General Cigar prevails over Cubatabaco in Cohiba trademark dispute

[blotto649]

I never realized that the CC Cohiba didn't have any ownership in the NC Cohiba. Absolute BS ruling, but I guess it's what can be expected from a U.S.-based organization deciding on an American vs. Cuban company ruling.

http://www.examiner.com/article/general-cigar-prevails-over-cubatabaco-trademark-dispute?goback=%2Egde_49249_member_227441273

[Charltonc]

General cigars make horrific cigars that are considered a joke in the non cuban industry. They are bullies to B&M shops and quite a few of the B&M are fighting back and not stocking any of their stock. Gradually the little guys will rise again. I have two good friends that run cigar shops and they both cancelled their altadis and general account and the trend is growing.

[nikesupremedunk]

I smoked a red dot before I got into cigars and even then I knew it was horrible. I don't understand how these sell for the price in the USA.

[sw15825]

I tried to smoke an red dot cohiba robusto and pitched it in the first inch! It tasted of metalic or dirt. These cost over 250 u.s. a box! LOL!! I still have one, the cost is free!!

[sw15825]

I never realized that the CC Cohiba didn't have any ownership in the NC Cohiba. Absolute BS ruling, but I guess it's what can be expected from a U.S.-based organization deciding on an American vs. Cuban company ruling.

http://www.examiner....ember_227441273

I knew the Cubans had no ownership of the NC brand, but can't understand how General stole the brand from Cuba. This brand was not appropriated like many others. Just a thought.

[canadianbeaver]

Reading that article was almost as painful as the story itself with all the pop-up ads .

Pretty much all the other Cuban brands have the same counter parts in NC cigars. Would these be in the same boat as Cohiba Red dots? I am thinking especially about Punch. In Canada, many stores cannot sell Cuban Punch, because the NC Punch have the monopoly there.

[sw15825]

I think all the brands are pretty much in the same boat in the U.S. From a legal standpoint, I think.

[darkleeroy]

I think all the brands are pretty much in the same boat in the U.S. From a legal standpoint, I think.

Except the Altadis owned brands are also owned by Imperial Tobacco. Therefore, Upmann, Jose Piedra, Monte, RyJ will probably be the first brands introduced in the US.

[mk05]

They just want to be bought out.

[CaptainQuintero]

I think any ruling by a US court/judge has to be taken with a huge grain of salt when it comes to anything Cuban or if it is a US company Vs a Non Us (look at the recent Apple Vs Samsung legal issues)

[canadianbeaver]

Except the Altadis owned brands are also owned by Imperial Tobacco. Therefore, Upmann, Jose Piedra, Monte, RyJ will probably be the first brands introduced in the US.

These brands have been there for a long time, along with LGC and and Partagas. Just look at the Holts.com list.

[sw15825]

They just want to be bought out.

Do you mean General wants to sell the rights to Cohiba in U.S. to the Cubans? Later, because courts say they own it.

[Colt45]

How much different than the Cuban government appropriating privately held brands under nationalization.....

[DrunkenMonkey]

How much different than the Cuban government appropriating privately held brands under nationalization.....

Well, this particular injustice was upheld by a US court. So that's different.

[Othello]

I smoked a red dot before I got into cigars and even then I knew it was horrible. I don't understand how these sell for the price in the USA.

Yes, Andrew, that is why they have been dubbed "Red Dud"! Especially considering the money you have to fork over for these! When I first got into cigars, I asked a B&M if they had Cohiba and they led me to some Churchills that were $17 a piece! I passed and bought a few smaller ( cheaper ) ones later. Blech! Terrible!

No real surprise on the court ruling either.........

[polarbear]

The red dots are another example of an unnecessary and unpopular NC brand that saturates the industry and takes up shelf space of much cheaper and often better cigars.

I've never met anyone who enjoys this brand and the only reason they ever get any sales is because they carry a Cohiba band.

The NC industry could do to loose probably 30% of the lines currently on the market without hurting the US cigar industry,

Well... thats my opinion anyway

[kuzi16]

General cigar is a joke. they dont produce a single cigar i have any real respect for. there is one i am ok with but i will never spend money on.

their version of cohiba is awful. im sure that it is the name only that lures suckers in to pay upwards of $18 US. for that money i could buy the real thing and it will not be the laughing stock of my humidor.

the non-Cuban Cohibas over charge and under deliver.

[riazp]

As far as i can tell, most botl's who smoke NC's dont even bother with the Altadis or General cigar cuban derived branding like monte, cohiba, RyJ, Punch, ect. Most NC smokers smoke the higher end nc's that cost less than a red dot crap. Four kicks, Illsione, Pete's stuff, My Father, and on and on...

Heck B&M's and LCDH in canada cannot carry any cuban Punch cigars because of the trademark owned. True story.

[BlackIrish]

First, the NC Cohibas suck. Let's get that at of the way. And I'm not a fan of General Cigar generally.

But from a purely legal perspective, the ruling makes sense. Trademark rights are a country-by-country thing; just because you own the TM in one country doesn't mean you own it worldwide (remember how for a time Anheuser Busch couldn't use the BUDWEISER mark in Europe because of the Czech Budweiser?). You acquire TM rights by *using* the TM to sell goods and services. So if I'm selling my "BLACKIRISH brand smokeshifters" in the US but not in Oz, I can't prevent you from selling your own stuff under the BLACKIRISH brand in OZ, even if they're inferior smokeshifters, and no matter how famous my smokeshifters are in the US and Europe.

Here, Cuban Cohibas cannot be sold in the US because of the embargo. (I'm not going to argue that this is a good thing, but it is the current situation.) Because Cubatabaco is not legally permitted to sell its goods under the Cohiba trademark, it can't have trademark rights in the US for those cigars. It still has the rights to the COHIBA trademark everywhere else in the world, just not the US.

