More Chicken ...

[Nino]

1 hour ago, rckymtn22 said:

I agree Nino, always wondered how Coca-Cola gets around the embargo with seemingly no issues. Not exactly a essential product. 

That is an easy one .... 🙂

Coke is imported from Mexico ....

PS : just saw that Cory explained that very well.

[Corylax18]

18 hours ago, El Presidente said:

flip side 

the extorion continues. 

• You restrict the rest of the western world from trading in chicken with the Cubans by threatening their US trade market should they do so. 
• You remove cuba from the internatinal banking system
• You make yourself the only logical seller. 
• You then set the price. 
• You insist on cash. 

 

mafia 101

 

We've done a good job hiding it from the rest of the world, but this is actually our plan to pay for the $1.9 billion dollar Covid Relief bill. 🙄

If every dime of that 19 million is profit (it isnt) At the current 2 boat loads a month it will only take us 6 years to pay it off!! 🤣

We're the only logical seller because Cuba has burned every bridge that's been extended to them. Not paying the Chinese(or anybody) on time, taking over their hotel after they spent the money to build it, almost no relationship at all with the Russians anymore.  

Doing business with Cuba is more difficult than almost any other country, but that isn't entirely because of the US. The Cubans themselves have some responsibility. 

Why does no one ever discuss the Soviets packing up and abandoning the country?  That lead to the longest and deepest period of pain for the cuban people in their history. 

Cuba and a lot of American's(especially young ones) actually have a common mindset. The easiest (laziest) response to a problem is "its everybody else's fault!!" "I'm so helpless and weak", "the system is rigged", "everyone is biased against me", "nothing is fair" blah, blah, blah. 

Degradation of personal pride/responsibility goes hand in hand with Socialist mentalities, so its no surprise to see the same crap growing in popularity here. I think a long weekend in Cuba should be mandatory for any voting American. My first trip down there made my mind up about socialism.

"If its every bodies responsibility, than its no ones responsibility."

[Vitola Corleone]

12 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

it is a good point. worth noting that when the embargo was first imposed, it had the desired effect of severely damaging the Cuban economy. and it has never really recovered. had there been no embargo, we'll never know what might have happened but it is very hard to believe that the economy would have been so bad and ditto, the suffering of the cuban people. 

Let me put it slightly differently: a perhaps pointless thought experiment. Suppose there were never an embargo. What would we expect of Cuba's long run GDP? 

Every high performing country in LA is a former or current US, UK, or Dutch dependency. Almost all French and Spanish colonies struggle to this day. The best of the bunch are Uruguay, Panama, Venezuela, and Chile, about $15-16k per person. Now the latter three have major geographical/resource endowments by random luck that Cuba doesn't. Uruguay is a mystery but probably related that it has been quite stable politically since the 1980s and went long on neoliberal economic discipline. Bottom line none of these seem like good stand ins for Cuba's alternate-universe history. 

Of the rest in LA, the best clock in at GDP $10k-12k per person. About $1-3k per person different from Cuba's actual figure. 

Can you attribute 100% of that difference to the embargo? Of course not. Cuba is communist and already had a history of being less stable than most before that (which is part of the reason for its communist revolution). Both of those factors tell you something about economic prospects. 

So just ballpark Cuba's GDP at $10k per person without the embargo. Does the rationing and privation go away? I can't see that. That's why, imo, the embargo cannot be a major cause of the Cuban peoples' problems. They are problems of distribution, not of magnitude. $8800 per head is not a lot of money but it is 10x the world bank's poverty threshold. 

[El Presidente]

12 hours ago, nino said:

 

Like HSA gets its money from all the countries it sells to.

A very confusing embargo.

 

Nino, transfer issues are indeed a problem which came to a head earlier this year. 

Part of the problem is that OFAC commenced listing specific Cuban companies (military)that were vetoed.  HSA ia JV. You can guess the rest. 

 

[El Presidente]

5 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

We've done a good job hiding it from the rest of the world, but this is actually our plan to pay for the $1.9 billion dollar Covid Relief bill. 🙄

If every dime of that 19 million is profit (it isnt) At the current 2 boat loads a month it will only take us 6 years to pay it off!! 🤣

We're the only logical seller because Cuba has burned every bridge that's been extended to them. Not paying the Chinese(or anybody) on time, taking over their hotel after they spent the money to build it, almost no relationship at all with the Russians anymore.  

