A Question on Ash Color

[Arminius]

I've found that the damper the cigar, darker the ash of the filler. Is this true? I've also usually found that binder's ash will always be white/gray, very rarely dark grey. Sometimes, the filler starts with white ash, transitions to dark grey. What do these mean? What is the optimal ash color that shows optimal smoking RH conditions? I feel like my best experiences have been with cigars that have ash which is white in every layer, throughout. Curious to hear the opinions of those who are more knowledgeable.

Attaching some different ash conditions:

Completely white - was amazing

black inside: felt like it needed more dry boxing

black inside and outside

mixed- but was good except there was tunneling somewhere

 

[Lfhard]

I’m not very knowledgeable on ash but my 2015 Bolivar Tubos #1 have the blackest ash I have seen. They smoke and taste wonderfully. They are not damp either. I’ll have to smoke one and post the image of the ash. 

[NSXCIGAR]

Ash color is a function of the nutrients absorbed from the soil during leaf growth. I'm not aware that cigar storage conditions play any part in it. 

Typically, the higher the potassium and calcium content of the soil the lighter the ash will be. 

Not sure if this is true but a possible explanation for why NC ash tends to be lighter than CC ash is the more aggressive chemical fertilization used in NCs. I would imagine NC producers tend to err on the side of overuse of particular chemicals. CCs are generally in a perpetual state of barely adequate fertilization meaning frequent sub-optimal levels of particular chemicals. 

 

[NapaNolan]

3 hours ago, Lfhard said:

I’m not very knowledgeable on ash but my 2015 Bolivar Tubos #1 have the blackest ash I have seen. They smoke and taste wonderfully. They are not damp either. I’ll have to smoke one and post the image of the ash. 

Funny, I smoked a Romeo No 1 tubo a few weekends ago and the ash was quite black as well.

[Bijan]

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Ash color is a function of the nutrients absorbed from the soil during leaf growth. I'm not aware that cigar storage conditions play any part in it. 

I could see cigars that are way over damp wouldn't burn as hot or vice versa with over dry cigars and that could theoretically affect the ash colour. But there's a reasonably narrow range that each person likes their cigars at so in general it's not a factor.

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, Bijan said:

I could see cigars that are way over damp wouldn't burn as hot or vice versa with over dry cigars and that could theoretically affect the ash colour. But there's a reasonably narrow range that each person likes their cigars at so in general it's not a factor.

It certainly could be a factor--I'm just not aware that any correlation has been made. And I'm not sure a study could be casually made. The controls would be very difficult. You'd have to know exactly what color ash you're going to see in any control group and then smoke many examples at various levels of rH. And would dark ash be more likely to go light or vice versa? And we are speculating on the mechanism of rH influencing ash color whereas we know the chemical mechanism for potassium and calcium influencing ash color. 

[Bijan]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

It certainly could be a factor--I'm just not aware that any correlation has been made. And I'm not sure a study could be casually made. The controls would be very difficult. You'd have to know exactly what color ash you're going to see in any control group and then smoke many examples at various levels of rH. And would dark ash be more likely to go light or vice versa? And we are speculating on the mechanism of rH influencing ash color whereas we know the chemical mechanism for potassium and calcium influencing ash color. 

Don't know about cigar ash specifically. With forest fires it seems brighter ash occurs with higher temperatures: (black at 350C, bright at 550C)

https://journals.vgtu.lt/index.php/MLA/article/download/5109/4411

[KnightsAnole]

22 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Typically, the higher the potassium and calcium content of the soil the lighter the ash will be. 

 

I’ve always heard this a well, even in the NC world. I’ve also heard magnesium content in soil plays a big part. I did come across an interesting patent a while back regarding ash color:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3251368A/en

[La_Tigre]

3 hours ago, Bijan said:

Don't know about cigar ash specifically. With forest fires it seems brighter ash occurs with higher temperatures: (black at 350C, bright at 550C)

https://journals.vgtu.lt/index.php/MLA/article/download/5109/4411

Thinking the same thing. Take a torch toward a touch up and you’ll get white ash as cane be. Seems more a function of complete combustion. Smoldering ash tends to taste like soot/ashtray IMO, too. Interested to hear more opinion as burning hot tends to cone then go acrid.

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, Bijan said:

Don't know about cigar ash specifically. With forest fires it seems brighter ash occurs with higher temperatures: (black at 350C, bright at 550C)

https://journals.vgtu.lt/index.php/MLA/article/download/5109/4411

Cigar burning temperature is probably in a very low, narrow range so it's likely a non-factor for practical purposes. A 2,000 degree cremation oven will probably turn anything white. It's just burning off everything that would appear dark. 

3 hours ago, La_Tigre said:

Smoldering ash tends to taste like soot/ashtray IMO, too.

