Finding RH sweet spot ain’t easy - Tunneling problem

[Uwiik]

I have been experimenting with RH setting lately. Initially I set my temp at 17C with RH 62-64 with this setting I experienced a lot of burn problem, tight draw, etc. I then experienced a “voila” moment a few days after I upped the temp to 20C and further drop the RH to 60-62. However, that “voila” moment quickly turned to a “what the heck” moment after a few more days on the said lower RH higher temp setting, I experienced a lot of tunneling on a known good box, a Reyes and an Esmeralda. I guess the upping of the temp contributed a lot to the drying of the core of the cigar which in turn made the outer filler much wetter than the core upon smoking on an open and wetter air thus causing the tunneling problem. Now I am playing again with the setting to find a sweet spot between my initial setting and my latest setting, so I setup my humidor slightly cooler to 19C and upped the RH slightly to 62-64. Am I on the right track or am I shooting in the dark? 

[moryc]

This is what works for me. I age my cigars at 65/65 but smoke cigars at 65%/70f. I always had problems with smoking cigars right out of the 65/65 and 65/70 is my sweet spot for smoking cigars. After reading numerous posts watching videos posted by @PigFish, I believe I have an understanding. A cigar at 65/65 is wetter cigar than cigar that's at 65/70 although it is the same RH. The moisture content increases as the temperature decrease and as the temperature increases the moisture content decreases. Essentially if you left a cigar outside in 100% humidity and 100f the cigar would still dry out eventually.  

I hope this helps and I hope that I have the correct understanding. If I do not, I would love to hear an explanation.

[Uwiik]

5 hours ago, moryc said:

This is what works for me. I age my cigars at 65/65 but smoke cigars at 65%/70f. I always had problems with smoking cigars right out of the 65/65 and 65/70 is my sweet spot for smoking cigars. After reading numerous posts watching videos posted by @PigFish, I believe I have an understanding. A cigar at 65/65 is wetter cigar than cigar that's at 65/70 although it is the same RH. The moisture content increases as the temperature decrease and as the temperature increases the moisture content decreases. Essentially if you left a cigar outside in 100% humidity and 100f the cigar would still dry out eventually.  

I hope this helps and I hope that I have the correct understanding. If I do not, I would love to hear an explanation.

Your explanations makes a lot of sense, I’ll give it a try in a few days. Thanks a bunch.

[BrightonCorgi]

I doubt the tunneling is strictly due to RH. Changing RH does not effect so quickly like changing the temps on a oven.

[Uwiik]

I have my doubt, but the coincidence was just too much. I have been smoking my Trinis from the same batch with zero complaints whatsoever and suddenly an Esmeralda and a Vigia both had the exact same problem. 

[BrightonCorgi]

Without having anything scientific to back this up...  I would associate the tunneling to the wrapper being hydroscopic and just needs aging to fix it.

[MrBirdman]

4 hours ago, moryc said:

This is what works for me.  I age my cigars at 65/65 but smoke cigars at 65%/70f.  I always had problems with smoking cigars right out of the 65/65 and 65/70 is my sweet spot for smoking cigars.  After reading numerous posts watching videos posted by @PigFish, I believe I have an understanding.  A cigar at 65/65 is wetter cigar than cigar that's at 65/70 although it is the same RH.  The moisture content increases as the temperature decrease and as the temperature increases the moisture content decreases.  Essentially if you left a cigar outside in 100% humidity and 100f the cigar would still dry out eventually.  

I hope this helps and I hope that I have the correct understanding.  If I do not, I would love to hear an explanation

It’s the opposite actually - warm air holds more water than cooler, so at the same RH a higher temp will have more water (ie moisture) than lower temp air. 

[SCgarman]

52 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Without having anything scientific to back this up...  I would associate the tunneling to the wrapper being hydroscopic and just needs aging to fix it.

Or perhaps a poorly constructed cigar. 

