What to say to little Partagas Pete.

[PigFish]

8 hours ago, 99call said:

Morning Ray,

Im not being incendiary, but interested to see if you see if there is any genuine irony in the following:

You're critical of tabacuba along both political and organisational lines, at a time (when to my mind) they seem to trying to do everything possible to appeal and produce it's line toward an American market. 

Big portions, flashy packaging, ultimately disappointing.  I'm not saying this is true, but it "seems" to me that, the new face of the habanos line has a great deal in common with American fast food. 

In conclusion, I would be interested to hear what form you think the Habanos line would take, if Cuba was a part of America, and 100% run my Americans?

I personally don't think that it should be run by Americans! I have never said that. You may have assumed that, but it was never said by me!

I therefore will not entertain the hypothetical argument. It is fiction, much like the an egalitarian society built on the theory of Marx...

What I have said, is that I wish it was run by tobacco professionals. This means people that understand markets, market forces and economics.

You cannot drag someone though a communist school system where the leaders believe that if they allow another voice in government to run for election, that would mean that someone in the US paid them to take over Cuba... and tell them to run a venture where it will need to compete with market forces. In other words Cuban capitalism is an oxymoron... You cannot take a person, teach them that every aspect of freedom and a free economy is bad, elevate them to a leader of a company and then say go run it in a world with competition. Now they have run it in a world with no competition... Anyone moron, even a communist loser can run a monopoly, supported with slave labor. That is not a skill set. When a market is fixed, one with overregulation that it is no longer free, well anyone that can supply cheap labor (below market) can enter that market. Again, this is not a skill. This is simply abuse of those that labor, those that are often referred to as the 'people' in another communist county!

What I have done here before is posted up the entirety of the Montecristo catalog, the non-Cuban catalog and indicated that they had an ample number of sizes and vitolas to satisfy all kinds of customers. They understand that the market is filled with 'individuals' who want what they want, not the 'collective hoard' to be lorded over that needs to be told what to want.

While there will likely be a Gaussian that represents the most liked and disliked (cigar sizes), there will still be customers on the fringes of the curve that can still be sold a cigar.

They will in turn understand that tobacco is not a rarity. That there is not just one pie to share. That more cigars can come from more tobacco planted and the market can be grown! Better cigars can come from better pay to factory rollers. Better control can come from real professionals that have worked their way though the factory to become managers, ones that are proud of the their position and the product that they help produce. They become proud because they work in a merit based system where honest work and success is rewarded, where they are paid commensurate with their position, one that is different from the position below, in responsibility, and in pay. A job they don't want to lose.

Each box from his/her rollers has got his/her stamp of quality on it so that it is known what team(s) are consistently producing the best cigars...! All are rewarded for fine work with bonuses.

Why would it be, that if H SA runs the Cuban catalog and at the same time they run the non-Cuban Montecristo line, that hey would take a model that is successful to them and stick the Cuban catalog with something less than what their market models see as successful? Ah yes, because they are big and bad capitalist and they want to ruin the Cuban tobacco company! That is likely what Tabacuba really thinks of H SA by the way!!!  The answer (for those slow to understand communists) is that no one, I mean no one, tells a communist how to do anything with what he has got in his own country. The only exception might be a bigger group of communists that use the small communist as a puppet. (One might be thinking North Korea here!)

That, therefore, is my answer and it has been well documented many times on this sight!

Thanks for asking... -the Pig

 

[99call]

28 minutes ago, PigFish said:

Thanks for asking... -the Pig

 

I think thats the reason I asked Ray. You obviously liked Cuban cigars in a time not so long ago 80s 90s?  yet, unless I'm missing something, those cigars were the product of the same dis-organised, chaotic government/people?

I'm essentially intrigued, as your frustration would make sense, if you see the cigars you like (in your possession) as being some freak anomaly. Like they some how got through the web of bullshit, and mistakes etc etc, and landed in your hands. 

Did you see (back in the 1990's??), the Habana that produced your dip 4's, your RG Lonsdales etc etc, as being made by the same gang of incompetents? 

