as we are posting on guns, what about...

[Ken Gargett]

seeing as we have otherwise sensible but braindead on that particular issue (and again, no offence) members posting on guns, any thoughts on another sensitive issue - evolution versus creationism (i simply refuse to call it intelligent design - there is nothing intelligent about it at all)?

[archosaur]

Do they have 'intelligent design' in Australia and abroad? Learn something new every day - I thought it was purely an American Bible Belt invention.

Whenever this topic comes up I always think of the great Nova episode regarding the Kitzmiller v. Dover case here in the US: Intelligent Design on Trial

[Ken Gargett]

Do they have 'intelligent design' in Australia and abroad? Learn something new every day - I thought it was purely an American Bible Belt invention.

the push here seems far less strident, for want of a more forceful word, than it is in the states but i know one of the main proponents in the states, ken ham, was originally an aussie (think he has been in the states for about 25 years). the fun bit is that his aussie branch, which i believe hides in brisbane (sorry, i should have said resides in brisbane) sued him recently and they are having a ding dong battle (perhaps there really is a god).

[archosaur]

[cigcars]

Hmmm...? And I have to keep in mind that if I took my simple plastic wind up clock and insist and insist and insist that it came about all on its own...the same folks who believe that the human body with its mind capabilities millions of times more complicated came about due to big bang chance...they'd be ready to call the guys with the white coats and big butterfly nets on me for insisting on the former

[Fuzz]

I'd be throwing my lot in with the evolutionists... especially after seeing some of my distant family members.

[mazolaman]

To quote the great Bill Hicks"there's only one word to say to creationists,DINOSAURS"!

Intelligent Design,my arse.

Why is it that people who are forthright creationists are all inbred yokels?

Reminds me of Nik Griffin,the BNP party leader(ie right wing racist),shouting about the superiority of the caucasian race,while he himself is a swivel eyed fat munchkin.......

[JMH]

Can't stand intelligent design - a political ploy to enable religion to masquerade as science. Also can't stand the train of though that 'living organisms are too complex for me to understand right now, so they have to have been invented by god'.

[El Presidente]

You had to wait until I was in the warehouse .....didn't you Ken

I really don't care if people believe in Intelligent Design. I certainly wouldn't be calling them all idiots. If we ridiculed all movements which had serious holes then it would be a bloody big club....including all religions...including my own.

[partagasd4]

People who support intelligent design are the same people that support the Cuban embargo

[Ken Gargett]

You had to wait until I was in the warehouse .....didn't you Ken

be fair

i promised to hold off because there were going to be, from your own direction, no more american political posts and specifically, fair warning was given re gun posts and the moderate response that would follow.

if discussing the american supreme court overturning legislation, rightly or wrongly, is not political then i'll smoke cuabas for the rest of the year. not only that, you boosted it with your own posts. and i was dragged in several times (i had not even bothered reading it for a while but when i did, discovered that). i have no problems with that but, as a former and unlamented prime minister used to say, fair shake of the sauce bottle.

you opened the door. it would have been rude for me not to enter.

i would hope the discussion remains civil. otherwise, it should be shut down. it is surely as legitimate an issue as as something needlessly responsible for thousands of deaths.

and i believe i did not use the word 'idiot', if that comment from you was directed at me. i merely referred to otherwise sensible people who seem to struggle to understand that issue.

[typeapositive]

I really don't care if people believe in Intelligent Design. I certainly wouldn't be calling them all idiots. If we ridiculed all movements which had serious holes then it would be a bloody big club....including all religions...including my own.

So, what does Bacchus say regarding the beginning of life?

[Ken Gargett]

So, what does Bacchus say regarding the beginning of life?

now there is a god i could handle, though i'm sure legend has him committing hs fair share of atrocities. or did you mean rob or me (sarcasm never works quite so well in print)?

[Ryan]

So, what does Bacchus say regarding the beginning of life?

[Ryan]

To quote the great Bill Hicks"there's only one word to say to creationists,DINOSAURS"!

That's an easy one. They were too big to fit on the ark.

Next.

[El Presidente]

be fair

i promised to hold off because there were going to be, from your own direction, no more american political posts and specifically, fair warning was given re gun posts and the moderate response that would follow.

if discussing the american supreme court overturning legislation, rightly or wrongly, is not political then i'll smoke cuabas for the rest of the year. not only that, you boosted it with your own posts. and i was dragged in several times (i had not even bothered reading it for a while but when i did, discovered that). i have no problems with that but, as a former and unlamented prime minister used to say, fair shake of the sauce bottle.

you opened the door. it would have been rude for me not to enter.

i would hope the discussion remains civil. otherwise, it should be shut down. it is surely as legitimate an issue as as something needlessly responsible for thousands of deaths.

and i believe i did not use the word 'idiot', if that comment from you was directed at me. i merely referred to otherwise sensible people who seem to struggle to understand that issue.

Ken...I thought only that the photo was a good laugh in conjunction with today's story. Serious.

In retrospect I probably should have deleted time not on my side to see where it all went. Live and learn as they say.

[cigarros]

People who support intelligent design are the same people that support the Cuban embargo

Golden words!

[Ken Gargett]

In retrospect I probably should have deleted time not on my side to see where it all went. Live and learn as they say.

i merely saw it as a silver lining (and to be honest, have very little idea what was actually said on the gun post but that isn't the point).

