Question? is it possible to get consensus on the top two premier CC brands (decade by decade) over the last 120yrs

[99call]

I wonder if (with the collective knowledge base on FOH) whether is would be possible to get consensus on the top two premier CC Brands (decade by decade) over the last 120 yrs???    This is not 'your' favourite brand etc. it's what the market audience (at the time) would have accepted as fact the two top dogs  For example.......

2010 - 2020 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Trinidad

2000 - 2010 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Trinidad

1990 - 2000 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Trinidad

1980 - 1990 =.    1st Dunhill &  2nd Davidoff     ????

1970 - 1980 =     1st Dunhill &  2nd Davidoff     ????

1960 - 1970 =     1st Dunhill &  2nd Cohiba       ????

1950 - 1960 =     Belinda ? Upmann? Cabanas Y Carbajal?   ????

1940 - 1950 =      ????

1930 - 1940 =      ????

1920 - 1930 =.     ????   Santa Damiana?   La Corona ?

1910 - 1920 =      ????

1900 - 1910 =      ????   La Corona?   Aguila D'Oro?  (Henry Clay)

 

 

[CaptainQuintero]

  I'm not sure I could nail down each decade but I'd say RyJ has to be there for a good dozen, probably more?

  It depends what we're talking about in terms of top brands. Top in terms of brand recognition I'd say RyJ would be one of, if any, the average member of public would say is a cigar brand. Even amongst cigar smokers you'd have to put it as up there most of the time, the damage post millennium hurt it massively and it's never recovered that prestige but still..

  With taste being subjective it changes a lot but prior to the millennium the quality of RyJ (probably specifically the Churchill) would be what most people would consider to be a top cigar? Certainly if you're talking Cuban top dog? 

 Maybe that's the image strength of the RyJ Churchill doing the heavy lifting though, take that away and you've lost what I'd argue is the image of RyJ?

[99call]

10 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

I'm not sure I could nail down each decade but I'd say RyJ has to be there for a good dozen, probably more?

  It depends what we're talking about in terms of top brands

Interesting. I wouldn't consider R&J to be in the front running in any decade.

To clarify. It's what were the most expensive, premium brands. One would hope that also meant quality, but as we know that's not always the case with CCs.

[zeedubbya]

Would say more recently (since 1990) it’s been Cohiba and Montecristo by a LONG ways, with all other Marcas being behind.  I like your thoughts on Trinidad and understand the reasoning, but with such a small amount of offerings since release, I wouldn’t put it in the same breath personally. 10 total releases in last 30 years with 5 being since 2017?  

[99call]

9 hours ago, zeedubbya said:

 I like your thoughts on Trinidad and understand the reasoning, but with such a small amount of offerings since release, I wouldn’t put it in the same breath personally. 10 total releases in last 30 years with 5 being since 2017?  

Sorry to clarify. I'm not taking breadth of offering into consideration. For example if 25 marcas were offering coronas, which would be the two most expensive coronas?

I find R&J is a perfect example. i.e. they have one of the largest portfolios but to me there is a lot of dead wood, and it doesn't speak to quality. 

I'm looking for the top of the tree in terms of expense and quality. For example Santa Damiana appears to have to have had a purple patch in history with only a hand full of cigars.

[99call]

If people want to copy and paste there list, that would be really interesting...

2010 - 2020 =     

2000 - 2010 =    

1990 - 2000 =     

1980 - 1990 =.   

1970 - 1980 =    

1960 - 1970 =     

1950 - 1960 =    

1940 - 1950 =     

1930 - 1940 =      

1920 - 1930 =.    

1910 - 1920 =     

1900 - 1910 =

[NSXCIGAR]

In the 90s it was Cohiba and Monte. Trini wasn't even a blip on the radar until 2000. When it arrived in 1997 most people had no idea what it was and the only model was a long skinny that was quickly falling out of favor. 

I'm also aware that ERDM was held in very high regard in the 1920s-1940s and would probably put that brand right up there at that time. HU might be fairly high up in that period. In the 40s-50s I think RyJ really started to pick up some steam and might have been near the top. I believe Por Larranaga was at its commercial peak in the 1900-1920 period as well. 

