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8 hours ago, HopeUgood said:

There is plenty of scientific evidence that higher levels of greenhouse gasses act almost as a blanket, trapping the suns heat and releasing havoc with the weather. While it is true that these gasses naturally fluctuate, the levels we see now are unprecedented.  CO2 produced from the burning of fossil fuels also produces a specific ion when compared to naturally occurring atmospheric CO2. That graph is a near perfect overlay as the one linked and provided here by NASA, which is just a total ppm levels of carbon dioxide.  I do wonder as well how much of the current weather is related to solar energy directed at the earth. The suns typical solar cycle lasts approximately 11 years as it bounces between solar minimum and solar maximum, however there was a 60 year period from 1645 to 1715 in which the solar cycle broke down. There is speculation that this caused "the mini ice age" that was reported during that time period.  Personally, right now, my money is on the majority of the climate anomalies being caused by mankind. 
Just in the last two weeks, Australia set a heat wave record and Chicago will set a temperature swing record. That is on top of numerous cold temp records set in the states. Five of the hottest years on record all have occurred in the 2010 decade, with 20 of the hottest years on record occurring in the last 30 years.  

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
 

CO2 does not form ions. It is a electrostatically neutral covalent molecule. Water vapor is the primary greenhouse gas and without the greenhouse effect the earth would be 30 degrees colder. I have been working in the scientific field for over 23 years.

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so pretty much every reputable scientist on the planet has it wrong and self-serving politicians have a better understanding than they do.  when the last human finally expires, at least they will

Let's see who argues in an intelligent way and who gets an early Easter break.  I am happy for you to discuss the issues and supply supporting data (either way).  Debate not the man, not the poli

5 hours ago, Esteban77 said:

CO2 does not form ions. It is a electrostatically neutral covalent molecule. Water vapor is the primary greenhouse gas and without the greenhouse effect the earth would be 30 degrees colder. I have been working in the scientific field for over 23 years.

My mistake, I meant isotopes instead of ions.  Are you saying that CO2 levels have no bearing on the greenhouse effect ?  Water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas, but I was under the impression that we do not really know how much global water vapor levels have changed over the centuries?  Do you think methane plays any role in the greenhouse effect? 

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Personally, I don't believe humans have any real control over nature. But if I feel that humans have a substantial impact on climate, then for me the root problem is too many humans.

As for the islands of ocean garbage, for me what the garbage is composed of is irrelevant. How and why it's being dumped, and who's doing the dumping is of much greater importance.

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6 minutes ago, SenorPerfecto said:

Um... based on what evidence?

Pick any natural disaster you'd like. Control a hurricane. A tornado. Earthquakes. Tsunamis.

That's part of nature, and I've yet to see any human be able to control it. We certainly have impact,

but I'm of the opinion we have no real control.

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58 minutes ago, db13 said:

I also commented on this in this thread but my post was deleted. Apparently this is too political in nature to discuss. There is no question that the extreme climate conditions in the coming decades will wreck havoc on all food crops and tobacco will affected as well.

Your post was deleted simply because you couldn't keep profanity out of it.  set the standard. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

Personally, I don't believe humans have any real control over nature. But if I feel that humans have a substantial impact on climate, then for me the root problem is too many humans.

As for the islands of ocean garbage, for me what the garbage is composed of is irrelevant. How and why it's being dumped, and who's doing the dumping is of much greater importance.

 

.....and all those humans vote :D

between 2010 and 2020, near enough 700 million people will have been added to this planet.  Not too far short of another India/China. 

In my opinion we are not so slowly poisoning the planet.   To say that poisoning is not linked to accelerated climate change is a brave assumption. 

 

I try to look at it pragmatically. 

doing what is required globally will cost trillions to simply stabilise the situation. if it is possible at all.  If halfway through the process everything magically comes good and the deniers were proved right......we have lost money but not too much else. 

However, if we do nothing and the climate deniers are proved  categorically  wrong..........ouch.  No coming back from that one in good shape. ;)

 

 

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1 minute ago, SenorPerfecto said:

I stand by my reaction.

