Ramon Allones being flogged to death by Habanos

[99call]

With the talk of the new RA Silver Jubilee, I just thought to myself "I'm sooooooo bored of seeing RA bands" . I've just looked on CCW and counted 42!!!!! "special releases" in RA between 2005 and 2018. 

During the same period their has been 4 special releases by Sancho Panza, and 2! in Fonseca.  

It got me thinking, I would actually be more interested in buying a JLP given the premium treatment, than another RA.   I wonder when Habanos will consider another angle on whats 'special' rather than just name and packaging.  Personally I would be really interested to see a cigar blended from all the different regions of Cuba. The Vuelta Arriba has great 'twang" would be cool to see someone blend it's potential with something smoother from the Pinar De Rio. 

Anyway I hope they don't do RA to death, it would be a shame to create overkill, on what was once quite a unique flavour profile.

[Notsocleaver]

You would think at some point they would release a regular production Petit Robusto, but no...

[99call]

5 minutes ago, Notsocleaver said:

You would think at some point they would release a regular production Petit Robusto, but no...

Ha, yep thats their speciality 

Just take the secondary bands of

5x 'Caprichos" 

5x 'Especiales'

5x 'Patagon

5x Petit Allones

5x Petit Robusto 

put them all in a box, I dare say there wont be any discernible difference as you smoke through them. 

[Danimalia]

What cigars use tobacco from Vuelta Arriba? I'd like to try it. I'm with you on the idea of using tobacco from different regions.

Of course, I'd love to see Cuban tobacco blended with non-Cuban tobacco as well, but I might be committing blasphemy here. A Connecticut Broadleaf wrapper with Cuban binders and fillers would likely be a delicious, medium-bodied maduro. 

[LGC]

People keep standing in line for every single release, so it’s not ending anytime soon. It’s a wonder the RAG and RASCC still exist. The RA profile (at least for current buyers) must be extremely easy to create...

 

 

[BrightonCorgi]

11 minutes ago, Danimalia said:

What cigars use tobacco from Vuelta Arriba? I'd like to try it. I'm with you on the idea of using tobacco from different regions.

Of course, I'd love to see Cuban tobacco blended with non-Cuban tobacco as well, but I might be committing blasphemy here. A Connecticut Broadleaf wrapper with Cuban binders and fillers would likely be a delicious, medium-bodied maduro. 

I have smoked some European cigars with cuban/non-cuban blends, but it's been a long time.

[99call]

2 minutes ago, Brandon said:

 The RA profile (at least for current buyers) must be extremely easy to create...

Yep, it's really noticeable when you look through the 42 RA releases. I'd say only about 8 received critical acclaim. For the ones that fell by the way side, I doubt much effort went into blending them. 

[99call]

17 minutes ago, Danimalia said:

What cigars use tobacco from Vuelta Arriba? I'd like to try it.

JLP, and I'm guessing stuff like Reloba and Guantenamera is also Vuelta Arriba.   If you get a very good JLP Cazadore, it does make you realise the Vuelta Arriba has something very worthy to offer.....this is not the case with Guantenamera! Ha

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

With the talk of the new RA Silver Jubilee, I just thought to myself "I'm sooooooo bored of seeing RA bands" . I've just looked on CCW and counted 42!!!!! "special releases" in RA between 2005 and 2018. 

During the same period their has been 4 special releases by Sancho Panza, and 2! in Fonseca.  

It got me thinking, I would actually be more interested in buying a JLP given the premium treatment, than another RA.   I wonder when Habanos will consider another angle on whats 'special' rather than just name and packaging.  Personally I would be really interested to see a cigar blended from all the different regions of Cuba. The Vuelta Arriba has great 'twang" would be cool to see someone blend it's potential with something smoother from the Pinar De Rio. 

Anyway I hope they don't do RA to death, it would be a shame to create overkill, on what was once quite a unique flavour profile.

It really isn't the fault of Habanos SA.

For Regionals, the distributors put up what they want. They do that 2-3 years before they see the cigars and they pre pay in part. 

RA is a safe bet. They can't touch the global brands.  Fonseca would be a flop. Sancho would require big cojones.  Bolivar/Por larranaga/Ramon Allones/Punch are generally "safe". 

[99call]

1 minute ago, El Presidente said:

It really isn't the fault of Habanos SA.

For Regionals, the distributors put up what they want. They do that 2-3 years before they see the cigars and they pre pay in part. 

RA is a safe bet. They can't touch the global brands.  Fonseca would be a flop. Sancho would require big cojones.  Bolivar/Por larranaga/Ramon Allones/Punch are generally "safe". 