 

Cory, I largely agree with your post. The Cuban Government is completely inept. I am no apologist for them. I have never been. 

However, the reality is the US has rigged the game in terms of agricultural supply. 

The options are largely the US, China (their own financial system) and anyone who can do contra (doctors/nurses/rum). 

There is the great story of the Canadian Coffee Van who had their Square facility removed because they were selling/promoting Cuban origin coffee.  Madness.....but multiply that by a gazillion on the international stage today. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/square-canada-1.5303143

[Ken Gargett]

4 hours ago, Vitola Corleone said:

Let me put it slightly differently: a perhaps pointless thought experiment. Suppose there were never an embargo. What would we expect of Cuba's long run GDP? 

Every high performing country in LA is a former or current US, UK, or Dutch dependency. Almost all French and Spanish colonies struggle to this day. The best of the bunch are Uruguay, Panama, Venezuela, and Chile, about $15-16k per person. Now the latter three have major geographical/resource endowments by random luck that Cuba doesn't. Uruguay is a mystery but probably related that it has been quite stable politically since the 1980s and went long on neoliberal economic discipline. Bottom line none of these seem like good stand ins for Cuba's alternate-universe history. 

Of the rest in LA, the best clock in at GDP $10k-12k per person. About $1-3k per person different from Cuba's actual figure. 

Can you attribute 100% of that difference to the embargo? Of course not. Cuba is communist and already had a history of being less stable than most before that (which is part of the reason for its communist revolution). Both of those factors tell you something about economic prospects. 

So just ballpark Cuba's GDP at $10k per person without the embargo. Does the rationing and privation go away? I can't see that. That's why, imo, the embargo cannot be a major cause of the Cuban peoples' problems. They are problems of distribution, not of magnitude. $8800 per head is not a lot of money but it is 10x the world bank's poverty threshold. 

no argument. no embargo and one still struggles to imagine a thriving economy. these things are almost never 100% one reason only. 

what i would say is that i don't agree that the embargo is not a major cause of the cuban peoples' problems but perhaps not in the way you mean. for me, it has played a major role in allowing the cuban govt to maintain its hold on the people. remove it and, for me and i realise that it has been argued here a thousand times and that not everyone agrees, there is far more chance of the govt collapsing. not overnight but the revolution took about 7 years. i suspect the cuban people would be absolutely delighted if they were told the govt will be gone in seven. 

of course, this in no way implies that what follows will be better or much different. we are talking latin american govts. 

 

11 hours ago, porkchop said:

Interesting thread. 

Cuba choose the wrong bedfellow and that reverberates today. There are no innocent parties in political power struggles - everyone has their reasons. Feel terrible for the Cuban people. Where and when we are born is the true lottery in life. 

i tell my mates that we have won about 30 lotteries. the chances of that little sperm getting through are huge. then being born in australia or countries nearly as good as australia. the odds are ridiculously small. 

but on another matter, you say they chose the wrong bedfellow. the problem was that they were not given the choice. the US made it clear they wanted nothing to do with castro et al. that was what made the choice for them. 

[helix]

Being selfish but it is sure nice to go somewhere in the world without big box stores and  American fast food (McDonalds etc.) on every corner.

 

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i tell my mates that we have won about 30 lotteries. the chances of that little sperm getting through are huge. then being born in australia or countries nearly as good as australia. the odds are ridiculously small. 

 

Except for being a penal colony most of those early swimmers would have met there end on a cold cot in the pen. LOL.  

[Ken Gargett]

3 minutes ago, helix said:

Except for being a penal colony most of those early swimmers would have met there end on a cold cot in the pen. LOL.  

you think the brits gave those early convicts cots? that immediately made me think of that old monty python skit, luxury! 

[porkchop]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

i tell my mates that we have won about 30 lotteries. the chances of that little sperm getting through are huge. then being born in australia or countries nearly as good as australia. the odds are ridiculously small. 

but on another matter, you say they chose the wrong bedfellow. the problem was that they were not given the choice. the US made it clear they wanted nothing to do with castro et al. that was what made the choice for them. 

Same. Our lives are awesome.

On your second point, I'm sure Castro et al. had nothing to do with US decision making...

