Quality Fake

[PuroDiario]

A relative got the below box, “just in from Cuba”. Nothing we have not seen before. 
 

code spots Monte Supremos, stamps are off, etc. 

 

what’s your view on the cigars being a straight up fake vs skimmed off factory line vs any other permutation? 
 

I don’t want to ruin his joy, at the same time I want to help…
 

 

[nKostyan]

Unfortunately, this is a low-quality fake

[PuroDiario]

17 hours ago, nKostyan said:

Unfortunately, this is a low-quality fake

Thank you, and I know that. I guess I have not explained well regarding reading the post. I am looking as to how to explain to him that this is a fake. Because all the obvious things...he is not admitting to them. So not sure how to do it LOL

[Edicion]

Just point out these things, packaging, box code, cigars themselves, bands, website, nothing is real , that should be proof enough.

15 hours ago, PuroDiario said:

what’s your view on the cigars being a straight up fake vs skimmed off factory line vs any other permutation? 

Anyone not accepting proof/facts by justifying with some of the above "possibilities" can go ahead and smoke those cause they won't be able to tell the difference anyway. 

But at the same time, it's good to make them aware, in case they decide to resell as the real deal.

[Corylax18]

10 hours ago, PuroDiario said:

Thank you, and I know that. I guess I have not explained well re reading the post. I am looking on how to explain to him this is a fake. Because all the obvious things he is not admitting to them. So not sure how to do it LOL

The transit stamp sticking out behind the the tax seal is like a huge, waving red flag. I've only seen a handful of real boxes with any portion of the transit stamp showing. The font on the date/factory code is way off. CKM isn't a factory code. Why would there be a revisado stamp on a box that was rolled last month? How did a box make it all the way through the supply chain in less than a month? None of it adds up. The code doesn't come back to Sig Vi's. The Taino heads on the bands also don't look great. As others have said, these aren't high quality fakes at all. They may be better than glass tops from a Mexican beach, but they're pretty run of the mill. 

On 7/23/2023 at 6:24 AM, PuroDiario said:

what’s your view on the cigars being a straight up fake vs skimmed off factory line vs any other permutation? 

The people that skim cigars from the factory have customers that pay them handsomely (but obviously less than retail) for those cigars. Those people wouldn't waste profit selling these on to another faker. If you believe the seller saying they came from Cuba (I wouldn't) they could be real Cuban cigars, but made with low quality tobacco and god knows what else. 

[ATGroom]

20 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

The transit stamp sticking out behind the the tax seal is like a huge, waving red flag. I've only seen a handful of real boxes with any portion of the transit stamp showing.

Agree with all your other comments, and that the box is definitely fake, but the line about transit seals seems bizarre to me. In my experience a huge percentage of legitimate boxes have some portion of the transit seal showing. Maybe as high as 50%. It ranges from half a mm poking out to the seal being on the total opposite side of the box. Definitely wouldn't consider transit seal showing to be any indication of fake.

[Corylax18]

2 hours ago, ATGroom said:

Agree with all your other comments, and that the box is definitely fake, but the line about transit seals seems bizarre to me. In my experience a huge percentage of legitimate boxes have some portion of the transit seal showing. Maybe as high as 50%. It ranges from half a mm poking out to the seal being on the total opposite side of the box. Definitely wouldn't consider transit seal showing to be any indication of fake.

I'm sure you've looked at more boxes than I have. But I've looked at thousands, maybe multiple 10s of thousands of boxes over the years and this mistake is something that I've rarely seen. I have seen it on legit boxes, but very few. In line with many of the inconsistencies we see with Cuban cigars, but far from a regular occurrence. 

It seems to have become a very regular mistake on recent fakes though. Every single box in the thread below looks like this. That's a not a mistake/coincidence. That's intentional, like someone trying to "show their work".

Of the hundreds of boxes I've purchased (all from FOH or in Cuba) I only have one where the transit stamp is showing. So I know it happens, but I feel like its a very small % of legitimate boxes. 

 

[Chibearsv]

1 hour ago, Corylax18 said:

I'm sure you've looked at more boxes than I have. But I've looked at thousands, maybe multiple 10s of thousands of boxes over the years and this mistake is something that I've rarely seen. I have seen it on legit boxes, but very few. In line with many of the inconsistencies we see with Cuban cigars, but far from a regular occurrence. 

It seems to have become a very regular mistake on recent fakes though. Every single box in the thread below looks like this. That's a not a mistake/coincidence. That's intentional, like someone trying to "show their work".

This is interesting to me since I see quite a few boxes on BR with some portion of transit seals showing.  If this is truly a red flag, it's a biggie.

[Corylax18]

33 minutes ago, Chibearsv said:

This is interesting to me since I see quite a few boxes on BR with some portion of transit seals showing.  If this is truly a red flag, it's a biggie.

By itself, it doesn't mean a box is fake. There are real boxes with misaligned labels. But, if this issue is present, I'm triple checking everything else. That seal shouldn't be showing, it should be completely hidden by the guaranty seal. Cuba being Cuba means there are QC misses on nearly every aspect of real cigars, boxes, bands and labels. But when you see a whole group of boxes with all of the labels misaligned(like the other thread), or a seller who is regularly selling boxes with misaligned labels you should be very suspicious. 

[jfestrelabr]

"By itself, it doesn't mean a box is fake"

my 2 cents

[Silverstix]

I have seen dozens of boxes with the warranty seal and the tax seal misaligned.  Not a problem.  Cuba has consistency and QAQC issues.  Nothing new.  