[Fugu]

Interesting approach. But a true “consensus”, as you say, I guess will be difficult to come up with since historically, for the most part, there hasn’t been a homogeneous market in a way we see it today. Even in modern times (post-rev), there have been quite large differences between countries or regions (e.g. Spain, France, UK, rest of Europe, Asia-Pacific etc.), with preferred brands, and even not everything had been available in every market.

Just a few (unsorted) thoughts added:

- From its launch in 1982, sure, it will have been Cohiba (slowly sinking in). Eventually gaining momentum early 90s with Davidoff leaving and the launch of the Siglo series. Before that, post-war, it had been Montecristo, certain Dunhill and Davidoff. Romeo y Julieta had never been considered “premium”, though highly popular in the heyday of Pepin Rodriguez.

- Montecristo had been “a thing” in New York in the 40s, when Dunhill was exclusive importer there and in England (London). Still, post-revolution, long been considered THE premium brand out of Cuba for much of the 1970s and 80s, at least in Europe, if not globally (where available).

- El Rey del Mundo had been launched as a premium right from its beginning. Had been the most expensive brand in the 1940s and 50s.

- Por Larranaga been regarded highly right from its start (1834) and considered the top of the tops for much of the early 20th century. Still regarded as premium even post-revolution, in particular in the 60-70s, before the big switch to machine-mades and tripa corta was made…(perfect example of a brand that had almost been killed due to bad marketing decisions)

- Fonseca been big in Spain in the outgoing 19th century. Had been one of the most luxurious brands, with intricate packaging, single cigars as well as boxes and luxury humidors.

- H Upmann had been big, held in high esteem by smokers around turn of the last century (about 1880-1915)

- Ramon Allones and Saint Luis Rey for a longer period been exclusive to England (most of the 1930s/40s/50s, for SLR even for most of the 1980s). And at least SLR had been considered pretty exclusive (not sure about pricing and "premium", but numbers were quite limited) with connoisseurs back then.

- To add: Martínez Rius reports on Castañeda as having been highly regarded in the Asia-Pacific region in the early 20th century. He mentions others specifically for eastern Europe and Russia.

Therefore, much of that really depends a lot on time and locale. Different brands had their specific markets and so, different brands were looked upon differently, the more as you go back in history. Not sure one will be able to come up with a list as concise as you have in mind in the above.

[99call]

3 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

In the 90s it was Cohiba and Monte. Trini wasn't even a blip on the radar until 2000. When it arrived in 1997 most people had no idea what it was and the only model was a long skinny that was quickly falling out of favor. 

I'm also aware that ERDM was held in very high regard in the 1920s-1940s and would probably put that brand right up there at that time. HU might be fairly high up in that period. In the 40s-50s I think RyJ really started to pick up some steam and might have been near the top. I believe Por Larranaga was at its commercial peak in the 1900-1920 period as well. 

Would agree in retrospect re on Montes in the 90s 

I thought EDRM and Por Larranaga were at their height just before 1900? Cross-referenced post 1900 they seem to be cheaper than other brands.

3 hours ago, Fugu said:

El Rey del Mundo had been launched as a premium right from its beginning. Had been the most expensive brand in the 1940s and 50s

Is this a MRN bit of info. Could I ask what your source is?

[99call]

Updated

2010 - 2020 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Trinidad

2000 - 2010 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Trinidad

1990 - 2000 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Montecristo

1980 - 1990 =.    1st Dunhill &  2nd Davidoff     ????

1970 - 1980 =     1st Dunhill &  2nd Davidoff     ????

1960 - 1970 =     1st Dunhill &  2nd Cohiba       ????

1950 - 1960 =     Dunhill? Belinda ? Upmann? Cabanas Y Carbajal?   ????

1940 - 1950 =    El Rey Del Mundo  ????

1930 - 1940 =      ????

1920 - 1930 =.     ????   Santa Damiana?   La Corona ?

1910 - 1920 =      ????

1900 - 1910 =      ????   La Corona?   Aguila D'Oro?  (Henry Clay)

 

[Fugu]

21 hours ago, 99call said:

Is this a MRN bit of info. Could I ask what your source is?