 

[Lotusguy]

I really like the Libertador, especially the OR. Will buy more if I can ever see them under $15/stick again.

I also liked the taste of the D6, but the price is out of whack with the rest of the Partagas lineup.

 

[Fugu]

18 hours ago, ChanceSchmerr said:

and in my heart of hearts - I hope it's because the cigar-buying public finally started voting with their wallets and decided to tell HSA that "No, we don't want more crappy slight variations within existing major marcas - we want you to stop cannibalizing your other marcas like RA, SLR and JL

I hear you - albeit not too optimistic about it (yet).

[Doctorossi]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

What I have done here before is posted up the entirety of the Montecristo catalog, the non-Cuban catalog and indicated that they had an ample number of sizes and vitolas to satisfy all kinds of customers. They understand that the market is filled with 'individuals' who want what they want, not the 'collective hoard' to be lorded over that needs to be told what to want.

While I appreciate your aims in this argument, Ray, I find the conclusion you draw from this evidence to be flawed. While you well illustrate the market-awareness that the NC Montecristo brand seems to be employing, that awareness is not always the only limiting factor in commercial behaviors. To execute on that awareness, one needs other conditions to be met, such as having access to sufficient affordable production stock. This can be conveniently accomplished by a company with the ability to draw their stock from any of the abundant crops of all of the free world. Other parties, who may or may not possess the same market-awareness, must draw their production stock from the much more *limited* pool of a single country's harvest- a harvest that also has to satisfy the production needs of 26 other marcas and various other special products. It's not always just about knowing what you'd like to do as a market competitor and comparing some companies and countries can meet that old apples and oranges adage head-on.

[PigFish]

I still like Cuban cigars Stefan. Yet something has happened to them. The question is, what has happened to them and why?

Now if you believe, or if anyone believes that the Cuban cigar is better than it used to be, so be it. We have no position to discuss.

As I see it, this is often 'blamed' on H SA, a part owner of a marketing company. I believe that this is wrongly 'hanged' on the rather successful, private partner. IMHO, the loss of what the Cuban cigar used to be, certainly sits on the shoulders of a bunch of incompetent folks that cannot work successfully outside of a realm of a monopoly. I believe that this is proof of that claim. Instead of leading, they are now following those 'expats' that they hate so much. At one point they were so desperate for money that they needed to get a shot in the arm from a Spanish company, ironically the same country that once owned the island... in order for the cigar company to survive.

Yet it is the Spanish company, or whoever owns them now (Altadis) that gets the blame for the destruction of the Cuban cigar.

Frankly I would not be on this path it it were not that the decisions made at Tabacuba, the deletions, the poor construction and lack of depth of catalog, had put me here. Even if it is or was H SA, company leadership is at fault for jeopardizing the company due to poor management.

The argument, as I see it, is not with me! It is with them. I am but the messenger, a customer, formulating an opinion based on what I know of how the company (a communist country) is run.

Yes, I did complain some about some cigars made in Cuba 20 plus years ago. Yet I was able to find what I liked based on the depth of the catalog. I was not really left with a major complaint based on the fact that I could find good cigars for reasonable prices. I don't really think that is the case any longer. You and others are free to disagree.

Again, I am speculating. I am the customer, not the leader of this company. While I am free to answers questions about my beliefs, I am not the reason why cigars are not properly filled, nor currently made! I may be part of the reason fewer cigars are being sold... simply because I cannot say that I have much reason to buy them in this current state. Yet in the previous time period, where their monopoly was more intact (or whatever the reason may be), I did have a reason.

22 minutes ago, 99call said:

Did you see (back in the 1990's??), the Habana that produced your dip 4's, your RG Lonsdales etc etc, as being made by the same gang of incompetents?

Yes, it was and I cede the point. Yet the catalog was broad enough, and the cigars that I enjoyed were priced at a level were the error rate was acceptable based on the price that I paid. In the time that I have been smoking Habanos, there were better cigars that were better made and more reasonably priced.

