Vendor Supply Chains & Inherent Risks

[canadianbeaver]

Been a great read here and thanks for all the info and insight. Would like to contribute a couple of points.

Re the imprinting of improper/no code on boxes or lousy type on labels. So many times friends have tried to present me with Cuban cigars. In one minute I have thanked them but explained that they are fake for the most obvious reasons. At first they don’t believe me. Then they do believe when I show them a box with a code stamp on bottom and the details on the labels. They are sure they should be amazing anyway. So all these buyers make fake cigars worth it.

Next thing that occurs to me is my wonderful pride and appreciation with FOH. So many of the cigars in my collection come from here, even from way back in 2011 when it was called C.U.N.T.

Such joy! Packages from the C.U.N.T., or Cigar Underground Network Territory or something like that, sent to the Canadianbeaver.. Wow!

 

[Bigkahuna]

6 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I think this issue was isolated to Cohiba and specifically CoRo in this case. Basically, a tainted batch if you will. MF were trusted for a reason, i.e. I'm sure the Siglo I was fine. We're talking about $1200 CoRo so I'm not sure how many people bought that but we're probably talking double digits. A quarter of them probably couldn't tell a real from a fake anyway, another quarter probably put the boxes away. So you're looking at maybe a few dozen people who realized something was wrong. 

There were several hundred boxes in total sold. Coro, 6s, Espys and BHK.  Also similar styles of near perfect fakes have been turning up at other euro grey vendors. This is more than an isolated incident with a “few dozen”. This is thousands of cigars. This is only the beginning of the story. 

[LizardGizmo]

Wondering how so many people bought from MF and not one realized they are fakes after smoking one. Why? Are they so good? Or people don't know how a Cohiba should taste? I don't get it. 

The box that was examined was mine - arrived and looked good on initial inspection. Box was right, cigars looked good and I planned to not touch them for a few years. Saw a post on FB group about serial number not aligning with box date sourced from MF and that’s what started my inquiry. I did not smoke one.

They are very good fakes, as Dan detailed in his post.

[jakebarnes]

28 minutes ago, Bigkahuna said:

There were several hundred boxes in total sold. Coro, 6s, Espys and BHK.  Also similar styles of near perfect fakes have been turning up at other euro grey vendors. This is more than an isolated incident with a “few dozen”. This is thousands of cigars. This is only the beginning of the story. 

Yeah...this is a lot more than just a few dozen. Hundreds. And not just MF. And definitely not just CoRo. I think we are going to see even more in the Grey market soon and from places you don't expect. My "safe" list just shrunk considerably in the past few days. 

[NSXCIGAR]

40 minutes ago, Bigkahuna said:

There were several hundred boxes in total sold. Coro, 6s, Espys and BHK.  Also similar styles of near perfect fakes have been turning up at other euro grey vendors. This is more than an isolated incident with a “few dozen”. This is thousands of cigars. This is only the beginning of the story. 

I was only responding to a comment about why if so many people received these how could they not know. Even with hundreds a large percentage can't tell and a large percentage puts the boxes away. You're looking at probably double digit boxes that were actually smoked by people who can tell something's off that have a platform to address it. The problem ends up becoming very dispersed among people all over the world. 200 or 300 boxes really isn't that much spread all over the world shipped to people who may not even speak English. 

40 minutes ago, Bigkahuna said:

6s, Espys

Do we have confirmation of either these being faked? I think it's important to determine every model that is included in this.

On 9/29/2022 at 2:10 PM, Bijan said:

In Spain which is a market that to my undetstanding doesn't allow selling abroad (or possibly even online), I think it would be... So Tabacalera is out.

Just saw this in the Reddit thread:

They stated they got their product from Pacific Cigar Company (PCC).  We contacted Norio Hattori of PCC, and asked whether they sold to Montefortuna. They told us that PCC has NEVER sold anything to Montefortuna.

If accurate that would have been an absolute, bald-faced verifiable lie. There's no possible connection or relationship a Spanish/Swiss company would have with PCC. 

[Lamboinee]

6 hours ago, canadianbeaver said:

Been a great read here and thanks for all the info and insight. Would like to contribute a couple of points....

Next thing that occurs to me is my wonderful pride and appreciation with FOH.

 

Harumph Harumph Harumph. Newish here. But I totally agree.

[NSXCIGAR]

22 hours ago, Fugu said:

“By working only with official Habanos distributors, Montefortuna guarantee the authenticity of every cigar in their stock.”