?

You can stand by what you want. 

The term "shame" (as used here) is personal. Personal is playing the man. Playing the man is not permitted.

if you didn't mean it to be then edit it out. 

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Ken will be laughing :D

I can understand why you (and many others) may deem my stance pedantic. 

 What I am seeking to do is to permit intelligent discussion of controversial topics. 

  Let's face it. It's a lost art.  

The left are all radicals, the right are all red neck capitalists, there is no middle, we shout over the top of the other party, names are called/ we malign/cheap shot/misrepresent.   Our opinion is the most important one. There is not even an attempt to understand the nature of the other person's opinion let alone perhaps take one or two points from it. 

 Enough. 

It's a global issue that is tearing social fabric apart.  FOH actually does a good job (that means you guys) but even here we need to tip toe around issues. 

I think it is time for a forum where such issues can be debated (in a spirit of learning). Except, members will be invited to join based upon their ability to converse maturely. 

It may be a small forum :rotfl:

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, BarryVT said:

How do we not know, that the climate we are experiencing now, is not a cycle the earth goes through every  million or so years?  What do you think humans were blaming the ice age on 2 million years ago?

I had no idea this comment would cause such pandemonium! Sorry Ken, it's senorperfectos fault! ?

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1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

To say that poisoning is not linked to accelerated climate change is a brave assumption.

There is no question that everything we do has an impact. Mining, driving, eating and wearing animals, etc. Are humans part of nature? Is our evolution and everything associated with that evolution part of nature? If not, what are we?

KG may laugh, but if I recall correctly, he considers winemakers part of terroir  :wink2:

One good asteroid strike and nature will balance itself.

 

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1 hour ago, BarryVT said:

I had no idea this comment would cause such pandemonium! Sorry Ken, it's senorperfectos fault! ?

Hmm I am also sorry (almost) that I responded! ? I'm all for intelligent discourse though and would like to see a small forum where civil people can discuss these things intelligently. Like El Pres said though, it goes a bit sour if someone comes in at goes and makes it all personal.

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2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

 

Ken will be laughing :D

I can understand why you (and many others) may deem my stance pedantic. 

 What I am seeking to do is to permit intelligent discussion of controversial topics. 

  Let's face it. It's a lost art.  

The left are all radicals, the right are all red neck capitalists, there is no middle, we shout over the top of the other party, names are called/ we malign/cheap shot/misrepresent.   Our opinion is the most important one. There is not even an attempt to understand the nature of the other person's opinion let alone perhaps take one or two points from it. 

 Enough. 

It's a global issue that is tearing social fabric apart.  FOH actually does a good job (that means you guys) but even here we need to tip toe around issues. 

I think it is time for a forum where such issues can be debated (in a spirit of learning). Except, members will be invited to join based upon their ability to converse maturely. 

It may be a small forum :rotfl:

 

 

 

actually, almost all of the posts i delete these days are for profanities. beyond me why supposedly intelligent grown humans can't get by without them. always love then seeing the perpetrator post wondering where it has gone. never seems to dawn. and i have better things to do than act as a school master to people who should know better. 

it is one thing during speech when it does happen. but for a forum, you have to make the deliberate decision to include profanity. you actually have to type it out. how hard it is to make the far more sensible and intelligent decision not to. 

 

on the actual topic, it has been said we can't stop earthquakes and cyclones etc. sure, understand that. but then consider the damage done by cyclones and hurricanes. i wish i still had the link but there was a wonderful/terrifying article, based on scientific studies, on the damage recent hurricanes have caused to regions of america. they have been far more damaging in recent years than in the past. this has largely been because of the damage to all the swamps/mangroves/coastal regions and so forth - all by humans. these used to absorb so much of the flooding/potential damage (yes, i am not doing the article justice at all). but we have destroyed those regions and now there is not that buffer. so we may not cause earthquakes etc, but we have allowed them to do far more damage than in the past. if i can find the link, will post it. 