But these are fake.  The warranty seal is a lighter colored green to me, the barcode you said checks out to the wrong box of cigars, the stamp on the bottom is a font that doesn't look legitimate, and the box overall just doesn't look right.  The capper is of course that these are Cohiba Sig VI.  Not many people faking Quinteros but Cohiba with all of those issues? Major red flags.  Also, good luck finding anything else with the factory code "CKM"

On another note - regarding the theory of cigars falling off the truck when they leave the factory - was that ever a real thing or was my wife's cousin's neighbor's son lying 😁

 

[PuroDiario]

We don’t need to discuss if they are fake. It is clear that is a fake ass box. as I said before, I framed the question unclearly. 
 

the issue is, that this relative is not open to accepting they are fake in principle. He claims if a fake is the highest quality of fakes, etc. 

 

I told him they are fake (I should have not probably), and now I need to be able to close the loop. Or maybe not really, who cares in reality no? 

[Arabian]

23 minutes ago, PuroDiario said:

We don’t need to discuss if they are fake. It is clear that is a fake ass box. as I said before, I framed the question unclearly. 
 

the issue is, that this relative is not open to accepting they are fake in principle. He claims if a fake is the highest quality of fakes, etc. 

 

I told him they are fake (I should have not probably), and now I need to be able to close the loop. Or maybe not really, who cares in reality no? 

some people esp in the Cigar community don't like other people pointing out the fakes they purchased/ smoked. psychological thing I guess.  

[ATGroom]

10 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

 I have seen it on legit boxes, but very few. In line with many of the inconsistencies we see with Cuban cigars, but far from a regular occurrence. 

It seems to have become a very regular mistake on recent fakes though. 

Like I said, it's just bizarre to me to hear that it's rare for you - it's not a question of seeing a lot of boxes. In my experience if you've seen ten Cuban boxes you've almost certainly seen more than one with the transit partially visible.

I did a survey of my image gallery just to confirm. I used the Romeo y Julieta brand because it's a big brand and I have photos of every SKU, so good range from budget cigars to super-premium (Linea Oro). These came from a wide range or sources including reputable grey market and Habanos Specialist B&Ms and LCDHs in Europe, Australia, and Cuba, mainly purchased in the last 3 years.

My result was 13 boxes with some part of the transit showing vs 28 without it.

I do agree with you that almost every fake seems to show the transit. I think this is deliberate, actually. The transit being present under the warranty is a known thing to look for in every "how to spot a fake" guide, so the fakers leave it exposed to show off their attention to detail. In my survey I was counting any portion of the seal being visible. On most fakes about half the seal is visible. Of the 13 only 4 had enough visible that the word Transitorio was fully exposed.

So I agree that it may be a weak signal that there should be further inspection.

Another thing I will note on the box at the start of this thread - the transit seal is actually on upside down compared to legit boxes. The transitorio should be on the other side, at compared to this limited survey, although I doubt it's something that a lot of attention is paid to at the factories.

[vladdraq]

beside the taste, which is a dead giveaway, but to late in this case (and also implies knowledge) i find very eyeopening the way the genuine Cohiba bands are flurescences under UV light compared to even very high quality fake bands which are kinda dull. The difference is striking. If ever you do the test the 365nm UV flashlight does a better job than the 395nm, worth the extra penny imo.

[Corylax18]

22 hours ago, ATGroom said:

mainly purchased in the last 3 years.

This may be part of the issue. I have only purchased a handful of boxes in the last few years. The only one I have with the transit stamp showing is a SUL MAR 22 box. But I was going through my photos of the LCDH shelves from my trip to Cuba in February of this year and I couldn't find a single box that obviously had the transit seals poking out. I guess it just luck of the draw? 

22 hours ago, ATGroom said:

Another thing I will note on the box at the start of this thread - the transit seal is actually on upside down compared to legit boxes

Like this?

Ignore the stack of Pesos sitting on top. That's how many pesos it would have taken to purchase the box. 

[ATGroom]

5 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

This may be part of the issue. I have only purchased a handful of boxes in the last few years. The only one I have with the transit stamp showing is a SUL MAR 22 box. But I was going through my photos of the LCDH shelves from my trip to Cuba in February of this year and I couldn't find a single box that obviously had the transit seals poking out. I guess it just luck of the draw? 

Like this?

I did survey of my images of JLP boxes. I bought a tonne of JLP in the last year because I was trying to get all the cigars with the new bands, so almost all of my pictures are 22 or 23 boxes. They came up 11 with the transit showing, and 7 without. Most of the 7 were the older 25 boxes.

So anecdotally the idea that sloppy seal placement has increased considerably in the last few years, whether by design or accident, seems to hold water.

Of those where enough of the transit was visible to tell the orientation, it was always top of the seal oriented towards the left, as in your RG box and the opposite of that shown on the Siglo VI box.

[Fuzz]

7 hours ago, ATGroom said:

So anecdotally the idea that sloppy seal placement has increased considerably in the last few years, whether by design or accident, seems to hold water.

As counterfeiters are getting better and better at making their fakes looks real, real boxes are getting sloppier, It is HSA's new strategy to beat counterfeiters. Sloppy label placement is a sign of an authentic box from 2022 onwards. 🤣

[nKostyan]

On 7/25/2023 at 12:11 AM, Corylax18 said:

like someone trying to "show their work".

That's exactly what they do. I was acquainted with a Cuban forger, he received boxes and stickers from the Cuba separately. Each sticker costs him money, so he has to show that it is there - so it's easier for the buyer to believe in the originality of the box.

 

[NSXCIGAR]

On 7/24/2023 at 7:11 AM, Corylax18 said:

So I know it happens, but I feel like its a very small % of legitimate boxes. 

I'd have to concur with Alex on this one. I see it all the time. However I've only seen it on the left side of the warranty, not the right side as is the case with the OP box. 

I'll go through all my old boxes and see how many have a transit seal showing.