When the embargo ends someday, Cubatabaco and General will have to sort it out. Cubatabaco may have to buy the mark from General, or maybe General will be able to negotiate a deal to distribute Cuban Cohibas in the US some day. But I'm pretty sure that it will get worked out.

[ewipper]

Wow, this is an interesting topic. And I agree that the trademark issues will be a big deal if the embargo ever lifts. However, I would not underestimate the strength of General Cigars' arguments. When Cuba exiled the Cifuentes family and others who owned trademarks, those people lawfully went to General. There will be a problem to prevail over those marks.

As for everything General being crap, I would agree with the exception of cigars that Benji blends personally.

[CaptainQuintero]

I'd guess that legal recognition of Cuban state products by the US government will probably be part of any embargo deal as the Cuban government know they won't ever get a fair/unbiased hearing in the US courts.

[Bunner]

I'd guess that legal recognition of Cuban state products by the US government will probably be part of any embargo deal as the Cuban government know they won't ever get a fair/unbiased hearing in the US courts.

exactly! I understand the ruling, but i dont agree with it. To me it seems like they are just ruling on the fact that it will be a long time before the embargo is lifted. So why should the cuban brand hold any power over somewhere they will not(/never?) sell any product in the foreseeable future. I think if we created "Samsong" a mobile phone mfg here in another country we would be quashed at the speed of light.

[Orion21]

The legal decision makes 100% sense to me. If it's illegal to sell a product in the USA you have no legal standing to try and prevent another company from selling a legal product under the same name. It's not like The NC Cohiba cigars have complete knock off packaging and bands. They are very different and not marketed as Cuban Cohiba.

Trademark law is very very complicated, but it is easy to come to this conclusion because all Cuban goods are illegal in the US. Some enterprising fellow (company) figured out the illegal Cuban brands had marketing appeal in the US and bought the trademark rights to them. The rest is history. Additionally, since the rights were transferred so long ago I would not imagine HSA would have any standing once the embargo is lifted, unless they bought back the right or created US specific brands and trademarked those.

[ewipper]

The legal decision makes 100% sense to me. If it's illegal to sell a product in the USA you have no legal standing to try and prevent another company from selling a legal product under the same name. It's not like The NC Cohiba cigars have complete knock off packaging and bands. They are very different and not marketed as Cuban Cohiba.

Trademark law is very very complicated, but it is easy to come to this conclusion because all Cuban goods are illegal in the US. Some enterprising fellow (company) figured out the illegal Cuban brands had marketing appeal in the US and bought the trademark rights to them. The rest is history. Additionally, since the rights were transferred so long ago I would not imagine HSA would have any standing once the embargo is lifted, unless they bought back the right or created US specific brands and trademarked those.

The trademark decision makes perfect sense because you can't use a mark if you are under embargo. But the unfair competition decision is ridiculous. Unlike the rights to the brands that were expropriated like Partagas, Ramon Allones, Hoyo, Punch, La Gloria, there is no doubt that General is exploiting the invention and goodwill of a brand that began post-embargo and belongs to no one but Habanos/Cubatabaco. It is wrong and there should be an injunction against the sale of non-Cuban Cohiba, just as Judge Sweet ordered before he was reversed by the Second Circuit.

[PigFish]

This is the way that patent and trademark laws work amigos, there is not much use in getting upset about it! It is not about the quality of the cigars, I am afraid it is about the laws that govern these cases.

My father was responsible for approximate 100 patents over his life. Frankly, if he was not so far ahead of his time, one cent on each of his designs or inventions would have likely made my family the one of richest on the earth... That's the breaks, we got over it long ago. Most of these patents were expired long before I was born. Today, licensing interests on his patents would be worth billions! The market waits for no one and crying over it does no good. For the consumer it is certainly not a reason to cry, but to celebrate! It is the reason that I can buy my once very expensive heart medication for pennies in the generic market. It is the reason that consumers don't pay billions or trillions in licensing for each of the products that they buy, causing these products to be priced out of the range affordability for all but the rich.

Tabacuba did not take the necessary steps to protect its rights, if it in fact had any standing, which I cannot speculate. When you snooze, you lose! Sorry Dad! Sorry Tabacuba!

Wait and see what actions are taken agains Tabacuba when it comes to monopoly laws in America! I did not read this ruling... perhaps that was even a part of it. It might very well turn out that in order for Cuban tobacco to be sold in the US, Tabacuba must allow purchases of tobacco from the island by other companies in order to do so! I am guessing that his will be bigger than any trademark issue.

I don't really have an opinion about the ruling itself, as I said I did not read it... Frankly, I don't really care. Yeah, taking the Cohiba name... it is cheesy, but welcome to the world of business Tabacuba! If it were not for your monopoly on the worlds best tobacco, you guys would have been out maneuvered and put out of business by your own hand long ago!

The embargo may in fact be one of the major reasons that Tabacuba still exists... Americans may never get Cuban puros even if the embargo is lifted. It might turn out that in order to do business in the US, the Cubans may have to jump through too many hoops. With the Asian market developing, it might not be worth while to sell cigars in the US at all!!! The US may see blended cigars, perhaps none at all.

The biggest fight for us my friends is not for Cuban tobacco, but for our rights to smoke at all. Oppressive government oversight and legislation is not only the enemy of the smoker, but to all that enjoy freedom. It is your own nanny state government that is going to kill your right to smoke. You want to get pissed off over something, get pissed off over some imperial minded polly, telling you what to do with your life, not Tabacubas.

Cheers! -Piggy