[bunburyist]

I think for the purposes of this discussion it's first important to distinguish between 'creationism' and religion.

Religions are easy animals to attack and ridicule - gods with multiple arms and heads, some guy walking on water, moving mountains, arks with 2 of each animal etc etc. Religion is really what comes after the acceptance that everything was created by a greater force, and so pretty much irrelevant to this.

The question really is whether you believe it's all random, or part of one mammoth intergalactic plan.

Empirically, much of the evidence points towards randomness, mm by mm gradual evolution over incredible periods of time thrown into the context of there being literally millions and millions of star systems and galaxies out there (that's just the one's we can see). I'd say that makes sense. We're not perfect. We have weak joints. Can't endure extremes of cold or hot. Birth is painful and dangerous as we walk upright not on all fours. We tend to be self-destructive.

That all being said, I really hope there is a big dude in the sky who lays the smack down on the bad guys and passes a cold beer to the good ones when we die. Simple fact is, nobody's going to know until it happens. We're either God's children, or walking lumps of stardust. Good enough reason for me to try and live a good life, but also smoke as many cigars as possible.

All just my opinion of course

[Ken Gargett]

I think for the purposes of this discussion it's first important to distinguish between 'creationism' and religion.

Religions are easy animals to attack and ridicule - gods with multiple arms and heads, some guy walking on water, moving mountains, arks with 2 of each animal etc etc. Religion is really what comes after the acceptance that everything was created by a greater force, and so pretty much irrelevant to this.

The question really is whether you believe it's all random, or part of one mammoth intergalactic plan.

Empirically, much of the evidence points towards randomness, mm by mm gradual evolution over incredible periods of time thrown into the context of there being literally millions and millions of star systems and galaxies out there (that's just the one's we can see). I'd say that makes sense. We're not perfect. We have weak joints. Can't endure extremes of cold or hot. Birth is painful and dangerous as we walk upright not on all fours. We tend to be self-destructive.

That all being said, I really hope there is a big dude in the sky who lays the smack down on the bad guys and passes a cold beer to the good ones when we die. Simple fact is, nobody's going to know until it happens. We're either God's children, or walking lumps of stardust. Good enough reason for me to try and live a good life, but also smoke as many cigars as possible.

All just my opinion of course

good post.

[typeapositive]

now there is a god i could handle, though i'm sure legend has him committing hs fair share of atrocities. or did you mean rob or me (sarcasm never works quite so well in print)?

It sure does not

[Stalebread]

I think for the purposes of this discussion it's first important to distinguish between 'creationism' and religion.

Religions are easy animals to attack and ridicule - gods with multiple arms and heads, some guy walking on water, moving mountains, arks with 2 of each animal etc etc. Religion is really what comes after the acceptance that everything was created by a greater force, and so pretty much irrelevant to this.

The question really is whether you believe it's all random, or part of one mammoth intergalactic plan.

Empirically, much of the evidence points towards randomness, mm by mm gradual evolution over incredible periods of time thrown into the context of there being literally millions and millions of star systems and galaxies out there (that's just the one's we can see). I'd say that makes sense. We're not perfect. We have weak joints. Can't endure extremes of cold or hot. Birth is painful and dangerous as we walk upright not on all fours. We tend to be self-destructive.

That all being said, I really hope there is a big dude in the sky who lays the smack down on the bad guys and passes a cold beer to the good ones when we die. Simple fact is, nobody's going to know until it happens. We're either God's children, or walking lumps of stardust. Good enough reason for me to try and live a good life, but also smoke as many cigars as possible.

All just my opinion of course

Some interesting ideas here.

Just one point . . . evolution is not random.

As a life-long atheist (except for a few months in the late 1960's when I thought Malcolm Boyd was about the coolest guy in the world),

I come down firmly in the evolution camp.

[kjellfrick]

Some interesting ideas here.

Just one point . . . evolution is not random.

As a life-long atheist (except for a few months in the late 1960's when I thought Malcolm Boyd was about the coolest guy in the world),

I come down firmly in the evolution camp.

Never a doubt; evolution is the answer. Cuban tobacco (cigars) is the pinnacle of evolution!

And you could argue in a way that evolution is not random since it's the process of change by way of natural or sexual selection, but mutations are random, and they are the stuff that evolutionary change works on. Many of the things we have to overcome in order to stay in the evolutionary game are also random. Unpredictable things like climate, the number of pretty girls available etc are random...

[Onsto]

To quote the great Bill Hicks"there's only one word to say to creationists,DINOSAURS"!

Intelligent Design,my arse.

Why is it that people who are forthright creationists are all inbred yokels?

Reminds me of Nik Griffin,the BNP party leader(ie right wing racist),shouting about the superiority of the caucasian race,while he himself is a swivel eyed fat munchkin.......

Another Bill Hicks winner - "Have you ever noticed how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved"...

[joeypots]

I love to point out that Darwin's book, "The Origin of Species" says nothing about the origin of life. His theory is in fact one of the most tested and reliable theories that science has and is better supported than the theory of gravity. Before you laugh too much, please tell me exactly why the moon orbits our Earth. There is no, I repeat, no evidence to support the idea of intelligent design. All of the ideas proponents are putting forth are simply trying to give some credibility to the book of genesis. WTF< if the first parts of the bible are clearly incorrect, how can you lay claim that the rest of it is any more accurate?

This documentary is great and puts most of the debate to rest.

http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Day-Intelli...1795&sr=1-1