So they're on record lying to the press which is effectively lying to the public. Obviously a relationship with Tabacalera or Intertabak would be easy to confirm as was done by Cigar Salute for PCC. Again, we can't know where anyone gets all their product but we can at least find out if they even get anything at all from a distributor.

Could it be that no one ever actually checked to see if this major vendor even has any distributor relationship? As far as I know every vendor that has a distributor relationship is listed on the HSA site. Rob is (as club czar/cigar czar). So MF should have been as well. No one noticed this? Wow.  

[ha_banos]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

So they're on record lying to the press which is effectively lying to the public. Obviously a relationship with Tabacalera or Intertabak would be easy to confirm as was done by Cigar Salute for PCC. Again, we can't know where anyone gets all their product but we can at least find out if they even get anything at all from a distributor.

Could it be that no one ever actually checked to see if this major vendor even has any distributor relationship? As far as I know every vendor that has a distributor relationship is listed on the HSA site. Rob is (as club czar/cigar czar). So MF should have been as well. No one noticed this? Wow.  

Yup. This is where I go. Straight to the horses mouth.

Even round here we occasionally see aged Spanish stock that PCC have sourced. So that's not direct from HSA. Never always straight forward.

[NSXCIGAR]

45 minutes ago, ha_banos said:

Yup. This is where I go. Straight to the horses mouth.

Even round here we occasionally see aged Spanish stock that PCC have sourced. So that's not direct from HSA. Never always straight forward.

Again, not that a vendor who has a distributor relationship isn't sourcing elsewhere but they didn't even bother to have that. And to go on record and not only claim they do but that 100% of their supply is directly distributor sourced is astonishing. Again, this is all assuming it can be confirmed that they are not clients of either Tabacalera or Intertabak. 

So to be taking the risk of sourcing product from third parties while lying about it and not authenticating it before shipping it is a sure fire method for destroying your business. At the very least they are stupid fools who aren't fit to sell Guantanameras. 

[Fugu]

6 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Just saw this in the Reddit thread:

They stated they got their product from Pacific Cigar Company (PCC).  We contacted Norio Hattori of PCC, and asked whether they sold to Montefortuna. They told us that PCC has NEVER sold anything to Montefortuna.

If accurate that would have been an absolute, bald-faced verifiable lie. There's no possible connection or relationship a Spanish/Swiss company would have with PCC.

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

but we can at least find out if they even get anything at all from a distributor.

Not that easy. This is difficult. Even if they did e.g. get stock from PCC (or other distributors), PCC could not openly admit it they sold to a vendor outside their own distribution area. That would be violating contract agreements with HSA.

National distributors may shift stock among each other, e.g. like PCC had done a lot recently with Tabacalera Spain. Such shifting between distribution regions is usually done with the approval of HSA, so as to move stock that would otherwise not move or only move slow in another market.

So, “officially”, a distributor is not eligible to sell stock directly to retailers outside their own distribution range. That’s also the reason why you often see those scratched off bar codes to disable tracing back, in order to protect the supplying distributor.

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

As far as I know every vendor that has a distributor relationship is listed on the HSA site.

If they had “officially”, they weren’t a grey market vendor anymore. That’s also most likely why they’re touting it while not openly stating it on their website...

[Bigkahuna]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I was only responding to a comment 

Do we have confirmation of either these being faked? I think it's important to determine every model that is included in this.

 

Coro and Sig 6 confirmed by MF. Espys and BHKs have been posted (with pics) on FB groups from other “related” euro greys. Same serial number flaws compared to box codes. As of now it looks like all of this batch have 2020 box codes and 000042 serials. All 4 of the above marques have been posted and confirmed. This is another lie by MF as it seems many different vitolas. Also, they continually have “weekly mega restocks” that sell out in a day. Again, this is just the start of it. “They”, whoever they are, will adapt and change. To quote a well known fictional sub captain: “ they’ll not make the same mistake again”   

[BrightonCorgi]

In Swiss legal system I think you have to pay and ride it out legally before getting a refund or what-have-you.  It's like that with service contracts there.  You have to pay no matter the outcome and then get your money back in court.

Good will and reputation should be all that's needed, but it's not my decision or business.

[vladdraq]

9 hours ago, bambambam said:

The box that was examined was mine - arrived and looked good on initial inspection. Box was right, cigars looked good and I planned to not touch them for a few years. Saw a post on FB group about serial number not aligning with box date sourced from MF and that’s what started my inquiry. I did not smoke one.