For the record, I defend the maker in such cases where the cigars are stored improperly at the consumer level. I always have... Not every problem experience with a Cuban cigar is the result of the maker. This is just an example. But back then they were often stuffing cigars with improperly fermented tobacco (a different problem from a different time) the problems were still leading to a (my) conclusion (today) of incompetent management.

I would say however, that due to the evolution of the NC cigar, they still had a leadership role in the industry and the confidence to follow it. As competition has eaten into their market (or some reason that you may proffer different), this has been lost. The cigars that truly made Cuban cigars unique, a concept understood by what I assumed at the time was competent leadership, was still intact.

So while there were aspects of what I consider evidence of incompetence in the past, I had not concluded the same based on my limited knowledge and experience with them. I simply did not have enough evidence to make the claim. My claim, not about the incompetence of the Marxist model, but of how well the Cuban cigar monopoly fit it, was not yet established.

I have alway accepted that the Cuban cigar was not a pretty cigar (speaking generally). I accepted it as lack of care, but base on the fact that the Cuban cigar could be counted on as superior smoking experience cigar... I accepted it. I have always been willing to accept shortcomings based on a superior smoking experience.

Ultimately then, this is not a then verses now discussion. It is a liner discussion based on the condition, evolution of the Cuban cigar as I see it. For me it has been a matter of assessment of the Cuban cigar over time based on what I have seen as empirical... What I am saying is that my opinion has been formulated over time, and not really an ever-present one.

-R

 

[PigFish]

3 minutes ago, Doctorossi said:

While I appreciate your aims in this argument, Ray, I find the conclusion you draw from this evidence to be flawed. While you well illustrate the market-awareness that the NC Montecristo brand seems to be employing, that awareness is not always the only limiting factor in commercial behaviors. To execute on that awareness, one needs other conditions to be met, such as having access to sufficient affordable production stock. This can be conveniently accomplished by a company with the ability to draw their stock from any of the abundant crops of all of the free world. Other parties, who may or may not possess the same market-awareness, must draw their production stock from the much more *limited* pool of a single country's harvest- a harvest that also has to satisfy the production needs of 26 other marcas and various other special products. It's not always just about knowing what you'd like to do as a market competitor and comparing some companies and countries can meet that old apples and oranges adage head-on.

You have limited your own argument my friend and put yourself in a box. If the Cuban government boxes themselves in, and therefore limits their own market, whose fault is it? Mine? The rest of the market?

Tobacco is not a rarity. Again, rarity and scarcity is largely a Marxist construct in this case. We are talking about completely growing weeds here!!! This is not a project base on 5 axis machining of titanium...

The Cubans are free to work within the realm of the free market when and where they want, or they would not sell cigars, nor sugar, nor nickel anywhere at any time. These are choices... The could choose to produce more and better tobacco products based on models that work in other parts of the world but they don't as a matter of ideology.

They fail due to ideology!

-Ray

[Doctorossi]

31 minutes ago, PigFish said:

Tobacco is not a rarity.

The produce of the Vuelta Abajo is a significantly more finite resource than that of the rest of the world. If Montecristo (Habana) keeps 20-odd formats in production, a la their NC "cousins", something else in the Habanos catalog has to give. I believe that you and I are on the same page about preferring those resources to be used to maintain traditional formats rather than continuing to cancel them in favor of new market-chasing products. However, the island does not have the same capacity to "just do both" that the rest of the world enjoys.

[99call]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

-R

Some good points well made there Ray.

For me there are a couple of points where the cause of the increased wayward nature of the catalogue can be directed elsewhere. 

I think the (completely understandable) desire for cigar merchants to not hold stock, and get it out the door asap, has lead to a very blurry picture as to whats good and whats not. Effectively, the burgeoning cigar enthusiast, cannot make relaxed well poised decisions, they have to either buy blind, or buy at an even more inflated price 4mths from release. 

I think demand of investment market, has insured Habanos have their perfect client. i.e "are there only 500 boxes made?" "yep!" - "are the boxes clean and sealed?" yep!" perfect i'll take 10 boxes".                With such a cynical custom base,  do you not think the maker becoming cynical is sort of a natural chain of events?

