...And Quebec takes another step backwards

[CanuckSARTech]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/09/09/montreal-quebec-parti-quebecois-charter-of-quebec-values.html?cmp=rss

Pretty soon, Quebecers need to "get with the times", so to speak. After reading lots of news articles related to this and other Quebec items over the past few years, and based on different public perception polls, the rest of Canada is getting more and more fed up with the "whiny adolescent" attitude coming out of Quebec.

Their provincial government (I refuse to call it a "National Assembly" as they've arrogantly and self-righteously coined it) is going more and more off the deep end with the PQ.

Frustrating, as I love the culture and beauty that's inherent in Quebec (and obviously enjoy the friendship of many BOTL's from there as well).

But, no matter how beautiful you are, if you have no brains, it's a relationship that cannot last, IMO.

[Puros Y Vino]

It's a long term ploy to "expunge" those that wouldn't work/vote towards separation. Namely immigrants or visible minorities. I'm all for secularism. IMO religion should have zero involvement in government. It's a bit much on the symbols people wear. But I do believe that the hiding of one's face for the sake of religion shouldn't be accepted. And not so much for security reasons, but for human rights reasons. I doubt that most people if given the choice and free from coercion whether cultural, familial or institutional would choose to hide behind a veil. That is something that is imposed, not chosen freely.

[Smallclub]

Religious symbols are banned in public places in France for a long time. Everyone is fine with that except, guess who, Muslim extremists…

[CanuckSARTech]

Religious symbols are banned in public places in France for a long time. Everyone is fine with that except, guess who, Muslim extremists…

Wow. That's a very far cry to state "muslim extremists". One doesn't have to be an extremist to be an adament follower of their faith, and vice versa.

Its the kinds of bigoted opinions like these that cause these paranoid governments to make such idiotic and undemocratic rules.

Doesn't make it right. Wearing a cross is not a religious requirement, but other religions have strict guidelines about very specific religious garments.

Agreed.

[shiva13]

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...es.html?cmp=rss

Pretty soon, Quebecers need to "get with the times", so to speak. After reading lots of news articles related to this and other Quebec items over the past few years, and based on different public perception polls, the rest of Canada is getting more and more fed up with the "whiny adolescent" attitude coming out of Quebec.

Their provincial government (I refuse to call it a "National Assembly" as they've arrogantly and self-righteously coined it) is going more and more off the deep end with the PQ.

Frustrating, as I love the culture and beauty that's inherent in Quebec (and obviously enjoy the friendship of many BOTL's from there as well).

But, no matter how beautiful you are, if you have no brains, it's a relationship that cannot last, IMO.

Very harsh on Quebec.

I dont think its such a bad idea.

[Smallclub]

Wow. That's a very far cry to state "muslim extremists". One doesn't have to be an extremist to be an adament follower of their faith, and vice versa.tic rules.

This statement is meaningless. Nothing, in none of the monotheist cults, is incompatible with the french rules. Millions of muslims here were respectful of the law since the 50's, problems started with the raise of "extremist" Islam.

Religion is a private thing, it should be kept in the private sphere.

[mash]

Any one here read "Oh Canada, Oh Quebec"? An old Mordechai Richler novel. I really enjoyed it.

[CanuckSARTech]

Very harsh on Quebec.

I dont think its such a bad idea.

Then, when Quebecers are everywhere else in Canada, much less the world, should they be made to speak only English? Refused service if they don't speak English? Read that again - REFUSED service, not just not helped, but refused.

No. And people from Quebec (and rightly so) would FREAK out if that was the rule. But if the rest of Canada, say, chose to be straight English, no bilingualism, and Quebecers were forced to speak only English, and therefore must "adapt", there would be hell to pay. So why would the culture of language be any different than religion?

IMO, we're a multicultural society. Not a melting pot of assimilation, but a conglomerate of different cultures that integrates and welcomes all. Respect for religion is in there with those crazy things called human rights.

Quebec is doing this in a way to hit at the immigrant population and such that refuses to assimilate into the Quebec way of being. They're doing it in a backhanded way. Do I think that immigrants should be required / mandated to pass an official languages test (English or French) within say one or two years of their immigration to Canada? Absolutely, although I'm a bit wishy washy about how that could be done without being bigoted, but its kind of a good idea / concept.

