A safer option? Vaping deaths from harmless THC, nicotine?

[La_Tigre]

This is a new development in the vaping world. It seems a large majority of Americans have traded in the highly taxed cigarette (and cannabis) for vape juice.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2019/p0906-vaping-related-illness.html

Where does this leave us with the high tax of tobacco and supposed correlated decrease in use of cigarettes?

[J-ROB]

Vapes got me off of a 40 year cigarette habit a year and a half ago. So, for me, I'd have to say there there was an ultimate health benefit.

The turning point was the "Juul" type vape that is puff-activated and uses a high potency "nicotine salt" juice said to contain more compounds from tobacco than pure nicotine, making it more satisfying to cigarette smoker than a standard nicotine + flavor juice.

The Juul juice is super strong, to the point where that product has been outlawed in some countries. I was smoking two packs of American Spirits a day and that stuff made my head spin, but it did get my mind off of cigarettes.

I bought non-Juul brand vape machines and half strength nic salt juice and weaned myself away from cigs, then weaned myself off the puff-vape with cuban puros!!

I'm happy where i am now. A couple PCs or panatelas a day , an occasional #2 or Robusto, and not even one cigarette for going on two years. The puros are FAR more enjoyable than cigarettes were and I don't miss those evil things one bit.

One unexplored and seemingly problematic dimension of vape is the flavorings, which are food grade flavors for cakes and whatnot but who said they are safe to smoke? There is the documented threat of "popcorn lung"  caused by a very popular flavoring ingredient, see https://www.lung.org/about-us/blog/2016/07/popcorn-lung-risk-ecigs.html

The THC vape cartridges are also tricky and can be more synthetic than they seem. Some are organic plant-derived cannabis resin diluted with PG but some of them use pure chemical THC obtained by fractional distillation then flavor of popular strains of weed are recreated with a mix of flavoring agents, including food grade terpenes that occur in the natural plant. 

hAt least when i am smoking a nice CC, I know I am smoking pure tobacco just like god intended.

 

 

[dshot]

I've been saying it for years. I'll just stick to cigars and whiskey. Like Uncle Rob below. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s87dGHN34Rw

 

[NSXCIGAR]

People have been vaping for years and heavily to boot. Never been any acute issues until the last 6 weeks? 

I think some tainted product made its way into stores. Or people are putting something other than OEM product into their devices. I'm very suspicious.

As an aside, my mother was able to quit smoking after 50 years using vaping. IMO, if only for that, leave it alone and keep the studies coming. 

[La_Tigre]

I’m with you on the quitting cigarettes. I have several relatives who have gone that route with much success trading one addiction mode for the other.

I wonder if the new wave of mega cloud ☁️ vape is driving these issues.

I can speak from a medical perspective that oils/hydrocarbons do not play well with gas exchange in the lungs. These additives should be looked at more closely. 

[J-ROB]

Just heard on the radio that Vitamin E was an ingredient in some of the reported cases, although there are no solid data linking it to the problems encountered.

Beats me how people would assume that is healthy to smoke Vitamin E just because it is beneficial or useful in other applications...

 

For me a box of Partii MF and a box of HUHC were essential in breaking the cycle of addiction, but the vape chapter did get me off the ciggies.

I quickly realized the stogies were WAY more satisfying, although not a great plan to save all the money I was blowing on tobacco.?

 

[Ritch]

Sounds like a plan. Give up smoking and smoke more cigars... think I can manage that...

[SCgarman]

Vaping has become an epidemic amongst our young generation even teenagers. Millions are addicted to nicotine now at a very young age and think this is the cool thing to do. Lord knows the irreparable damage they are doing to their lungs and respiratory system. Very sad and concerning.

[La_Tigre]

7 minutes ago, NYgarman said:

Vaping has become an epidemic amongst our young generation even teenagers. Millions are addicted to nicotine now at a very young age and think this is the cool thing to do. Lord knows the irreparable damage they are doing to their lungs and respiratory system. Very sad and concerning.

Agreed. Everywhere I go across the states I see clouds of diesel fumes ? drawn from those vape juice canteens. 

[Ritch]

I have banned my staff members from smoking them near me. Even passively smoking the fumes irritates my lungs and causes me to cough. And I practically chain smoke roll ups...

[NSXCIGAR]

10 hours ago, NYgarman said:

Vaping has become an epidemic amongst our young generation even teenagers. Millions are addicted to nicotine now at a very young age and think this is the cool thing to do. Lord knows the irreparable damage they are doing to their lungs and respiratory system. Very sad and concerning.

No one's suggesting it's an objectively positive hobby, but at this point, it's infinitely safer than cigarettes. Nicotine is physically harmless for adults. It's the tobacco that kills you. 

