and using it as an excuse for their own self-aggrandizing plans of separation and glory. Again, didn't mean for this to become about different religions, per say, but more about how the Quebec government made these decisions. SIDE NOTE - By the way, I'm adamently atheist when it comes to all "organized religions" (the Catholic Church is the most corrupt big business out there, IMO), but agnostic in my overall beliefs, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordAnubis Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Very interesting topic. For the record for those that do not know, i myself am a practicing Muslim. I do not believe in the Burqa, but do believe in the Hijab (if anyone would like to know what the differences in beliefs are regarding these articles of clothing, let me know, and i'll elaborate later). The thing i find about most of these "No religious clothing" etc arguments is that the vast majority of the people it targets are the Muslim women and Sikh men, because how many Christians do you see wearing big crosses or how many nuns do you see walking in the streets?. It's like making a law that says "only people with black hair are allowed to live", when the fact is that majority of Asian heritage people have black hair, but you'd assume Scandinavian people would have blonde or lighter shades of hair. I feel it is a form of a "targeted blanket rule". All that being said, this is not a public rule and is apparently only targeted to public servants working in the mentioned fields. People have to make a choice to not work in a field that does not allow them to continue their beliefs. There was recently a debate about a Pakistani Muslim cricket player who wore the Australian Cricket team uniform without a beer brand as the major sponsor on his shirt. I would like to offer personal opinion to all the people suggesting religion is a personal/private thing though. In my opinion i find my religion is the opposite, i feel for me it is a very public thing. I am proud of my religion and never have any problems talking about my beliefs to anyone. However there is also a limit that i do not cross in that i don't force my opinions on others etc (as the old saying goes, "always respect others and their views, and demand they respect yours".) One of my cousins that i smoke with has an idea of developing an Islamic tertiary institution in Australia. We were talking about it in great depth last night while having a Cohiba Secretos followed by shisha till 02:00. The biggest problem within the muslim community is that there are the preaching of the Quran, but they were relevant in those times and they were developed in their own context. Living in a western civilisation means that the ideologies that are in the Quran are required to be altered to suit the times we currently live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyfall Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Freedom of Religion and the expressions there of are very important and powerful rights that need to be preserved and respected. On this day 9/11, of all days, I want to thank our Heroes who fight and die to protect and preserve such an important fundamental right and privilege. I thank God that there are those willing to fight to protect ideals that are so important and imperative. There will always be the disrespectful know it all non-believers that try to tear down the founding theology of their creation as a human as well as a Country. There will always be those that run their mouth in defiance against the beliefs of those that actually fight and die for the protection and preservation of such an important right which has every place as an important part of our culture and Government. I pray for my Government, those that fight to protect my freedoms and rights and even those that are lost and wayward with no light to guide them away from the wrong direction. I hope nothing but God's blessings for all my atheist and agnostic brothers and sisters. I pray for those that paint all Religion with the brush of it all being a cult, they are the ones that do not have the wisdom enough to discern the important difference. If you express your end of the spectrum and convey it as "right" and "logical", I will express my end of the spectrum too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 What allows you to talk like this? Why do you have to bring 9/11 in this discussion? It is totally inappropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyfall Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 What allows you to talk like this? Why do you have to bring 9/11 in this discussion? It is totally inappropriate. A brain, freedom of speech and I've served my Country allows me to talk like that. Inappropriate??? It's not like I compared religion to a penis. But I'm not going to cry about it like others who cry fowl as soon as someone else poses an opinion that opposes their own, because I understand that my beliefs are as foreign and illogical to you as yours are to me. If a debate is one sided, it fails to be a debate! EDITED: (I wrote my opinion on someone from France dictating to me jurisdiction over my opinion, reverence, and honor regarding 9/11, but I deleted it, because I respect the rules of our host and forum.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcedCanuck Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 I hope nothing but God's blessings for all my atheist and agnostic brothers and sisters. I pray for those that paint all Religion with the brush of it all being a cult, they are the ones that do not have the wisdom enough to discern the important difference. From an Atheists point of view they are all the same and the only difference I see between a cult and an accepted religion is the number of people who follow it. When only one person believes he/she is considered insane. If a few more people start believing it is a cult and when you have thousands of people who believe in the same thing it is considered a religion or so it seems to me. A few years ago I was in a bank and there were a couple woman wearing burqas (I am assuming they were woman but really who knows for sure). Anyway it got me wondering how fast security would tackle me to the ground and call the police if I walked in there with a ski mask. Due to their 'religious beliefs' they are granted 'special' privileges under the rule of law that I am not. Same goes with the Sikhs ... they are allowed to legally carry swords around with them but I cannot. They are also granted special privileges and rights under the rule of law that allows them to wear a turban when others cannot have any headgear/head-wear on of any type or they can substitute part of a uniform for it for example Sikh police officers do not have to wear the police hat that is part of the uniform. There are many examples of such things. Some people may say who cares, relax, chill out, it doesn't matter. For me personally I cannot stand it when any special interest group is granted additional rights and freedoms that everybody else does not have. In my opinion you either have equal rights or you do not have equal rights. I am a proponent for equal rights right down the line so when I see certain groups of people that have managed to have laws changed just for them it irks me. Don't care if we're talking about minority rights, female rights, marriage equality, LGBT rights, religious rights etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcedCanuck Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 A brain and freedom of speech allows me to talk like that. Inappropriate??? It's not like I compared religion to a penis. If a debate is one sided, it fails to be a debate! Absolutely, can't have a debate if it's one sided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenMonkey Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 What allows you to talk like this? A computer, a keyboard, and something to say. There was nothing offensive in what he said. Find something else to be outraged