But using religion as the crutch to drag that out there, without Quebec saying it's about the "primacy of the French language", is very uncool and un-Canadian, IMO.

I don't think that's harsh on Quebec at all.

[shiva13]

Then, when Quebecers are everywhere else in Canada, much less the world, should they be made to speak only English? Refused service if they don't speak English? Read that again - REFUSED service, not just not helped, but refused.

No. And people from Quebec (and rightly so) would FREAK out if that was the rule. But if the rest of Canada, say, chose to be straight English, no bilingualism, and Quebecers were forced to speak only English, and therefore must "adapt", there would be hell to pay. So why would the culture of language be any different than religion?

IMO, we're a multicultural society. Not a melting pot of assimilation, but a conglomerate of different cultures that integrates and welcomes all. Respect for religion is in there with those crazy things called human rights.

Quebec is doing this in a way to hit at the immigrant population and such that refuses to assimilate into the Quebec way of being. They're doing it in a backhanded way. Do I think that immigrants should be required / mandated to pass an official languages test (English or French) within say one or two years of their immigration to Canada? Absolutely, although I'm a bit wishy washy about how that could be done without being bigoted, but its kind of a good idea / concept.

But using religion as the crutch to drag that out there, without Quebec saying it's about the "primacy of the French language", is very uncool and un-Canadian, IMO.

I don't think that's harsh on Quebec at all.

Best of luck with all of that CanuarkSARTech.

[Smallclub]

No buddy. Problems started way back with France's Imperialism.

Now that's a stupid statement. What do you know about religious symbols in the public area in France, exactly?

[Louich]

Meh... Honestly I thikk it ia just an other ploy the make everyone look away from all their stupid moves (The all might PQ and Mao Marois). Plus the kingpin of all this, Bernard Drainvill, is an ex journalist who knows how to spin things. Hopefully the get kickout soon before we go deeper in the hole they dug.

Since the last year all they did was drop more taxes, do less than the other and forget about the economy. I love where I live but come one, who care about Quebec values. I am a 'pure laine' as they say and I find this utterly stupid. Honestly it is just something to stir the pot for some people who live under a rock in Montreal who think the city is too anglophone for their liking.

When I see things like this it makes me ashamed to say I am french canadian....

[CaptainQuintero]

[shiva13]

I cant help being extremely concerned for that poor child with MT.

[CanuckSARTech]

....

LOL. Love it! Great visualization there, to illustrate the hypocracy of it all! LOL.

[Puros Y Vino]

LOL. Love it! Great visualization there, to illustrate the hypocracy of it all! LOL.

A bit simplistic though isn't it? The one on the left typically chooses to participate at a higher lever in their religion by becoming a nun. The one on the right could be a sister, daughter or wife told to dress like this. In either case, it's a male view of female chasteness imposed upon a woman but I still see one had a choice and the other didn't.

[Cohiba Stevie]

Atheism...

Works for me! Lol

Some of you guys need to lighten up. Canuck took his time to write a cogent and reasonable post for his disagreement with quebecs actions, so there is no need to degrade the thread with some of the stupid comments posted already.

If you disagree, do it properly!

[Puros Y Vino]

Atheism...

Works for me! Lol

Some of you guys need to lighten up. Canuck took his time to write a cogent and reasonable post for his disagreement with quebecs actions, so there is no need to degrade the thread with some of the stupid comments posted already.

If you disagree, do it properly!

This thread is going along just fine so far. Most points and counter points are presented well. Any shenanigans or attacks will be addressed. No one is attacking CanuckSARTech. He made his points, others have made theirs.

[El Presidente]

i read through this thread and go "Good Point"...."Good Point"...."not sure"...."Good Point"...."not sure"

Debate at its finest is when it enlightens/questions ones own perspective.

[CaptainQuintero]

A bit simplistic though isn't it? The one on the left typically chooses to participate at a higher lever in their religion by becoming a nun. The one on the right could be a sister, daughter or wife told to dress like this. In either case, it's a male view of female chasteness imposed upon a woman but I still see one had a choice and the other didn't.