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4 hours ago, HopeUgood said:

My mistake, I meant isotopes instead of ions.  Are you saying that CO2 levels have no bearing on the greenhouse effect ?  Water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas, but I was under the impression that we do not really know how much global water vapor levels have changed over the centuries?  Do you think methane plays any role in the greenhouse effect? 

 

10 hours ago, Esteban77 said:

CO2 does not form ions. It is a electrostatically neutral covalent molecule. Water vapor is the primary greenhouse gas and without the greenhouse effect the earth would be 30 degrees colder. I have been working in the scientific field for over 23 years.

Hold on. The problem with excess CO2 levels has I believe nothing to do with either its ability to form ions or compounds, or its isotopic nature. It comes from a far more fundamental property of atoms and their respective compounds - atomic absorption. Quantum effects of electron orbitals. CO2 absorbs infrared light. Also partially (or correctly, inversely) why a CO2 laser produces an intense infrared beam. Because of this absorption, excess infrared radiation cannot escape into space. As the levels rise, too much infrared radiation is retained - global warming. Look at Venus. Thats our future if we are not careful.

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1 hour ago, Colt45 said:

There is no question that everything we do has an impact. Mining, driving, eating and wearing animals, etc. Are humans part of nature? Is our evolution and everything associated with that evolution part of nature? If not, what are we?

KG may laugh, but if I recall correctly, he considers winemakers part of terroir  :wink2:

One good asteroid strike and nature will balance itself.

 

colt, absolutely. you recall correctly. it is not perhaps quite so simple but yes. 

and yes, all our actions are intertwined with the fate of the planet/nature. the sad thing is that the generation which is finally twigging to all this is probably too late to do anything. they won't look on us and previous generations fondly.

saw a report this morning that gave the tip-off point for humanity as about 100 years. they reckon if we can last that long, we've a shot. 

personally, i think that the only slim chance we have long term is a massive pandemic which leaves about 10% of humanity left - and it needs to come sooner rather than later. and after that, only if what remains immediately dumps any and all forms of religion. and fat chance of that. 

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15 minutes ago, IanMcLean68 said:

 

Hold on. The problem with excess CO2 levels has I believe nothing to doing with either its ability to form ions or compounds, or its isotopic nature. It comes from a far more fundamental property of atoms and their respective compounds - atomic absorption. Quantum effects of electron orbitals. CO2 absorbs infrared light. Also partially (or correctly, inversely) why a CO2 laser produces an intense infrared beam. Because of this absorption, excess infrared radiation cannot escape into space. As the levels rise, too much infrared radiation is retained - global warming. Look at Venus. Thats our future if we are not careful.

Venus is nice this time of year :D ..... Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the atmosphere and runaway greenhouse effect on Venus attributed to its incredibly high levels of atmospheric CO2?

Also @IanMcLean68
, is that a Tesla coil in your avatar?

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7 hours ago, HopeUgood said:

Venus is nice this time of year :D ..... Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the atmosphere and runaway greenhouse effect on Venus attributed to its incredibly high levels of atmospheric CO2?

Precisely. What amazes me is that people are still not heeding the advice of Carl Sagan. We have a perfect example on either side of Earth of what can happen. Venus shows us what happens if we have a runaway greenhouse, and Mars shows us the stark cold desert that could result from us losing a vast majority of our atmosphere.

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2 minutes ago, cfc1016 said:

078BB008-B6A4-40B6-904D-893BF7A2F677.jpeg

I get the hint. I'm done ? Feel like I'm just quoting common knowledge anyway! Hate to preach! Ha! Sure doesn't look like it today. Hangs head in shame. :blush:

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3 minutes ago, IanMcLean68 said:

Precisely. What amazes me is that people are still not hoarding the advice of Carl Sagan. We have a perfect example on either side of Earth of what can happen. Venus shows us what happens if we have a runaway greenhouse, and Mars shows us the stark cold desert that could result from us losing a vast majority of our atmosphere.

I think I will watch some Carl Sagan youtube tomorrow while I enjoy a cigar!!  I havent seen many of his shows, but have gone to see a Neil deGrasse Tyson presentation. He does a great job of dumbing down and delivering the information in an entertaining manner. 

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