Different sources where you find that "most expensive" bit for ERDM. I guess that's taken from ADC or Bati. I'll check that for you.

Edit: That you find in Anwer Bati's cigar book (Celebrating Cigars), but there's similar statements along those lines in various publications.

21 hours ago, 99call said:

1960 - 1970 =     1st Dunhill &  2nd Cohiba       ????

Cohiba had not yet been commercially launched then (1982).

[99call]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

Cohiba had not yet been commercially launched then (1982).

Yep. What's your thoughts on second spot? Upmann? Montecristo?

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, 99call said:

Yep. What's your thoughts on second spot?

As I said, depending a bit on markets, but most certainly Montecristo taking a top spot (think Monte A, launched in 1971). Por Larrañaga Magnum being discontinued in 1970...also playing in a high league back then, but much less famous and less widely available. So, it's certainly a matter of perspective.

Perhaps also to consider the Hoyo de Monterrey Chateaux-line for Davidoff.

[99call]

3 hours ago, Fugu said:

Montecristo had been “a thing” in New York in the 40s, when Dunhill was exclusive importer there and in England (London). Still, post-revolution, long been considered THE premium brand out of Cuba for much of the 1970s and 80s, at least in Europe, if not globally (where available).

Would agree with you on the differing markets thing. Having seen lots of US intended Dunhill paper adverts for Montecristo, I can see why it's perceived as being a cut above there. I wouldn't say that impression is shared here in the UK or Europe.

[99call]

Update

2010 - 2020 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Trinidad

2000 - 2010 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Trinidad

1990 - 2000 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Montecristo

1980 - 1990 =.    1st Dunhill &  2nd Davidoff     

1970 - 1980 =     1st Dunhill &  2nd Davidoff     

1960 - 1970 =     1st Dunhill &  2nd Montecristo       

1950 - 1960 =     Dunhill? Belinda ? Upmann? Cabanas Y Carbajal?   ????

1940 - 1950 =    El Rey Del Mundo  ????

1930 - 1940 =      ????

1920 - 1930 =.     ????   Santa Damiana?   Henry Clay?

1910 - 1920 =      ????

1900 - 1910 =      ????   El Sol??  Aguila D'Oro?  (Henry Clay)

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, 99call said:

Would agree with you on the differing markets thing. Having seen lots of US intended Dunhill paper adverts for Montecristo, I can see why it's perceived as being a cut above there.   I wouldn't say that impression is shared here in the UK or Europe

Well, certainly depends on the period we are talking of. Dunhill had its pretty exclusive 'Montecristo Dunhill Selección Suprema' range of cigars (UK).

[NSXCIGAR]

If you're solely going off price Don Candido might have been more expensive than the standard Dunhill line. I believe it was marketed as a super premium Dunhill brand. 

[chasy]

Dude you guys know so much about Cuban cigars.

[JohnS]

This is one of those rare threads whereby through collective investigation, we can all benefit through shared knowledge. Thank you, @99call. I want to get @ATGroom's thought on the brand notes for the Rafael Gonzalez page on Cuban Cigar Website. In a nutshell, yes...El Rey del Mundo was considered the 'Cohiba' of its day in the 1940s and 50s; however, I wonder if Rafael Gonzalez was also considered a high-end product around that time, pre-Revolution? 

And was El Rey del Mundo and Rafael Gonzalez considered sister brands after re-launch in the 60's, or when they were co-owned soon after the late 30s?

[Ford2112]

I will be watching this one closely

 

[GP012]

3 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

If you're solely going off price Don Candido might have been more expensive than the standard Dunhill line. I believe it was marketed as a super premium Dunhill brand. 

Don Candido was certainly around the longest (est 1935 through 1982) but I'm not sure if it was ever in direct competition with the standard Dunhill line as they didn't overlap aside from perhaps 1982/1983.

There's a short Cigarsense podcast with Alex Iapichino on Dunhill that's worth a listen: https://www.cigarsense.com/the-history-of-the-dunhill-cuban-cigars/

CCW has a 1959 Dunhill catalog with pricing (https://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/image/gallery/dunhill1959) and a 1969 Tabac Rhein price list from an earlier thread is linked below.