Not really, you're missing huge points and if anything it's the opposite. A nun has to dress in a habit, a Muslim doesn't. If the nun wants to wear something else she is not allowed and will be thrown out. Mainstream media bias aside, Muslim women wear modest clothing as a choice to cover up what they don't want men to see; curves and breasts etc are something for their husbands only not every man in the street. It's something they are incredibly proud to wear. The oppression argument is shouted by people who have no knowledge of Islam and the cultural differences. In true Islam women are the most precious things in this world, in Muhammad's last sermon he said to treat the women well. If a tabloid rag finds an example of abuse, says "this is Islam" and people believe it without learning about the subject themselves then no amount of facts will matter.

Nowhere is it said in the Quran that a woman has to cover up, there is no punishment if you don't, it's a personal choice which is an outward sign of ones own level of modesty.

[CanuckSARTech]

Atheism...

Works for me! Lol

Some of you guys need to lighten up. Canuck took his time to write a cogent and reasonable post for his disagreement with quebecs actions, so there is no need to degrade the thread with some of the stupid comments posted already.

If you disagree, do it properly!

This thread is going along just fine so far. Most points and counter points are presented well. Any shenanigans or attacks will be addressed. No one is attacking CanuckSARTech. He made his points, others have made theirs.

Agreed fully with both. No issues here. I think most points have been presented well - aside from some smarmy comments.

I done got big shoulders....

[CanuckSARTech]

A bit simplistic though isn't it? The one on the left typically chooses to participate at a higher lever in their religion by becoming a nun. The one on the right could be a sister, daughter or wife told to dress like this. In either case, it's a male view of female chasteness imposed upon a woman but I still see one had a choice and the other didn't.

Not really, you're missing huge points and if anything it's the opposite. A nun has to dress in a habit, a Muslim doesn't. If the nun wants to wear something else she is not allowed and will be thrown out. Mainstream media bias aside, Muslim women wear modest clothing as a choice to cover up what they don't want men to see; curves and breasts etc are something for their husbands only not every man in the street. It's something they are incredibly proud to wear. The oppression argument is shouted by people who have no knowledge of Islam and the cultural differences. In true Islam women are the most precious things in this world, in Muhammad's last sermon he said to treat the women well. If a tabloid rag finds an example of abuse, says "this is Islam" and people believe it without learning about the subject themselves then no amount of facts will matter.

Nowhere is it said in the Quran that a woman has to cover up, there is no punishment if you don't, it's a personal choice which is an outward sign of ones own level of modesty.

Agreed with both a bit, actually.

True, there's abuses of the religions all around. And yes, in some predominantly Muslim/Islamic countries, especially where Sharia law rules, men dictate this to the women. But, this is mostly a perversion of the religions. The women's hijab, as CQ stated, is about reserving themselves for their husbands. And, granted, it's partially a sign of subjection....but to Allah, not to men overall.

Either way, that's more about the fundamental differences between religions.

My thing is....

Whether it should be allowed for a Christian, democratic, multicultural, western-nation, to have a province making declarations and laws as they're trying to here to fundamentally dis-allow something that's protected under international human rights.

EDIT - looks like the federal government likely won't let it stand, anyways....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/09/10/pol-gov-mulcair-reax-pq-law-banning-reigious-symbols.html?cmp=rss

[Puros Y Vino]

Not really, you're missing huge points and if anything it's the opposite. A nun has to dress in a habit, a Muslim doesn't. If the nun wants to wear something else she is not allowed and will be thrown out. Mainstream media bias aside, Muslim women wear modest clothing as a choice to cover up what they don't want men to see; curves and breasts etc are something for their husbands only not every man in the street. It's something they are incredibly proud to wear. The oppression argument is shouted by people who have no knowledge of Islam and the cultural differences. In true Islam women are the most precious things in this world, in Muhammad's last sermon he said to treat the women well. If a tabloid rag finds an example of abuse, says "this is Islam" and people believe it without learning about the subject themselves then no amount of facts will matter.

Nowhere is it said in the Quran that a woman has to cover up, there is no punishment if you don't, it's a personal choice which is an outward sign of ones own level of modesty.