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, Uwiik said:

I upped the temp to 20C and further drop the RH to 60-62.

That's a pretty dry ambient condition. As temp rises moisture loss increases and rH must rise to compensate. At 60-62 rH I would probably try to keep my temps below 18C or 64F. At your temp of 20C/68F I would be keeping my rH right around 65%. 

6 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I doubt the tunneling is strictly due to RH. Changing RH does not effect so quickly like changing the temps on a oven.

I would have to agree here. I can't ever recall rH changes resulting in such behavior from a cigar so suddenly. 

[Uwiik]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:42 AM, MrBirdman said:

It’s the opposite actually - warm air holds more water than cooler, so at the same RH a higher temp will have more water (ie moisture) than lower temp air. 

Ok this is starting to get confusing… I used to assume the same but multiple posts and explanations from @PigFish changed my understanding and I tend to agree with him. 

[NSXCIGAR]

On 11/10/2023 at 10:42 AM, MrBirdman said:

It’s the opposite actually - warm air holds more water than cooler, so at the same RH a higher temp will have more water (ie moisture) than lower temp air. 

Would it be more accurate to say warm air can hold more water but cold air and warm air could also have the same moisture content? You'd still need to actively add the moisture to the warm air for absorption.

[Uwiik]

I got blisters on my lower inner lip from smoking Esmeralda and Reyes with tunneling problem…Should’ve just throw those two away, but at $50-70 a stick I chose to burn my lip 😱😱😱 not fun at all…😂😂😂

[MrBirdman]

3 hours ago, Uwiik said:

Ok this is starting to get confusing… I used to assume the same but multiple posts and explanations from @PigFish changed my understanding and I tend to agree with him. 

 

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Would it be more accurate to say warm air can hold more water but cold air and warm air could also have the same moisture content? You'd still need to actively add the moisture to the warm air for absorption.

Yeah so let’s be clear - warm air can hold a greater total amount of moisture than cooler air. If you have a set, unchanging amount of moisture in the air, then the RH will go up as temps decrease and down as temps increase. That’s why RH is relative.

Ultimately the easiest way to quantify the moisture in the air is by calculating the dew point (you can google a calculator). Higher dew point = more moisture and vice versa. That’s why the “mugginess” of hot weather is best measured by dew point and not just RH, which will decrease over the day as temps get hotter, even though the absolute humidity (ie moisture in the air) hasn’t changed and it feels just as muggy. I completely ignore the humidity in summer forecasts and look only at the dew point.

Think of the higher temp as a bigger cup and the RH as the percent it is filled. Therefore 65f/70% is drier than 70f/70% because 65f holds less water at 70% full than 70f does. 

[Adisaputra]

I’m curious with the relationship between Rh, temperature, absolute humidity, dew point, and vapor-pressure deficit in relation to the percent moisture content of the cigar. Would be happy to get the scientific explanation about this issue 😄

[Uwiik]

Now it is getting even more confusing, maybe I am just not as smart as I would like to think about myself. So, which one is true?

A. As temperature rise actual humidity inside the cigar will decrease even if the ambient air RH reading is the same.

B. As temperature rise actual humidity inside the cigar will increase even if the ambient air RH reading is the same. 
 

I think after this I will need to rest my feeble brain.

[Adisaputra]

Considering the rH is constant, increased temperature will decrease the percent moisture content in the cigar, hence the cigar became drier. So A it is. 

[Uwiik]

I don’t normally read articles from a commercial website because usually it is full of BS but this site is a good read

https://www.famous-smoke.com/cigaradvisor/the-70-70-myth-why-a-lower-rh-is-often-better-for-your-cigars

 

On 11/11/2023 at 1:25 AM, BrightonCorgi said:

I doubt the tunneling is strictly due to RH. Changing RH does not effect so quickly like changing the temps on a oven.