Don't get me wrong Rob, I get the pressures and reality of it all. And I'm sure the idea of cigars sat on the shelf, is a nightmare for many.  I just cant help wondering if there is an alternative concept of "special release" that would both be viable and interesting for Habanos and the end purchaser?

Do you think there will ever be anything like multi region blending? or like what you get with sometimes get with chocolate, single farm Appelation Controlee?

[garbandz]

and there you have it ,straight from the horses.........mouth.

considering things,these marcas would be safer from a sales standpoint.

imagine how fast a La Escepcion robusto or gorda would sell, in regular production.

[BrightonCorgi]

39 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

IFonseca would be a flop. 

A Fonseca Lancero, DC, or A with the tissue would be a hit for the collectors.

[El Presidente]

30 minutes ago, 99call said:

Don't get me wrong Rob, I get the pressures and reality of it all. And I'm sure the idea of cigars sat on the shelf, is a nightmare for many.  I just cant help wondering if there is an alternative concept of "special release" that would both be viable and interesting for Habanos and the end purchaser?

Do you think there will ever be anything like multi region blending? or like what you get with sometimes get with chocolate, single farm Appelation Controlee?

so I am  the only supplier and I make you take 25000 sticks minimum+ have you pre pay it + supply the stock when I am good and ready.............

I wouldn't be changing a thing 

 

Different concepts will evolve when the current ones break down.  Personally i think the Regional concept is nearing the end of its lifecycle. I like your thinking but the current group are unlikely to be the ones to execute it. 

[99call]

31 minutes ago, garbandz said:

and there you have it ,straight from the horses.........mouth.

considering things,these marcas would be safer from a sales standpoint.

imagine how fast a La Escepcion robusto or gorda would sell, in regular production.

Cigars have to sell, but is there ever an excuse for a lack of imagination?

Personally I didn't like the Ramon Allones Extra, as I thought it tasted like burnt beef stock cubes, but it was an interesting cigar, they had invested some time with the old bands, and they had tried something interesting with a fuller bodied blend.  

If you're going to make another RA Petit robusto make it incredibly full, make it incredibly creamy and mild,      but don't make it incredibly like all the other RA Petit robusto's. 

I'm not suggesting Habanos make cigars that don't sell, but Jesus, change the tune. If they did experiment with Vuelta Arriba tobacco blended into premium cigars, wouldn't this cost them less?, Could they spin it in a way that creates hype? This all has to be said on the understanding, that I would happily do without all 'special cigars',  but if they are going to be 'special' lets make sure they're not yesterdays news.

[El Presidente]

2 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

A Fonseca Lancero, DC, or A with the tissue would be a hit for the collectors.

You may be right, but there would need to be a lot of collectors to soak up the production stick minimum.  Otherwise you are forced to bring out a jar etc etc etc to move the last 5/6 000

Distributors talk. They know what moves and what doesn't. Except a few of them, no one wants to take a risk. 

[polarbear]

If you take the global brands out of the equation, I imagine the next best selling marca would be neck and neck between Bolivar and RA
Can blame distributors for going where the sales are.
Sure more Sancho or Fonseca REs would be nice, but outside of the "Internet Cigar Community" they don't really sell unless they have a little flash (Eslavos being a good example) and then that flash costs extra, which the ICC then bitches about.

Personally, I'd rather the RE program get scaled back and the more popular releases be added to the marcas reg production line up or semi reg production LCDH releases, as I feel like too much focus has been put on this bloated marketing idea at the detriment of the standard lines

[BrightonCorgi]

18 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

You may be right, but there would need to be a lot of collectors to soak up the production stick minimum.  Otherwise you are forced to bring out a jar etc etc etc to move the last 5/6 000

Distributors talk. They know what moves and what doesn't. Except a few of them, no one wants to take a risk. 

Well there is just lack of Lanceros on the market; I'll take what I can rarely find (separate rant).  They could re-release discontinued cigars for the regional release or as a new line of limited cigars.  Imagine a limited run of Partagas SdC or RA Coronas? 

The A's could be coffin's like the Particulares or glass tube.  Could be the butt of jokes in a tube that size.  The problem with regionals is the name is just that; they're seldom like the Marca its named for. 

Has there been a regional that was a fantastic smoke, but did not sell well solely from its branding?  

[99call]

40 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Distributors talk. They know what moves and what doesn't. 

I vote the next Asia Pacific Regional be "Partagas De Padron (Culebras)"  The concept being, you get the standard three cigars, but one of them is a ligero bomb. 

Would be great to share with friends, and watch one of them turn white, as they get the 'hot pepper'..........................I'll put that into my (ever expanding) box of bad ideas.

 

 

[El Presidente]

14 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Well there is just lack of Lanceros on the market; I'll take what I can rarely find (separate rant).  They could re-release discontinued cigars for the regional release or as a new line of limited cigars.  Imagine a limited run of Partagas SdC or RA Coronas? 