I disagree. First off, the original picture and commentary, painted a simplistic view. While Islam views women in higher esteem that most believe, the practice is not close. I don't know what it's like by you but over here in Canada we're starting to see honour killings. Statistically it's not enough to raise a panic but it is troubling nonetheless and it is backed by an overbearing attitude that says "you will wear this and you will not have a choice" That nun in her habit chose to enter a religious institution and abide by its customs and "laws". My point is that Muslim, wife or daughter is an ordinary citizen but is leaned upon to take upon a set of rules that may not jive with her wishes. That is not choice. That is pressure. It doesnt have to be backed by violence but it typically is backed by disdain, exclusion, shame, etc. Muslim women are seriously oppressed in many countries. They are not cherished or seen as equals no matter how much we like to think or hope they do. To keep on track with the original article. Quebec is right to champion secular views in government but its' going about it in a way that is going to breed resentment. I was raised and grew up in Canada. People with different skins color, head garb, accents, beliefs, etc are not strange to me. Our values are of inclusion. We respect Human Rights and the right for people to believe in whichever deity suits them. I know people from many stripes and I'm richer for it. Please don't mistake my views for Muslim bashing. I went to school with a lot of them and have had some epic discussions on every topic imaginable. The one thing that is clear to me now, is that what is written in the Quran is far different from what is practiced these past few decades. Mind you, that can be said of many religions.\

Cheers,

[El Presidente]

Not really, you're missing huge points and if anything it's the opposite. A nun has to dress in a habit, a Muslim doesn't. If the nun wants to wear something else she is not allowed and will be thrown out. Mainstream media bias aside, Muslim women wear modest clothing as a choice to cover up what they don't want men to see; curves and breasts etc are something for their husbands only not every man in the street. It's something they are incredibly proud to wear. The oppression argument is shouted by people who have no knowledge of Islam and the cultural differences. In true Islam women are the most precious things in this world, in Muhammad's last sermon he said to treat the women well. If a tabloid rag finds an example of abuse, says "this is Islam" and people believe it without learning about the subject themselves then no amount of facts will matter.

Nowhere is it said in the Quran that a woman has to cover up, there is no punishment if you don't, it's a personal choice which is an outward sign of ones own level of modesty.

When I use to fly Dubai or Abu Dhabi Europe regularly I was always amused to watch Muslim women in business class jump into the bathroom pre takeoff wearing their burqa and come out resplendent in their DNKY jeans and skimpy Gucci top

Now some women love to wear a Burqa...good on them. Others hate it....but are still expected to follow norms within their country. needless to say the norms are dictated by men.

It is where freedom of choice is taken away ( where that choice harms no one else) that I get my back up. That is regardless of one's religious bent.

In Oz you can not wear a Burqa covering ones face when entering a bank. It is the same as you are not permitted to enter a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet. makes sense to most of us but no.....religious persecution is brought out an paraded.

I have some great Muslim mates who are devote. They love Oz because it allows them to practice their beliefs while partaking in the bountiful goodness and opportunity that this country provides.

Still there is another group here who seek change in order to re-engineer laws to reinforce their view of Islamic life. This is where the majority of cultural conflict occurs. Aussies have a "get rooted" mentality to such subversion. The Islamic Right has a "we are persecuted and seek change" view.

As a country of immigrants this is the first time in our history that we have had a immigrant group seek judicial and cultural change. Again, there are plenty within that group who like it just fine as it is but the "agitator" components are loud and driven.

That is the heart of the problem here at least.

[srbbones]

A bit simplistic though isn't it? The one on the left typically chooses to participate at a higher lever in their religion by becoming a nun. The one on the right could be a sister, daughter or wife told to dress like this. In either case, it's a male view of female chasteness imposed upon a woman but I still see one had a choice and the other didn't.

Agreed!

[CaptainQuintero]

I disagree. First off, the original picture and commentary, painted a simplistic view. While Islam views women in higher esteem that most believe, the practice is not close. I don't know what it's like by you but over here in Canada we're starting to see honour killings. Statistically it's not enough to raise a panic but it is troubling nonetheless and it is backed by an overbearing attitude that says "you will wear this and you will not have a choice" That nun in her habit chose to enter a religious institution and abide by its customs and "laws". My point is that Muslim, wife or daughter is an ordinary citizen but is leaned upon to take upon a set of rules that may not jive with her wishes. That is not choice. That is pressure. It doesnt have to be backed by violence but it typically is backed by disdain, exclusion, shame, etc. Muslim women are seriously oppressed in many countries. They are not cherished or seen as equals no matter how much we like to think or hope they do. To keep on track with the original article. Quebec is right to champion secular views in government but its' going about it in a way that is going to breed resentment. I was raised and grew up in Canada. People with different skins color, head garb, accents, beliefs, etc are not strange to me. Our values are of inclusion. We respect Human Rights and the right for people to believe in whichever deity suits them. I know people from many stripes and I'm richer for it. Please don't mistake my views for Muslim bashing. I went to school with a lot of them and have had some epic discussions on every topic imaginable. The one thing that is clear to me now, is that what is written in the Quran is far different from what is practiced these past few decades. Mind you, that can be said of many religions.\