They are very good fakes, as Dan detailed in his post.

ok, gotcha. Rethinking it i would have do the same, more, lf have an open box.  If i would be you i'll fire up one, at least for a 10 min smoke and cut it through to see the construction of it. 

[MrBirdman]

6 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

In Swiss legal system I think you have to pay and ride it out legally before getting a refund or what-have-you.  It's like that with service contracts there.  You have to pay no matter the outcome and then get your money back in court.

Good will and reputation should be all that's needed, but it's not my decision or business.

And ultimately how many international buyers are going to pursue a costly claim in Switzerland? Zero, unless they allow class actions and someone organizes one, which is almost as unlikely.

They won’t be getting any more of my business, full stop. 

[NSXCIGAR]

11 hours ago, Fugu said:

Not that easy. This is difficult. Even if they did e.g. get stock from PCC (or other distributors), PCC could not openly admit it they sold to a vendor outside their own distribution area. That would be violating contract agreements with HSA.

The only thing that matters is an official relationship. If PCC is supplying to MF via gray market you're correct--they'll deny it and they should. Which is why if they're not official clients of a distributor claiming they "work directly with..." is a totally unverifiable claim that is useless to a customer. Literally anyone can make that claim. Verification is all that matters. You're either an official client of a distributor or you're not. 

While they don't openly advertise that they are clients of any distributor as you posted bespokeunit did report it, and that is effectively the media. Sure, bespokeunit could have misunderstood MF but in that case it's MF's responsibility to correct that once the write-up is published, and of course bespokeunit's responsibility to confirm it with MF if brought to their attention.

 

This may be a stupid question but has anyone actually detected an issue with the taste of these fakes? I see nothing on the Reddit thread actually addressing the quality of the cigars...

[dominattorney]

Mexico City duty free. Lol. Two three packs of psd4 for around 100 usd each. One 3 pack romeo Churchill at 155. Hard pass 

[MrBirdman]

12 minutes ago, dominattorney said:

Mexico City duty free. Lol. Two three packs of psd4 for around 100 usd each. One 3 pack romeo Churchill at 155. Hard pass 

Madness

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The only thing that matters is an official relationship. If PCC is supplying to MF gray market you're correct--they'll deny it and they should. Which is why if they're not official clients of a distributor claiming they "work directly with..." is a totally unverifiable claim that is useless to a customer. Literally anyone can make that claim. Verification is all that matters. You're either an official client of a distributor or you're not. 

While they don't openly advertise that they are clients of any distributor as you posted bespokeunit did report it, and that is effectively the media. Sure, bespokeunit could have misunderstood MF but in that case it's MF's responsibility to correct that once the write-up is published, and of course bespokeunit's responsibility to confirm it with MF if brought to their attention.

Agree on all points!

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, dominattorney said:

Mexico City duty free. Lol. Two three packs of psd4 for around 100 usd each. One 3 pack romeo Churchill at 155. Hard pass 

A 3-pack of PSD4 is $46.05 in Cuba, so what's the problem? 

[dominattorney]

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

A 3-pack of PSD4 is $46.05 in Cuba, so what's the problem? 

The problem is if you don't know anything the cheap option is still the 100 usd psd4 3pack to post on Instagram. I smuggled like 1250 of cc into Mexico plus whatever the equivalent of 6 nudies is. #smoothcriminal

[BrightonCorgi]

8 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

They won’t be getting any more of my business, full stop. 

I bought once from them like 20 years ago and forgot all about them. 

[Frinkiac7]

Sobering thread and I have never bought from MF. makes me wonder about the whole gray market.

I usually trust to the fact that I am buying unpopular and not likely to be faked cigars…maybe that is not even a good plan anymore!

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, Frinkiac7 said:

makes me wonder about the whole gray market

Nothing prevents even a HSA-listed vendor from obtaining third party stock. The bottom line is use only the most trusted of vendors. 

[BrightonCorgi]

7 hours ago, Frinkiac7 said:

Sobering thread and I have never bought from MF. makes me wonder about the whole gray market.

I usually trust to the fact that I am buying unpopular and not likely to be faked cigars…maybe that is not even a good plan anymore!

Unless you're chasing fancy cigars; you only need a 2-3 vendors.  Add in a few LCDH's that ship as well. 

[KCCubano]

Until the dust settles I am down to three vendors. As @Frinkiac7 stated who knows whether the non premium reg production fakes have entered the supply chains of once trusted vendors.