They're provided the option to either have the pressure of sticking to the 90yr old blend of a Partagas Coronas,  or having no pressure whatsoever in releasing the Ramon Allones XXL.   "Urrrr excuse me Mr Habanos, this tastes like burnt hair and dog biscuits?!!"       "Errr i think you'll find thats the blend we were going for!".   Unless people stop being these cigars in their droves, you cant blame them for churning them out. 

To me a cigar has to have character, have a blend that suits their size, deliver distinctive flavour, have a bit of history.    Some have pointed out the necessity to have a short robusto, to nip out and enjoy between business meetings!?     hhmmm I think the reality is, these are fashion accessories for people who want to look flashy, but in reality want a cigar short enough, that they can ditch it,(after half an inch) without looking like an idiot.    

I think it's a bloody shame, but I think the quality of the cigar, is related to the maker, dealer, and the customer.   Standards within this chain of purchase, can effect each other, down the chain, and, back up the chain.

It makes me sad too, but I don't think the failings of communism, is the main driving factor, to production of bad cigars. 

 

 

[PigFish]

18 minutes ago, 99call said:

Some good points well made there Ray.

For me there are a couple of points where the cause of the increased wayward nature of the catalogue can be directed elsewhere. 

I think the (completely understandable) desire for cigar merchants to not hold stock, and get it out the door asap, has lead to a very blurry picture as to whats good and whats not. Effectively, the burgeoning cigar enthusiast, cannot make relaxed well poised decisions, they have to either buy blind, or buy at an even more inflated price 4mths from release. 

I think demand of investment market, has insured Habanos have their perfect client. i.e "are there only 500 boxes made?" "yep!" - "are the boxes clean and sealed?" yep!" perfect i'll take 10 boxes".                With such a cynical custom base,  do you not think the maker becoming cynical is sort of a natural chain of events?

They're provided the option to either have the pressure of sticking to the 90yr old blend of a Partagas Coronas,  or having no pressure whatsoever in releasing the Ramon Allones XXL.   "Urrrr excuse me Mr Habanos, this tastes like burnt hair and dog biscuits?!!"       "Errr i think you'll find thats the blend we were going for!".   Unless people stop being these cigars in their droves, you cant blame them for churning them out. 

To me a cigar has to have character, have a blend that suits their size, deliver distinctive flavour, have a bit of history.    Some have pointed out the necessity to have a short robusto, to nip out and enjoy between business meetings!?     hhmmm I think the reality is, these are fashion accessories for people who want to look flashy, but in reality want a cigar short enough, that they can ditch it,(after half an inch) without looking like an idiot.    

I think it's a bloody shame, but I think the quality of the cigar, is related to the maker, dealer, and the customer.   Standards within this chain of purchase, can effect each other, down the chain, and, back up the chain.

It makes me sad too, but I don't think the failings of communism, is the main driving factor, to production of bad cigars. 

 

 

You too make great points here that I agree with. So the question remains, in a society were all means of production is run by the state, who is to blame for the decline of the Cuban cigar? The answer has to be then, the Cuban government!

Market forces are very much as you say (MHO) and therefore what is lacking is leadership. Marketing. Inclusion... forethought.

Inventory can be controlled by even the most meager of businessmen... Industry leadership, not really!

My argument is based on what I see the Cuban cigar can be, regardless of who controls it. Frankly, I am making an argument... I don't care who controls it, as long as I get what I want!!! That is the consumer in me.

It is shortsighted, MHO to allow the market, created by others, to overwhelm you. To cause you to abandon your traditional roots. There is room for more cigars in the catalog, and the NC makers prove that. The key is to understand that some day your traditional cigars will likely be vogue again. One should lay claim to them and keep them alive and at the same time not gamble on losing customers that have been key to your past successes. Inclusion and depth of market then is my desire.

1 hour ago, 99call said:

 With such a cynical custom base,  do you not think the maker becoming cynical is sort of a natural chain of events?

Yes, certainly, but one not need to put all one's eggs in one basket. It is not wise nor forward thinking. It is poor management for all except the highly leveraged start-up that has little reputation and little of their own capital to lose!