The A's could be coffin's like the Particulares or glass tube.  Could be the butt of jokes in a tube that size.  The problem with regionals is the name is just that; they're seldom like the Marca its named for. 

Has there been a regional that was a fantastic smoke, but did not sell well solely from its branding?  

The Particulares were a disaster. The A's all but discontinued as people just don't have the time. 

I like your last questionn. Can you pust it up as a seperate thread for us?  

[MrGlass]

1 hour ago, polarbear said:

If you take the global brands out of the equation, I imagine the next best selling marca would be neck and neck between Bolivar and RA

Take a look at the 2016 FOH Humidor Census results and you'll see RA is right up there.

 

[Danimalia]

4 hours ago, 99call said:

I vote the next Asia Pacific Regional be "Partagas De Padron (Culebras)"  The concept being, you get the standard three cigars, but one of them is a ligero bomb. 

Would be great to share with friends, and watch one of them turn white, as they get the 'hot pepper'..........................I'll put that into my (ever expanding) box of bad ideas.

 

 

I actually like that idea. Or they could do up Culebras where the cigars are close to the same but with one variable where each is different. Like you were talking about using tobacco from different regions. You could have a component of the filler in each cigar highlight a different region. 

[NSXCIGAR]

I wouldn't expect a change to the current approach anytime soon. 

It seems the recent strategy of keeping the non-global marcas' regular production vitolas low and pumping out 1-4 special production models every year is likely here to stay. 

RA and Bolivar are probably the main offenders as they are very popular marcas with high demand despite not being global brands. 

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Well there is just lack of Lanceros on the market; I'll take what I can rarely find (separate rant).  They could re-release discontinued cigars for the regional release or as a new line of limited cigars.  Imagine a limited run of Partagas SdC or RA Coronas? 

While I and many others would love this HSA clearly has resisted this approach almost totally. Less than 47 RG is simply not on the agenda for special production nor is resurrecting discontinued models or vitolas. I can count only a handful of exceptions in the 200+ special releases since 2000 and they are:

PSD3, Monte C, RA Allones Extra, PL Lonsdales, Boli Especiales No. 2, RA 898. There have been about a dozen or so ERs with RGs 46 or less. So all of those are well under 10% of all special production models. Basically, a few bones tossed to us traditionalists but that's about all they're willing to give. 

 

[CanuckSARTech]

Moaning about RA being used too much for this stuff is a bit like peeing into the wind.  One day, you're gonna get a face-full of it.

If it wasn't used as a brand for RE releases, then it'd potentially be in jeopardy of being lost in the shuffle.  While I love and always have stock of the RASS, Gigantes, and Superiores especially, I agree that the vast majority of REs from this marca have been meh-at-best.  But, if it weren't for that, many people wouldn't be introduced to the brand as a whole perhaps, and we'd run the risk of the line being discontinued completely, and/or chopped down to a single offering in the RASS, a la the PLPCs damn-near for example.

As Rob mentioned, the "big five" main brands are no-go brands to use for the RE program, per H S.A.'s rules.  And yes, while we can want more / better / more thoughtful / etc as cigar smokers and fans, it's a dollars and cents game - distributors foot the bill, and there's some very specific numbers at play as Rob and others brought up.

If RA (or others, frankly, such as Bolivar, QdO, PL, etc.) weren't used, and frankly, flogged to death by the RE program and other special releases, then it's quite possible that the newer market trends (giant jawbreakers, super Gucci accessorized and decorated packaging, special jars, catering to Asian consumers' wants, catering to the "flaunt it if you got it" culture, etc., etc.) would relegate many of these other marcas to the scrap-heap.  And then we'd all be begrudging things that much more.

All that said, I do love the various ideas that are being brainstormed here.  I remember a number of years ago, Rob and us used to do threads saying Rob had an upcoming meeting with Maique or such-and-such, and "hey guys, give me your best ideas to pass along", etc., etc.  And things used to get brainstormed in open form, and 3 or 5 things would be whittled down into some very nicely refined ideas, and stated as being passed along.  There's been mentions in the past too of H. S.A. and Tabacuba brass being aware of certain comments made by us here on FOH, and from other online communities as well.  And it's not unreasonable - there is a vocal and passionate fanbase here.  And it's a cheap and inexpensive way (read: smart-to-business-people) for them to look at what "the little people want", and get some informal public input.  But, the dollar will always drive the final decisions, for better or worse, as no matter how passionate we or anyone at H. S.A. may be about it all, the market steers things, and they need to ensure maximum profit and proper sales to continue viability.

 

[Duxnutz]

All the RA releases and jacked up regional release prices in general has made me lose interest.