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, porkchop said:

Same. Our lives are awesome.

On your second point, I'm sure Castro et al. had nothing to do with US decision making...

i suspect it was more that the US was hugely pissed that the dictator they had supported, and pumped a fair whack of money into, had fallen over. at that stage, they were still far too miffed to see the big picture or to take advantage of it.

but i guess that is simply two ways of pronouncing potato. 

[porkchop]

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i suspect it was more that the US was hugely pissed that the dictator they had supported, and pumped a fair whack of money into, had fallen over. at that stage, they were still far too miffed to see the big picture or to take advantage of it.

but i guess that is simply two ways of pronouncing potato. 

Well that’s why the US has to get the chicken $$ now - didn’t take advantage in the past. 

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, porkchop said:

Well that’s why the US has to get the chicken $$ now - didn’t take advantage in the past. 

perfect.

although one might be tempted to suggest that this would be a poultry reason for doing so. 

[Corylax18]

5 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Cory, I largely agree with your post. The Cuban Government is completely inept. I am no apologist for them. I have never been. 

However, the reality is the US has rigged the game in terms of agricultural supply. 

The options are largely the US, China (their own financial system) and anyone who can do contra (doctors/nurses/rum). 

There is the great story of the Canadian Coffee Van who had their Square facility removed because they were selling/promoting Cuban origin coffee.  Madness.....but multiply that by a gazillion on the international stage today. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/square-canada-1.5303143

I largely agree with your post too😁, but it seems most (not all) of the "hand smacking" we do is purely for optics. 

A Canadian coffee truck gets their square account pulled while Nestle is building a factory in Cuba and selling Cuban Origin "Nescafe" products in the states. We could probably list similar contradictions all day. 

~$40 million a month in Ag purchases seems like a lot, but it isn't a drop in the bucket. On either end. Most of those products go to, government employees, resorts and maybe some of the dollar stores. Little, if any actually makes it way to the people who need it. 

On our end, we would be selling those products one way or another, at similar prices. Albeit not for cash. 

I spent a good bit of my day today in Greenwood, Mississippi, the "Cotton Capital" of Mississippi. The largest cotton bailer/compressor there processed(compressed and bailed) over $150 million worth of raw cotton this harvest season. In one, tiny, backwater town in Mississippi. 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Staple+Cot+Compress+Wearhouse/@33.4664695,-90.2221732,6330m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x578f5cd9724dc71e!8m2!3d33.4653066!4d-90.2104247

My point is, extortion of the Cuban agricultural import system was not the main goal of the embargo. If it was, its one of the worst thought out operations in history. We'll never pay back the costs we incurred at the current import rates. 

All that being said, the Hypocrisy is absolutely astounding. On another level, even for the U.S. Quite frankly its embarrassing at this point. 

[helix]

17 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

My point is, extortion of the Cuban agricultural import system was not the main goal of the embargo. If it was, its one of the worst thought out operations in history. We'll never pay back the costs we incurred at the current import rates. 

Who'd have guessed a rich fertile Caribbean Island the size of Cuba would not be able to feed itself ? 

[Nino]

12 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

but on another matter, you say they chose the wrong bedfellow. the problem was that they were not given the choice. the US made it clear they wanted nothing to do with castro et al. that was what made the choice for them. 

JFK sure extended a hand and was self-critical about Batista and supportive of Fidel :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

On October 6, 1960 Senator John F. Kennedy, in the midst of his campaign for the U.S. Presidency, decried Batista's relationship with the U.S. government and criticized the Eisenhower administration for supporting him:

Fulgencio Batista murdered 20,000 Cubans in seven years ... and he turned Democratic Cuba into a complete police state—destroying every individual liberty. Yet our aid to his regime, and the ineptness of our policies, enabled Batista to invoke the name of the United States in support of his reign of terror. Administration spokesmen publicly praised Batista—hailed him as a staunch ally and a good friend—at a time when Batista was murdering thousands, destroying the last vestiges of freedom, and stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the Cuban people, and we failed to press for free elections.^[49]

 

I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear.