Nothing scientific to back this up but unless my taste buds are dead I can definitely tell a lot of difference in flavor after a few days of RH/Temp change. My 1926-80th Anniversary Padron tasted like heaven on November 8th with 62-63 RH and 17C setup, now on November 12th the next stick from the same box tasting like burnt grass after I upped the temperature to 19-20C and dropped RH to 60-62. I think I will have to stop chasing my own tail and go back to my last known setup. This tail chasing game is not fun at all and really took away my cigar enjoyment, I spent the whole Sunday being grumpy as heck. @PigFish summed it up the best, despite all the valid theories about RH and temp correlation, ultimately I will need to rely on my own taste buds, that’s why I noticed on a lot of his posts that he never ever gave an advice on specific RH/Temp to follow. Granted I had burn problems but at least my taste buds was dancing with the previous setup. 

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, Uwiik said:

Nothing scientific to back this up but unless my taste buds are dead I can definitely tell a lot of difference in flavor after a few days of RH/Temp change.

I comment was on the tunneling part; not the flavor.  If the cigar is hyrdoscopic, it something that just takes time for the cigar to get past. 

[MrBirdman]

12 hours ago, Uwiik said:

Now it is getting even more confusing, maybe I am just not as smart as I would like to think about myself. So, which one is true?

A. As temperature rise actual humidity inside the cigar will decrease even if the ambient air RH reading is the same.

B. As temperature rise actual humidity inside the cigar will increase even if the ambient air RH reading is the same. 
 

I think after this I will need to rest my feeble brain.

B

[vladdraq]

Depends on the cigar thickness also, if you want to go down on the thermodynamic  laws to explain why, it would be a long, complicated story. Equilibrium  is the key word. Thicker the cigar longer the path is to reach that.  

Try a cold draw test before lighting the cigar up, if you feel resistance let it sit/dry box it for a couple of days . Construction can be also a factor, volado burns way faster than ligero .

 

[Uwiik]

4 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I comment was on the tunneling part; not the flavor.  If the cigar is hyrdoscopic, it something that just takes time for the cigar to get past. 

Gotcha!

3 hours ago, vladdraq said:

Depends on the cigar thickness also, if you want to go down on the thermodynamic  laws to explain why, it would be a long, complicated story. Equilibrium  is the key word. Thicker the cigar longer the path is to reach that.  

Try a cold draw test before lighting the cigar up, if you feel resistance let it sit/dry box it for a couple of days . Construction can be also a factor, volado burns way faster than ligero.

My main concern right now is getting back my flavor, going back to where I begin and we’ll see. 

[PigFish]

Let's clear up a few things, shall we? Some of my brothers here are sliding back to the old 'faith' and failing at science. ... And for the record, the science has nothing to do with faith, tastes and misinterpreted anecdotes. Science has everything to do with cigar storage and getting the best from your cigars. That previous sentence is my 'brief.' Take it for what it is worth to you! 

Always follow your own tastes, not mine... but understand the science and place blame where it belongs.

Let's please set the record straight (once more) about the relationship between tobacco and water. The 'keen-eyed' will note that I did not mention air! That is because 'air' has little or nothing to do with it. Air, along with water provides temperature support. Water would exist in space regardless of the presence of air. Air does not bond with water, so please, lets not pretend that it does. Air does not 'hold' water. Water resides in space with air.

Comparing water in space with water in a cigar is the primary, major mistake that most smokers make. It was proudly put on display above in posts as fact as it has been done since cigar smokers sat around and discussed this topic for decades. THE MISTAKE STARTS BY COMPARING WATER IN SPACE TO WATER IN A CIGAR.

Water in space is not 'bonded' to anything, except possibly to other water. We call that point where water bonds to itself the dew point. That is when precipitation happens mates; that is rain for you regular folk. You folks understand rain right? Rain happens where the amount for free water in space, loses sufficient energy to stay free (that energy is heat, by the way) and the free water starts bonding to other free water and beings to fall from space due to the force of gravity.