Young people are always going to do something stupid unfortunately. But I'd rather have them doing this than cigarettes. And my personal experience is that it appears to be a highly effective method to help people quit cigarettes, so I would certainly be unhappy to see this product banned at this point when there appears to be almost no evidence that it's harmful. 

Yes, kids are going to get ahold of anything sold to anyone, but I feel the responsibility lies with parents, teachers and friends and family to police that. 

[Zigatoh]

10 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Nicotine is physically harmless for adults.

Yeah, no.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/

 

[Vortigan]

I remember when e-cigarettes first entered the scene, they were lauded from the rooftops as God's gift to helping smokers quit. Finally, here was a truly effective solution. And quit they have, in droves, myself included. Now though, it seems, they've become almost as demonised as the cigarettes with as many people who first praised them now seemingly determined to crucify them. Whatever happens going forwards, I have no doubt that both "big tobacco" and government treasuries around the world will continue to reap their own particular harvests.

[BrightonCorgi]

Swapping one chemical "smoke" for another another...  I don't see any benefit.  Either quit smoking or not.  Vape is just "smoke and mirrors" that everyone can make a quick buck on until the reality sinks in.

[SCgarman]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

No one's suggesting it's an objectively positive hobby, but at this point, it's infinitely safer than cigarettes. Nicotine is physically harmless for adults. It's the tobacco that kills you. 

Young people are always going to do something stupid unfortunately. But I'd rather have them doing this than cigarettes. And my personal experience is that it appears to be a highly effective method to help people quit cigarettes, so I would certainly be unhappy to see this product banned at this point when there appears to be almost no evidence that it's harmful. 

Yes, kids are going to get ahold of anything sold to anyone, but I feel the responsibility lies with parents, teachers and friends and family to police that. 

You certainly sound like someone that has no children. Many ill-informed statements here. But you are entitled to your opinion.

[Cigar Surgeon]

God the inability for media to do basic science research is infuriating.

This has as much to do with 'vaping' as if I did a rail of coke off a cigar and then complained about a heart attack due to cigar smoking.

Every single one of these cases involves kids doing THC Carts sourced from god knows where. The fundamental chemical breakdown of the liquid they're vaping is completely different. You've got an oil based solution versus a PG / VG solution which so far has held up under intense scientific review.

TL;DR - Lung damage is from THC Carts not 'vaping'. 

[La_Tigre]

3 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

God the inability for media to do basic science research is infuriating.

This has as much to do with 'vaping' as if I did a rail of coke off a cigar and then complained about a heart attack due to cigar smoking.

Every single one of these cases involves kids doing THC Carts sourced from god knows where. The fundamental chemical breakdown of the liquid they're vaping is completely different. You've got an oil based solution versus a PG / VG solution which so far has held up under intense scientific review.

TL;DR - Lung damage is from THC Carts not 'vaping'. 

The CDC is looking at it from both standpoints. The recommendation is to avoid nicotine as well as THC vaping. 

The FDA is looking at it from the THC standpoint only at this point.

The additives are of major concern from what I am seeing. I do believe the nicotrol inhaler type products deliver nicotine as a better option over cigarette products. I also believe the random flavorings and cloud producing additives contain chemicals that are harmful especially in excess. 

I also know it will not be long before the IDGAF crew will figure a way to blow out rainbow ? unicorns ? in vape cloud ☁️ form with the consequences be damned.

There have been numerous examples of these situations in history. I think trivializing is not a sound medical response. 

[NSXCIGAR]

13 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Swapping one chemical "smoke" for another another...  I don't see any benefit. 

Well, my mother was coughing up brown and green goo in the mornings for the last 10 years. ENTs had no idea what it was. She started vaping, quit smoking and within two weeks she stopped coughing up goo and hacking for 15 minutes straight in the morning. Her olfactory senses improved. Breathing became easier. And now after over a year her lungs are healing.

So I see a benefit.

[NSXCIGAR]

8 hours ago, La_Tigre said:

I also believe the random flavorings and cloud producing additives contain chemicals that are harmful especially in excess. 

This belief is based on what exactly? That a big exhaled cloud of vapor created by chemicals which have been deemed harmless by themselves for decades seems unhealthy?

I'm surprised by the jumping to conclusions about a product that no one can yet show as being physically harmful in any way, particularly as a substitute for something that we know for a fact is extraordinarily harmful and kills tens of thousands of people every year.

I don't believe anything other than when faced with drinking from a bottle labeled "poison" and another bottle labeled "unknown" I'm going to drink from the "unknown" bottle.

Until this product is shown to be worse for your health than cigarettes everyone using it instead of cigarettes is better off for it.

To be clear, I'm only supporting the use of this product by adults as a substitute for cigarettes--not as anything else. Until consistent and clear evidence comes in that it is worse than cigarettes I will continue to do so.

