Flavor Intensity and Complexity

[Colt45]

Some recent discussions have got me thinking a bit about these two elements.

By themselves, they can make for a great cigar. When you have both, it can be cigar heaven.

Does size matter? I think it might..........

A perla or minuto that has good flavor intensity, but lacks complexity can make for a satisfying cigar. But how about a prominente or

gran corona? Even if they were very flavorful, given the time these require, without any complexity might we become bored?

What if we flip it around - relatively complex cigars that lack intensity of flavor. I might be able to tolerate it with a small size, but a two

plus hour smoke? Of course there are varying degrees of each element, and some combination of the two is always nice.

I think I tend to favor flavor intensity a bit over complexity, but am happiest when I get both - regardless of size.

[soltino]

I would agree Colt, flavour wins over complexity, IMHO.

For a longer smoke, anything over an hour so, if there is no complexity then it can detract a little from the overall experience. However, I tend to enjoy longer smokes with a good bottle of wine and several friends, so I tend to get my diversification from sources other than the cigar. I think if I sat and smoked on my own for 2 hours and the cigar had no subtle changes then it would definitely be a less than satisfying experience, regardless of how juicy the flavours are that the cigar provides!

Of course the ultimate is flavour + complexity

[Tampa1257]

Colt, I have to agree with you, I would love to smoke a complex prominente or a julieta with the flavor intensity of a minutos or a perla. My problem for the most part with larger ring gauge and large cigars is that they are too muted in flavor, sort of like smoking slightly flavored air, they have no punch, no powerful flavor for my palate to enjoy.

I would prefer flavor over complexity, yet I enjoy both.

[jdbrown]

This discussion makes me think how good RA 898 are smoking now. Best of both worlds. I think in the grand scheme of things I prefer flavour intensity as well.

[sounddust]

I have always loved complexity, ever since I first smoked a RASS. I remember being amazed that a few bits of leaf could provide so much flavor and taste. That said, I now prefer ring gauges of 46 and below, which is why my recent box purchases were the Ingenios and BCEs. Cigars of these sizes just feel best in my mouth and deliver the right balance of complexity and intensity for myself.

Also, my fave cigar below 5'' is the SCDLH El Principe. This beauty is minute but packs surprising intensity and complexity. And it's very reasonably priced.

All in all, it's the intrigue of complexity for me.

[Fuzz]

For me I prefer flavour over complexity. I can live with a 2hr flavourful cigar that lacks complexity, but a complex cigar with little flavour intensity? My tastebuds would never forgive me.

I prefer to relax and not think too much about what I can taste, more into just enjoyingthe ride with some good friends.

The Trini Fundadores I smoked last week was perfect for me. Not too complex, but with lovely rich cream flavours all over.

[Tampa1257]

The Trini Fundadores I smoked last week was perfect for me. Not too complex, but with lovely rich cream flavours all over.

WOW!!!

I have always thought the Trinidad Fundadore one of the most complex Habanos that I have ever smoked. Each to their own enjoyment.

[Guest rob]

I don't think I can think of one without the other... "flavour complexity", rather than "flavour" and "complexity" is the holy grail for me.

And as long as the flavours arent complex but taste like crap

[Ken Gargett]

must say that i am struggling to follow this one.

for me, complexity is an aspect of flavour. you can have intense flavours, subtle flavours, muted flavours, flavours that jar and so on and so on. and you can have complex flavours. so i am not sure i get this.

i suppose i would be in the camp that would strongly go for the complexity. intense flavours without complexity would very quickly get boring. i would find two hours of intensity without variation or complexity quite dull. but two hours of subtle complexity sounds like heaven in a cigar.

[Guest rob]

I'm totally with KG on this one.

[Colt45]

must say that i am struggling to follow this one.

I know this type of topic is not on the same level as illegal drag racing or posting pictures of Smithy as the missing link, but I

thought I'd throw it out there just the same.

In my mind, complexity is the changing of flavor(s) over the course of the smoke. So imagine a Montecristo A. It has a nice

flavor of coffee with some cream. It never changes - not over the whole nine inches. So to me it would lack complexity.

In this case, would you enjoy it, or might you find yourself a little bored?

I do realize that in many cases, there is an interplay between the two. I will try and do better next time.

[Guest rob]

Whoa... easy man.

Don't take offence, Colt. The topic is a good one for discussion.

I guess we are getting into semantics or difficulty communicating into words things we experience in a sensory way. I understood complexity to be an array of different flavours - a "flavour bomb" of sorts. That's why I had trouble separating the two.... as they were both important in the discussion.

Your example of the Monti A is a good one.

[laficion]

Colt, I get your point, I love when a cigar changes flavors from the start where It's herbal and

floral to the center where It gets earthyness and animal then ,at the end, where it picks up chocolate,

nuttyness with hints of dark coffee etc etc That is what I would call complexity, It changes, It

evolves, It does not stay put. Even with great taste, to me It would be one dimensional.

[Colt45]

Whoa... easy man.

Don't take offence, Colt. The topic is a good one for discussion.

Too late - I'm hurt, possibly irreparably. I'm off to drown my sorrows in a bottle of cheap wine.

I just hope my warm, salty tears don't ruin the acrid, vinegary flavors.

[anacostiakat]

Too late - I'm hurt, possibly irreparably. I'm off to drown my sorrows in a bottle of cheap wine.

I just hope my warm, salty tears don't ruin the acrid, vinegary flavors.

Well I believe we have two different tacks here.

There are complex flavors and there are complex cigars. Complex flavors are obviously flavors that havet depth and dimension.

Complex cigars are cigars that change and show changes in flavors as you smoke them. Otherwise they might have complex flavors but that flavor is one dimensional. In its' complexity.

Nuff said.