— U.S. President John F. Kennedy, to Jean Daniel, October 24, 1963^[62]

[Ken Gargett]

2 minutes ago, nino said:

JFK sure extended a hand and was self-critical about Batista and supportive of Fidel :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

On October 6, 1960 Senator John F. Kennedy, in the midst of his campaign for the U.S. Presidency, decried Batista's relationship with the U.S. government and criticized the Eisenhower administration for supporting him:

Fulgencio Batista murdered 20,000 Cubans in seven years ... and he turned Democratic Cuba into a complete police state—destroying every individual liberty. Yet our aid to his regime, and the ineptness of our policies, enabled Batista to invoke the name of the United States in support of his reign of terror. Administration spokesmen publicly praised Batista—hailed him as a staunch ally and a good friend—at a time when Batista was murdering thousands, destroying the last vestiges of freedom, and stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the Cuban people, and we failed to press for free elections.^[49]

 

I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear.

— U.S. President John F. Kennedy, to Jean Daniel, October 24, 1963^[62]

nino, first, please don't think of me as an apologist for the cuban govt or fidel and especially not che. could not be further from that.

but timing. when he said those comments, he was only a candidate. he had absolutely no power and there was every chance he'd have none. remember how close that election was. 

and even then, all that is fine but when jfk said that, it was too late. eisenhower had already dismissed castro and the cubans completely.  with respect to jfk and all politicians, how often do we see things said later that may not fully reflect the truth. all very well for him to say all that but actions... he says that but he still gave the green light to the bay of pigs. how does one equate the two? 

[Nino]

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

nino, first, please don't think of me as an apologist for the cuban govt or fidel and especially not che. could not be further from that.

but timing. when he said those comments, he was only a candidate. he had absolutely no power and there was every chance he'd have none. remember how close that election was. 

and even then, all that is fine but when jfk said that, it was too late. eisenhower had already dismissed castro and the cubans completely.  with respect to jfk and all politicians, how often do we see things said later that may not fully reflect the truth. all very well for him to say all that but actions... he says that but he still gave the green light to the bay of pigs. how does one equate the two? 

Ken, no way I think of you as an apologist - not at all.

I enjoy a good & fair discussion and just wanted to share some contrarian points

Agreed on pols. But : in the end the US imposed an arms embargo on Batista and I believe JFK was trapped/forced by the CIA on the Bay of Pigs invasion ( or that it was already planned by Ike and JFK took it over ).

[Cigar Surgeon]

11 hours ago, helix said:

Who'd have guessed a rich fertile Caribbean Island the size of Cuba would not be able to feed itself ? 

The history with Cuba's move to a sugarcane monoculture and the role the US played in that is an interesting read. You can understand why in a vacuum they would have made that choice, even if long term it was a poor one.

[SpecialK]

On 3/25/2021 at 12:48 AM, Ken Gargett said:

 

i strongly suspect it was never quite as simple as that. i suspect fidel had che pushing him very hard and che was far further along that track than fidel was.

remember that fidel went to the States 3-4 months after the revolution to talk to the american govt. eisenhower basically gave him the finger and went and played golf to avoid him (some things never change). fidel said he would not beg for american aid but there is no doubt that had the americans provided some support or assistance that things would have been extremely different today and the russians may never have got a foothold shortly after. in that case, who knows if they would have gone full metal communism. like so much in history, we'll never know. 

nixon, as VP (and whatever one thinks of nixon and his crimes, he had a fairly good handle on foreign affairs) made certain to meet with castro before he left the States to try and ensure fidel did not stray. he came away believing that fidel was incredibly naive about communism. 

fidel may have simply been trying to play russia and the US off against each other or he may have genuinely thought he could be in an alliance with the States. who knows? but if the States had made an effort, you have to think that the Cuban people might have had a better time over the last six decades. and as we have seen elsewhere, that could easily have led to a more democratic country and the end of fidel. i suspect he would never have believed he'd lose an election. or he may have taken any support and plunged the country into communism. i have no doubt that che would have pushed very hard for that. 

I think communism/socialism was always going to happen no matter what. Raul was on that train from the beginning and of course Che was with him..to a much stronger degree... maybe that's why Fidel tired of him (Che) and sent him out on "special projects" .. revolutions in Africa and Bolivia (which thankfully got him eliminated).