We have learned something major here so don't miss it. Water needs energy (heat) to stay free. When its energy is lost (heat) it begins to find attractants more powerful than its ambient energy state. That bond, is the hygroscopic state.

Now there is a comparison to be made here, and it has nothing to do with the false logic of higher rH air carries more water and so then does the cigar. I have said it here a thousand times. Cigars are not space, and rH means nothing to a cigar alone without a heat component. This is true because cigars are hygroscopic. Cigars attract water! Cigars are a 'host' for water.

A change in rH in a constant temp will change the bonded water percentage (equilibrium moisture content) of your cigars. I think we all understand that as consistent with the 'street' logic regarding water and cigars. A change in temperature with a constant rH will also change the EMC of your cigars. That is contrary to 'street' logic, but equally true.

You need a very easy analogy here to get it right. Look a cigar as pot of bonded water, not water in air. Bonded water will stay as a liquid state based on two factors. The vapor pressure of the water above it (the pressure of free water in space) and the temperature.

What happens with you heat water? It evaporates faster... right? That is because you are energizing the water and breaking its bonds while allowing the vapor pressure of water above it to stay constant. Heat vs. pressure, it is that simple folks.

The cigar acts the very same way. Raise the rH (constant temperature) EMC increases. Raise the temperature (constant rH- vapor pressure of water above it) and it will lose water.

 

About the cigar problem above. This is anecdotal, and not the problem with taking roughly 1.5 rH at constant temperature of water away from the cigar storage pool. When cigars tunnel, they are frankly just made poorly. Welcome to the Cuban cigar!

You hand me your box of cigars and give me 5 minutes I will hand them back to you telling you which ones of the pool will be more prone to tunnel. Am I a cigar 'wunderkind,' no? I will do two things; feel them up and weigh them. The heaviest and firmest will likely smoke the best, and soft, light ones will likely be crap. If there are any firm, heavy cigars left in that box, grab it and you will likely find a good cigar again. If they are all mushy and light. Mate... you are screwed! Sorry!

the Pig!

 

 

 

 

[PigFish]

21 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

B

.... sorry mate. Dead wrong!

Hygroscopic material are often described by isothermal charts. These charts, taken at various temperature are then compared so that one can understand how heat affects the bonding of water in the hygroscopic substrate. If you do a little reading on catalysts/desiccants you can learn a lot on this topic.

You are giving bad advice! Sorry!

-Ray

[MrBirdman]

32 minutes ago, PigFish said:

.... sorry mate. Dead wrong!

Hygroscopic material are often described by isothermal charts. These charts, taken at various temperature are then compared so that one can understand how heat affects the bonding of water in the hygroscopic substrate. If you do a little reading on catalysts/desiccants you can learn a lot on this topic.

You are giving bad advice! Sorry!

-Ray

Well ok, I am not talking about cigars here I am talking about the AIR. I know nothing about hygroscopic materials. I’m sure there isn’t a directly linear relationship in the short term. But I’m sure it isn’t completely inverse either. In other words the answer definitely isn’t A in all cases, or even most. You can’t keep making cigars moister by making the air drier past a certain point. Just don’t buy it.

So generally I stick by my answer. Are there maybe some counterintuitive shifts in the area where most people keep cigars over short periods of time. Sure. Long run though an equilibrium will be reached, so B will still be correct.

The bottom line is that you should be experimenting with your setup to find what you like.

 

[PigFish]

8 minutes ago, Uwiik said:

My main concern right now is getting back my flavor, going back to where I begin and we’ll see. 

... mate. While you can ruin a cigar by storing it poorly, you cannot make a bad cigar a good one by storing it properly.

I am not being cute with words. I am telling you a fact about natural, handmade products judged by taste. You should also take a hard look at what you use for reporting your conditions... your thermometer/hygrometer. Some of these gadgets are way... way wrong.

Cheers!