[CaptainQuintero]

  You should see what is like driving past school kids on their way to the gates in the mornings and at chucking out time, it's like a vintage steam rally...

[BrightonCorgi]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Well, my mother was coughing up brown and green goo in the mornings for the last 10 years. ENTs had no idea what it was. She started vaping, quit smoking and within two weeks she stopped coughing up goo and hacking for 15 minutes straight in the morning. Her olfactory senses improved. Breathing became easier. And now after over a year her lungs are healing.

So I see a benefit.

What if she just quit smoking cigarettes to begin with or went with a nicotine gum?

[Fugu]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Well, my mother was coughing up brown and green goo in the mornings

...sheesh, coughing up green Goo - not sure I am happy to hear that...

[etakmit]

On 9/9/2019 at 11:13 AM, Cigar Surgeon said:

God the inability for media to do basic science research is infuriating.

This has as much to do with 'vaping' as if I did a rail of coke off a cigar and then complained about a heart attack due to cigar smoking.

Every single one of these cases involves kids doing THC Carts sourced from god knows where. The fundamental chemical breakdown of the liquid they're vaping is completely different. You've got an oil based solution versus a PG / VG solution which so far has held up under intense scientific review.

TL;DR - Lung damage is from THC Carts not 'vaping'. 

This - so much this.  I am not a vaper but the media sucks.  These recent issues have all been from what is mentioned.  Kids wanting THC - sourcing it from wherever they can find it (made in some dude's basement) and the oil based / vs the PG/VG is huge and a BIG NO NO.  

 

Idiots really - both the kids smoking the shit and the media for not caring enough to differentiate.  It's a click-bait world we live in

[NSXCIGAR]

15 hours ago, Zigatoh said:

Yeah, no.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/

 

One paper from NCBI? Come on now.

Here's a bunch of studies from NCBI showing how harmful caffeine is:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735818/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3521899/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4269671/

US News and World Report summing up the lack of evidence of measurable long-term harm from nicotine, June 2018:

https://health.usnews.com/wellness/mind/articles/2018-07-12/is-nicotine-really-that-unhealthy

Shirley Cramer, chief executive of the RSPH, said: "Getting people on to nicotine rather than using tobacco would make a big difference to the public's health.

https://news.sky.com/story/nicotine-no-worse-than-cup-of-coffee-report-10349589

And the definitive study from the late 90s on nicotine's harmful effects:

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=pa0tucljwo4C&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&ots=XTpSLboldh&sig=Enz86HPMR8hnPzhTsRf2w6zN2_I#v=onepage&q&f=false

The bottom line is there is no solid consistent evidence showing nicotine is any less safe than caffeine for adults and non-pregnant women (who should also avoid caffeine).

Now we can have a discussion about the additives and chemicals that are delivered along with nicotine in vaping devices, but again, there is little evidence as of now that demonstrates that those associated chemicals are harmful. What we do know is that nicotine itself, aside from being highly addictive, is on par with caffeine in terms of physical harm. 

6 hours ago, NYgarman said:

You certainly sound like someone that has no children. Many ill-informed statements here. But you are entitled to your opinion.

I don't have children, but I realize and accept that bad stuff is out in there in the world and out there for kids to obtain, and recognize that not all products are equally harmful and shouldn't be banned unless the net harm is clearly greater than the net benefits, which at this point hasn't been established at all. Alcohol is a far more destructive product for youths and I think we all understand banning it would be unwise. Clearly we don't want kids addicted to anything, but I'd rather have more kids addicted to harmless nicotine via vaping and less addicted to it via cigarettes. 

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

What if she just quit smoking cigarettes to begin with or went with a nicotine gum?

Not gonna happen for a woman in her 70s smoking since the 60s. Just wasn't. I believe she tried some patches and gum years ago with no success. And the most important thing--she didn't want to quit. I think that's what many are missing. The people switching to vaping often are not ready to give up cigarettes at all. But vaping is the most seamless transition for them.

I truly believe the only thing she would or could have switched to is vaping. And also, she had tried other vaping devices a few years ago but they were inconvenient and difficult for her. she went back to cigarettes. She then tried the most popular one today (which I won't name) on a friend's recommendation and its ease of use made it feasible for her.

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

...sheesh, coughing up green Goo - not sure I am happy to hear that...

The last thing we'd want is any Fu goo. She might not make it through that...

10 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  You should see what is like driving past school kids on their way to the gates in the mornings and at chucking out time, it's like a vintage steam rally...

Hmm...vaping is illegal under 18. Where the hell are the parents and teachers? 

Nicotine is harmful to developing brains. If teachers and parents are allowing this then there's nothing that can be done. That's where the problem needs to be addressed. It is not acceptable behavior for those under 18 and I am all for spreading the word about that.