[Bijan]

9 hours ago, nino said:

JFK sure extended a hand and was self-critical about Batista and supportive of Fidel :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

On October 6, 1960 Senator John F. Kennedy, in the midst of his campaign for the U.S. Presidency, decried Batista's relationship with the U.S. government and criticized the Eisenhower administration for supporting him:

Fulgencio Batista murdered 20,000 Cubans in seven years ... and he turned Democratic Cuba into a complete police state—destroying every individual liberty. Yet our aid to his regime, and the ineptness of our policies, enabled Batista to invoke the name of the United States in support of his reign of terror. Administration spokesmen publicly praised Batista—hailed him as a staunch ally and a good friend—at a time when Batista was murdering thousands, destroying the last vestiges of freedom, and stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the Cuban people, and we failed to press for free elections.^[49]

 

I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear.

— U.S. President John F. Kennedy, to Jean Daniel, October 24, 1963^[62]

You might want to quote the next paragraph

“But it is also clear that the problem has ceased to be a Cuban one, and has become international—that is, it has become a Soviet problem. I am the President of the United States and not a sociologist; I am the President of a free nation which has certain responsibilities in the Free World. I know that Castro betrayed the promises made in the Sierra Maestra, and that he has agreed to be a Soviet agent in Latin America. I know that through his fault—either his ‘will to independence’, his madness or Communism—the world was on the verge of nuclear war in October, 1962. The Russians understood this very well, at least after our reaction; but so far as Fidel Castro is concerned, I must say that I don’t know whether he realizes this, or even if he cares about it.” A smile, then: “You can tell me whether he does when you come back. In any case, the nations of Latin America are not going to attain justice and progress that way, I mean through Communist subversion. They won’t get there by going from economic oppression to a Marxist dictatorship which Castro himself denounced a few years ago. The United States now has the possibility of doing as much good in Latin America as it has done wrong in the past; I would even say that we alone have this power—on the essential condition that Communism does not take over there.”

 ̶h̶t̶t̶p̶:̶/̶/̶w̶w̶w̶.̶f̶i̶d̶e̶l̶c̶a̶s̶t̶r̶o̶.̶c̶u̶/̶e̶n̶/̶a̶r̶t̶i̶c̶l̶e̶s̶/̶u̶n̶o̶f̶f̶i̶c̶i̶a̶l̶-̶e̶n̶v̶o̶y̶-̶h̶i̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶c̶-̶r̶e̶p̶o̶r̶t̶-̶t̶w̶o̶-̶c̶a̶p̶i̶t̶a̶l̶s̶

Edit:

http://kenrahn.com/JFK/History/WC_Period/Pre-WCR_reactions_to_assassination/Pre-WCR_reactions_by_the_left/TNR--Unofficial_envoy.html

[Nino]

18 minutes ago, Bijan said:

You might want to quote the next paragraph

 

The quotes I mentioned are from Wikipedia which I consider to be neutral and objective.

Congrats on that find, but I'd rather be a cigar detective than a Fidel "quotation" finder in his "Soldier of Ideas" site.

Not for me to trust a Cuban website developed by the UCI in Havana and having these "valuable" links :

• Cubadebate
• Granma
• Juventud Rebelde
• Cuba Socialista
• Cuba.cu
• Prensa Latina
• CubaMinRex
• Cubacoopera

 

[Bijan]

16 minutes ago, nino said:

The quotes I mentioned are from Wikipedia which I consider to be neutral and objective.

That is fair, but this is from the article that Wikipedia quoted on footnote 62 of the page you linked. I just googled the name of that article and this was the first result, I'm sorry I did not look into who was hosting the article, I'm sure we can find a more neutral source for the text, shouldn't change the contents.

Edit: Here is a more neutral source:

http://kenrahn.com/JFK/History/WC_Period/Pre-WCR_reactions_to_assassination/Pre-WCR_reactions_by_the_left/TNR--Unofficial_envoy.html

Edit: Again my apologies I have edited my original post.

[Nino]

No apologies required at all - I just wanted to point out the source of that link, a Cuban official site which will neither be objective or neutral.

But : I am sure that the quote is correct as your link is to the memories of M. Jean Daniel and I am sure the text is from his memories or a published book ( more so after checking your second link - it is the same text ).

Thanks for the research @Bijan !!

 

[mprach024]

Wikipedia Update:  JFK to American Poultry Association - October 20th 1962 - “With our plan, in 60 years time we will corner the chicken market in Cuba to fight communism.”

Wikipedia Update:  Above quotation has been removed