Don Candido doesn't seem to be much higher in comparison to other marcas but I can't locate a "standard" Dunhill price list 1982-1991 to compare against.

 

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, JohnS said:

I wonder if Rafael Gonzalez was also considered a high-end product around that time, pre-Revolution?

I believe it may have been the premiere brand in England but I'm not sure how popular the brand was elsewhere. I doubt the brand would have disappeared in 1960 if it was an "important" brand for Cuba. I wouldn't be suprised if H & F requested the brand be reinistated after a few years resulting in the 1965 relaunch. If I recall correctly even after the relaunch RG didn't really have a large presence outside the UK until at least the 1980s. HK being British is probably the reason that MRN seems very familar with the brand as opposed to PL which he openly says he's not that familar with. Even into the 1990s many brands were still quite unknown in many regions of the world. 

12 minutes ago, GP012 said:

Don Candido was certainly around the longest (est 1935 through 1982) but I'm not sure if it was ever in direct competition with the standard Dunhill line as they didn't overlap aside from perhaps 1982/1983.

Yes, you're right--I was thrown off by @99call using "Dunhill" which wasn't its own brand until 82. Technically should be Don Candido or I guess it gets complicated with the Dunhill Selections of standard production. Was Dunhill Monte considered superior even to Don Candido/Don Alfredo/Flor del Punto?

[ATGroom]

5 hours ago, Fugu said:

But a true “consensus”, as you say, I guess will be difficult to come up with since historically, for the most part, there hasn’t been a homogeneous market in a way we see it today. Even in modern times (post-rev), there have been quite large differences between countries or regions (e.g. Spain, France, UK, rest of Europe, Asia-Pacific etc.), with preferred brands, and even not everything had been available in every market.

I would second this.

Pre-rev you have the big factories all making a dozen or so brands and selling them to vendors all over the world. I would say probably all of them had a "premium" brand and the price point was probably about equal between them.

What was considered to be the "best" or "most expensive" would vary from region to region depending on which factories was exporting there.

It seems to have dropped off in more recent iterations of your list, but La Corona I think has a case for 1890-1931.

Also, while maybe not in the eyes of the consumer or reflected in their sales numbers, I'd say between 1996 and 2004 that Cuaba outranked Trinidad, at least as far as Habanos was concerned.

[CaptainQuintero]

5 hours ago, ATGroom said:

I would second this.

Pre-rev you have the big factories all making a dozen or so brands and selling them to vendors all over the world. I would say probably all of them had a "premium" brand and the price point was probably about equal between them.

What was considered to be the "best" or "most expensive" would vary from region to region depending on which factories was exporting there.

It seems to have dropped off in more recent iterations of your list, but La Corona I think has a case for 1890-1931.

Also, while maybe not in the eyes of the consumer or reflected in their sales numbers, I'd say between 1996 and 2004 that Cuaba outranked Trinidad, at least as far as Habanos was concerned.

  I was just coming in to note that the La Corona Corona must have had significant influence for at least a decade, purely for that popularity to spread also?

[99call]

6 hours ago, ATGroom said:

It seems to have dropped off in more recent iterations of your list, but La Corona I think has a case for 1890-1931.

 

31 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

I was just coming in to note that the La Corona Corona must have had significant influence for at least a decade, purely for that popularity to spread also?

I had removed La Corona temporarily, as I wanted to double check its dates when it became a more utilitarian UK cigar,  which seems to be 1932 onwards

Update

2010 - 2020 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Trinidad

2000 - 2010 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Trinidad

1990 - 2000 =     1st Cohiba &  2nd Montecristo

1980 - 1990 =.    1st Dunhill &  2nd Davidoff     

1970 - 1980 =     1st Dunhill &  2nd Davidoff     

1960 - 1970 =     1st Dunhill &  2nd Montecristo       

1950 - 1960 =     1st Don Candido (Dunhill). 2nd El Rey Del Mundo

1940 - 1950 =      El Rey Del Mundo??? Belinda ????

1930 - 1940 =      ????

1920 - 1930 =.     Santa Damiana?  Henry Clay, La Corona?

1910 - 1920 =      La Corona, Henry Clay ?

1900 - 1910 =      El Sol?? La Corona  Aguila D'Oro?