over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyfall Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 A few years ago I was in a bank and there were a couple woman wearing burqas (I am assuming they were woman but really who knows for sure). Anyway it got me wondering how fast security would tackle me to the ground and call the police if I walked in there with a ski mask. You make valid points in support of your opinion and debate. In response to the above statement, I would suggest you lobby for changes in law that you want to see in your country like allowing respectful citizens to carry and conceal their own firearms so you don't have to rely and fear whether or not a security officer can or will protect you in the situation of someone in a mask enters a bank and has criminal motives. = Which is also a very important right and freedom I cherish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 never mind. this thread is going to the toilets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puros Y Vino Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Folks. Today is an emotionally charged day. Just an FYI, keep this thread to point/counterpoint. Not calling anyone out. Just putting it out there. This thread has been an interesting and educational one. Let's keep it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcedCanuck Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 You make valid points in support of your opinion and debate. In response to the above statement, I would suggest you lobby for changes in law that you want to see in your country like allowing respectful citizens to carry and conceal their own firearms so you don't have to rely and fear whether or not a security officer can or will protect you in the situation of someone in a mask enters a bank and has criminal motives. = Which is also a very important right and freedom I cherish. The problem, IMO, is the government was lobbied by religious groups and they caved to them. I did not intend for what I said to be interpreted as me being scared around people wearing masks either because I am not. I am opposed to any groups being granted special privileges that only they get to have. I am also a proponent to gun control and I would not want to live in a place where people are walking around with firearms. Please do not misinterpret that as taking a shot at you because I am not I simply have a different view on that topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckSARTech Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 Not offensive maybe, but paternalist and misplaced. Atheists don't need help. What if I wrote something like "I will ask Gaia/Mother Nature/Darwin's manes/etc. to show you the truth"? This is not a discussion about legitimacy of religion(s). And again, why bringing 9/11 in this discussion? This, and yet earlier you mentioned that all who spoke out against laws such as this, and those in France, are "Muslim extremists"? If someone brings 9/11 into the discussion, so be it, if it adds to the debate of the subject. Again, my original concept of this was more of an inquiry on the political motivations behind Quebec's decision on this proposed law. But many people's (IMO flawed) perception of Islam / Muslims does definitely tie into the discussion post-9/11, and the media reporting on such subjects since then. I don't think anyone's in support of extremism, in any form. And, it comes from all sorts of religions. But this discussion, and this proposed Quebec law isn't about rooting out extremism. It's about a biased approach to segregate out specific religions due to a paranoid fear of fringe extremism. And Phil - a Sikh kirpan is not a sword. It's a small ceremonial dagger that's not even sharpened or used as a tool or weapon. No different, relatively, from you being allowed to use/have a small pocket knife in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyfall Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 The problem, IMO, is the government was lobbied by religious groups and they caved to them. I did not intend for what I said to be interpreted as me being scared around people wearing masks either because I am not. I am opposed to any groups being granted special privileges that only they get to have. I am also a proponent to gun control and I would not want to live in a place where people are walking around with firearms. Please do not misinterpret that as taking a shot at you because I am not I simply have a different view on that topic. Fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckSARTech Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 Folks. Today is an emotionally charged day. Just an FYI, keep this thread to point/counterpoint. Not calling anyone out. Just putting it out there. This thread has been an interesting and educational one. Let's keep it that way. Frank....you're welcome. You wanted the moderator powers of doom.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cohiba Stevie Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Just to clarify. We atheists do not believe in a deity, a creator or a god whatever you want to call it. It's not that we don't believe in religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion21 Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 You either have freedom or you don't. FYI, all of the 9/11 hijackers assimilated when they got to the US. They drank alcohol, shaved their beards and socialized with women - then they killed 3,000 men women and children. May they burn in hell with their "virgins." My point is that if a society says it provides individual freedoms like freedom of religion it MUST not target one very large ethnic/religious group out of fear or the attitude of "we know better than you do." The Bhurka issue is nothing more than government extending it's power into our private lives. Forget if you believe in what Muslims believe or not, imagine if the government unilaterally told Frank he could no longer wear his cool hats because they offended people with full heads of hair like me That would be ridiculous, right? Well imagine you live your whole life believing in one thing, wearing your bhurka, head scarf etc and then some bureaucrat tells you it's now illegal. "For what reason?" you would ask and the bureaucrat would say "because your way of dressing represents repression and abuse." What they do is say "because _________ " and fill in the blank. The reason doesn't have to be true or even remotely accurate. It's all about perception. The perception is that all Muslim women are repressed in some way BECAUSE of their religion, but the real repression comes from the government mandating what is or is not culturally acceptable. That my friends is dangerous for all of us because it creates the slippery slope for EVERYTHING else they either don't like now or won't like in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 i actually really liked quebec when i visited. at least they didn't try and kill me, a la that fleapit montreal. but politicians. seriously? shakespeare had it very wrong. kill all the politicians, not lawyers. just some lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckSARTech Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 i actually really liked quebec when i visited. at least they didn't try and kill me, a la that fleapit montreal. but politicians. seriously? shakespeare had it very wrong. kill all the politicians, not lawyers. just some lawyers. LOL. Annnnnnnnnnnnddddddddddddd.......Lucifer's minion found this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckSARTech Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 An Ontario hospital weighs in on the situation (very savvy, I might add).... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/09/12/quebec-values-charter-ads-mcgill-lakeridge-oshawa-hospital.html?cmp=rss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 they should try the same thing in montreal. a few doctors would do wonders for their hospitals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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