Smoldering ash may be a function of improperly fermented tobacco causing the poor taste. You may have cause and effect reversed there. 

[Bijan]

18 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Cigar burning temperature is probably in a very low, narrow range so it's likely a non-factor for practical purposes. A 2,000 degree cremation oven will probably turn anything white. It's just burning off everything that would appear dark.

I have definitely seen a paper or article on cigar/tobacco burning temperature (not specifically about ash though), I'll try to find it.

Edit: here it is, pipe vs cigarette vs cigar:

https://aacrjournals.org/cancerres/article/16/6/490/473384/On-the-Burning-Temperatures-of-Tobacco

There's a link to download the pdf.

[NSXCIGAR]

2 minutes ago, Bijan said:

I have definitely seen a paper or article on cigar/tobacco burning temperature (not specifically about ash though), I'll try to find it.

Hard to see how it could vary much, but seeing as how cigar ash runs the gamut of color and assuming relatively similar ranges of burning temps from similar sized cigars, I don't see how it could be much of a factor when smoking normally. However, it would be easier to test. 

[Bijan]

7 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Hard to see how it could vary much, but seeing as how cigar ash runs the gamut of color and assuming relatively similar ranges of burning temps from similar sized cigars, I don't see how it could be much of a factor when smoking normally. However, it would be easier to test. 

Max temperature varied between 380C and 630C depending on how the cigar was smoked and quality of the cigar. And so they didn't include the graph, since it was nowhere near as uniform as pipe or cigarette smoking.

 

[BoliDan]

Ash color has little to do with anything, in my humble opinion. The more heat, the whiter the ash, the more minerals, the whiter the ash. Minerals are not indicative of flavor. Some of my biggest cherry bombs on RyJ Churchills have historically been dark.

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, BoliDan said:

Ash color has little to do with anything, in my humble opinion.

Well, it happens for some reason. There is a physical or chemical explanation for the color of anything. 

Whether or not it affects taste is a separate issue. We're just discussing why ash color varies. 

 

9 hours ago, Bijan said:

Max temperature varied between 380C and 630C

That seems to be a fairly wide temperature range. 650C is pretty hot. You would think whiter ash would be more common considering those temps. Leads me to believe temp has a lesser impact on ash color than other factors. 

It certainly doesn't explain the propensity for NCs to have lighter colored ash than CCs. One would assume similar temperature ranges for both. 

[GaryK 54]

There are probably many factors that affect ash color to a degree, but I believe mineral content of the soil is the most significant. Specifically, nutrient dense soil that is high in magnesium and calcium tends to give a whiter ash. Most, but not all, of my Cuban cigars have a grey ash. I have not found ash color to be a strong indicator of flavor. 

[BoliDan]

20 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Well, it happens for some reason. There is a physical or chemical explanation for the color of anything. 

Whether or not it affects taste is a separate issue. We're just discussing why ash color varies. 

 

OK 😕. I thought that I explained that there is two explanations of chemical reactions for white ash, before the flavor comment. I only added that because NC forums tend to think white ash is indicative of higher quality, and I wanted to squash that shit...

I know you, we have had conversations before... I'm not an idiot.

Cheers bud 

[Hammer Smokin']

I don't have experience growing tobacco, but plenty growing weed. 

a black ash from weed came from not flushing out nitrates during the final cycle of growth (assuming hydroponics). 

a nice clean white ash meant you flushed out all the nitrates. 

I would assume it is similar with tobacco. I bet dark ash has to due with additional nitrates or other minerals during growing. 

Anyone ever hear of tobacco being grown under a controlled hydroponic setup? 

[GaryK 54]

10 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

I don't have experience growing tobacco, but plenty growing weed. 

a black ash from weed came from not flushing out nitrates during the final cycle of growth (assuming hydroponics). 

a nice clean white ash meant you flushed out all the nitrates. 

I would assume it is similar with tobacco. I bet dark ash has to due with additional nitrates or other minerals during growing. 

Anyone ever hear of tobacco being grown under a controlled hydroponic setup? 

I agree with you. This is more about nutrients in the soil - especially magnesium and to a lesser degree calcium - than anything else. I believe this has been discussed many before on this Forum. Certainly a subject broadly discussed online. 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

Anyone ever hear of tobacco being grown under a controlled hydroponic setup? 

Tobacco plants can be grown hydroponically, sure. But nicotiana is a pretty large plant and large-scale cultivation would necessitate a massive setup. With such a massive setup it becomes very difficult to control environment--something that must be precisely controlled for premium tobacco. 

It would be interesting to try and grow a couple plants hydroponically but you only get about 5-7 Robusto-size cigars worth of filler per plant. Juice kind of isn't worth the squeeze. And I suppose you could get some Sumatra or CT to wrap it with as growing shade hydroponically would be even more challenging.