[Tampa1257]

Colt, I get your point, I love when a cigar changes flavors from the start where It's herbal and

floral to the center where It gets earthyness and animal then ,at the end, where it picks up chocolate,

nuttyness with hints of dark coffee etc etc That is what I would call complexity, It changes, It

evolves, It does not stay put. Even with great taste, to me It would be one dimensional.

Exactly!!!

[WYPirate]

everybody, IMHO, has validity in their posts. As we are each blessed with our own interpretations. To very loosely quote Charles Dunn

It is perhaps best to think of COMPLEXITY as an effect instead of a physical attribute. It is not simply a tangible aspect, but rather an elusive quality that captivates one’s attention.

Mr. Dunn was of course speaking on the subject of wine, but the same can apply to many things. Colt, I totally know where you're coming from with the "one-dimensional" aspect. I have several in my humi right now. They're nice, but they're my "yard-gars". Something to mill about in my craw whilst I toil away with the mundane. The 180 to these are the smokes I make time for.

To me, "flavor" is what I detect when I'm experiencing something with the senses, and complexity is what culminates from the sum of the parts, usually when multiple flavors come together at any given moment. Por ejemplo, "The first third burst with coffee, stone fruit, and notes of roasted nuts with a touch of cedar." To me, that's complexity, and possibly exciting. Makes me dig around in my flavor file cabinet to put that together, makes me think about the experience (I can see where the "Zen" of smoking a cigar can be sometimes preferable). Flavor to me, is "I taste this". On its own, flavor could be dull, boring, and underpresent . Together, they contribute to make things....complex, giving depth..... Depth, that's a whole 'nuther thread. $.02

Going off that, if I'm going to be doing something "mindless" I'll smoke something with flavor. If I'm going to do something contemplative, and patient, I'll go for complexity.

".......be obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant...."

[Colt45]

Por ejemplo, "The first third burst with coffee, stone fruit, and notes of roasted nuts with a touch of cedar." To me, that's complexity, and possibly exciting.

Just to clarify, I agree that there is no right or wrong here, and that these kind of things can be looked at from varying perspectives,

and that there is usually some overlap / gray areas.

And Rob, as much as I hate to say this publicly, I was just hassling Ken. I don't do it often, and I wouldn't want anyone thinking I

was having a whinge - I don't take myself that seriously

Back to the above quote, WyP, I think I would also consider that scenario complex. But simply to further the conversation, if the

cigar maintained that profile and did not change over it's duration, would we consider it a complex cigar?

(again, I'm not being argumentative, nor do I disagree with any of the opinions)

[WYPirate]

But simply to further the conversation, if the

cigar maintained that profile and did not change over it's duration, would we consider it a complex cigar?

(again, I'm not being argumentative, nor do I disagree with any of the opinions)

No, no, I think this type of conversation is healthy. Just wish we could all be at a big table doing it.

Sure, your example, with multiple layers of flavor that were consistent through the duration of the smoke, I would consider complex. That said, I may not find it as interesting as a cigar that was "layer cake" of complexity.

[Guest rob]

I really think most of us are actually in agreement here. Changing flavours, flavour evolution... a flavour that does not stay put - is basically what I described in first post as "flavour complexity".

I don't value one over the other. I value the two together.

[Mr Peales]

...a flavour that does not stay put...

Nice way of describing it Rob. I like cigars in which I can detect multiple flavors within a single pull. And then if the flavors evolve over the course of the smoking, from beginning to end, so much the better. I have had cigars in which this occurs but the flavors might not be very intense. The cigar becomes a tease. Leading you on with all of these flavors that you can hardly discern. No bomb, no richness, just subtleties. These cigars sometimes leave me wanting more. I really need to pay attention with these to get the most out of them.

A cigar that is big on a monolithic flavor is ok at times. But these can become tiresome if the flavor isn't precisely to my liking.

[Ken Gargett]

WOW!!!

I have always thought the Trinidad Fundadore one of the most complex Habanos that I have ever smoked. Each to their own enjoyment.

tampa

i know a lot of people love these but i have never had one that really excited me at all or that i would have described as especially complex. i guess some people have better luck with some cigars than others. this is one that has never done it for me. i wish it would as have heard so much.

[Ken Gargett]

I know this type of topic is not on the same level as illegal drag racing or posting pictures of Smithy as the missing link, but I

thought I'd throw it out there just the same.

In my mind, complexity is the changing of flavor(s) over the course of the smoke. So imagine a Montecristo A. It has a nice

flavor of coffee with some cream. It never changes - not over the whole nine inches. So to me it would lack complexity.

In this case, would you enjoy it, or might you find yourself a little bored?

I do realize that in many cases, there is an interplay between the two. I will try and do better next time.

i think i am following better now as i read the posts - i don't think we are far apart. for me, complexity is one aspect of flavour, albeit a critical one (and possibly an aspect of structure as well).

if i am not off track, another way of putting this is do you prefer complex cigars or those not so complex - nothing wrong with the latter, though i am firmly in the complex camp. others prefer the more blockbuster style (i think we have, in the less complex camp, those that like a blast of flavour and those that like their flavours more muted). let me know if i am off track.

and colt, may i point out, re the slur of smithy as missing link that i am assured by those i trust without question (no names but lisa would be close) that it was in fact you who created that post. shame! i was merely a messenger.

[Colt45]

and colt, may i point out, re the slur of smithy as missing link that i am assured by those i trust without question (no names but lisa would be close) that it was in fact you who created that post. shame! i was merely a messenger.

Foul wanker........

Again, this is but a conversation amongst friends (and Ken).

[Ken Gargett]

Foul wanker........

Again, this is but a conversation amongst friends (and Ken).

yet another innocent messenger, caught in the crosshairs of evil...