Cheers,

There is a honour killings here too along with lots of other crimes like wife beating, child abuse etc etc but there is a risk of generalising. I know lots of Muslims and none of them have done an honour killing, I know lot's of Catholics and none of them have buggered an alter boy, I know lots of atheist vegetarians and none of them have turned Germany around from an economic collapse then set up a national socialist dictatorship

No one is the Muslim community is leant on to dress in a certain way beyond overbearing parenting. Change the religion/country/creed and the overbearing Father or big Brother will lean on the wife/daughter to not dress in short skirts/drink alcohol/date boys any more than the former. For example there is no one jumping up and down on the Amish for making the females in their communities cover up in the same way with bonnets and petticoats and lots of layers, then making them sit separately at Church reading a bible is a language that is foreign to them and they are not allowed to learn that language. Essentially the same issues are present there but the colour of their skin is darker, I don't think they live on any land rich in oil either

The danger here is that Muslims, for what ever reason are the target for the media and it's up to everyone to stand by them and let the media that it's not on. In the UK it's pretty fever pitch at the moment and it's down to the media fanning flames. Newspaper headlines very rarely hold any truth and what classes as journalism nowadays isn't worth wiping between your cheeks. The vast, vast majority of Muslims, just like any other group/race/creed and decent kind and honest people. What is going on in the UK at least is uncomfortably getting close to late 1920's Germany with Jewish people.

Ironically what is it that HItler said; "the masses are feminine and stupid. Only emotion and hatred can keep them under control

When I use to fly Dubai or Abu Dhabi Europe regularly I was always amused to watch Muslim women in business class jump into the bathroom pre takeoff wearing their burqa and come out resplendent in their DNKY jeans and skimpy Gucci top

Now some women love to wear a Burqa...good on them. Others hate it....but are still expected to follow norms within their country. needless to say the norms are dictated by men.

It is where freedom of choice is taken away ( where that choice harms no one else) that I get my back up. That is regardless of one's religious bent.

In Oz you can not wear a Burqa covering ones face when entering a bank. It is the same as you are not permitted to enter a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet. makes sense to most of us but no.....religious persecution is brought out an paraded.

I have some great Muslim mates who are devote. They love Oz because it allows them to practice their beliefs while partaking in the bountiful goodness and opportunity that this country provides.

Still there is another group here who seek change in order to re-engineer laws to reinforce their view of Islamic life. This is where the majority of cultural conflict occurs. Aussies have a "get rooted" mentality to such subversion. The Islamic Right has a "we are persecuted and seek change" view.

As a country of immigrants this is the first time in our history that we have had a immigrant group seek judicial and cultural change. Again, there are plenty within that group who like it just fine as it is but the "agitator" components are loud and driven.

That is the heart of the problem here at least.

I think there are always those who pick and choose, fair play to them, I have a great Jewish friend in Canada who has sausage and bacon every morning and celebrates Christmas! I think it's the same as girls leaving the house in the morning in 'parent passing uniform' then getting changed at a friends house into the mini skirt or rolling up the skirt etc

We have the same issues here too, a vocal minority who want to change what is doing ok to suit their own strange ideologies, I don't think they will ever get Scotland independent but that's another issue

The trouble is that the majority get lumped in with the loud mouths then the tabloids can go to work. There are people I know who work in the building trade who think it's hilarious that their mates brick up pig heads in the walls of mosques when building them etc the same people wouldn't have even dreamt of doing something like that a few years ago and it's essentially all down to how the media is acting.

I basically want a level playing field for everyone, if burkas are going to be banned (It's been mooted around here) then ban them for everyone, no more nuns, Jedis or grim reapers. A decade ago I would have been confident that everyone would get to a certain point and then a judge or government ruling would come down telling people to grow up and all get along. Lately I'm not so sure, if anything the opposite has started to happen and flames are being fanned. If there's one thing that gets my heckles up it's bullying, and it's become an acceptable way to sell newspapers/get votes/look popular here