One aspect of keying on the luxury market is in understanding the enduring reputation of quality and maximizing it. That is something that the newcomer does not have and only the ignorant destroys.

I thought I read it somewhere that families of wealth don't usually survive past 3 generations. This is due to complacency. I proffer that Tabacuba has been complacent with their monopoly and the quality of their cigars is evidence of that!

Cheers all, and thanks for partaking!

-Ray

[blank]

The Cuban cigar model is currently based on

The More for Less System

less cigars rolled, less rollers needed, less boxes & packaging made

BIGGER margin per cigar

for the same volume of tobacco used.

 

 

[99call]

13 hours ago, PigFish said:

-Ray

Thats the debatable point Ray, your talking as though the Cuban cigars market is on it's knees. It may be chaotic but aren't they making sale increases of 4-5% every year?

I think there is a huge difference between them making shit cigars and not being able to sell them, and making shit cigars, and them selling like hot cakes. 

Of course we would prefer times gone by where we could, walk into a merchant store, and have not only a huge catalogue of cigars, but for them to be dating back for at least 6yrs, but it doesn't benefit the maker, and if doesn't benefit the dealer. 

The internet has allowed the merchant to clear their shelves through clever advertising, and the general popularity of artisanal "rare" goods (in the modern day).

Personally (although I don't support it) if HSA was a hot dog vendor, and they had worked out a formula, whereby they could make a ft long, seemingly appetising dog, that was infact filled with rusks, water and reclaimed fat, and people couldn't get enough. to the point, they didn't even need you to cook it. They just wanted to buy boxes of 50 from you to take home.   !????? hmmm sounds like a Gordon Gekko wet dream to me. 

You and me (in this conundrum) are the guy on the street, wondering what happened to that independant vendor, who used to sell the product that had some integrity and quality. I do agree with you however that there is room in the market for a small production of cigars, that are marketed toward you and me. A line of very robust, age worthy, aromatic coronas, is not beyond the wit of man. But, you tell that hot dog vendor, that is taking cash hand over fist, for bloated saline sausages. "Hey Mr, what about me?" 

I think HSA are pushing at the door of least resistance. I don't see them as having lost their way. I see them as being right in the sweet spot.  As a business model, I see them to portraying the majority of the trends in modern business. I.e the most cynical possible product, for the highest possible price

Strangely I think the old 'lag' in sales of cuban cigars, is now going to occur in the hands of the collectors. In another 20yrs, when the negative word is out about the poor quality of whichever of the 9!!!!! Ramon Allones petit robustos out there.     I think the assumption of being able to sell RE EL cigars at 200%-300% profit is going to taper off.  If I bought at auction, and had to choose between a discontinued box of 2007 box of Quai D'Orsay Pantatelas at £400    or a box of 2007 ERDM Vikingos?? at £1500. Ha!!!?? it would be a bullshit choice, no competition. I think a great deal of collections will be finding that their bulletproof investment, will actually just be full of holes. and they will be reduced to selling them at a little more than cost, or smoking them, themselves.

A wooden handmade Norwegian childs toy, may be superior in pretty much every way to a Taiwanese piece of shit made out of neon plastic.   It wont stop the child from gravitating towards the later. 

 

[Smokin_Safari]

Monte Double Edmundo? The draw, or complete lack of resistance all together. My 7 year old daughter can roll a tighter stick. I like work in general and like working for a nice draw, but nothing here at all...

And Monte Petit #2? Well, mmmm, it's just, well, another Monte......

[PigFish]

4 hours ago, 99call said:

Thats the debatable point Ray, your talking as though the Cuban cigars market is on it's knees. It may be chaotic but aren't they making sale increases of 4-5% every year?

I think there is a huge difference between them making shit cigars and not being able to sell them, and making shit cigars, and them selling like hot cakes. 

Of course we would prefer times gone by where we could, walk into a merchant store, and have not only a huge catalogue of cigars, but for them to be dating back for at least 6yrs, but it doesn't benefit the maker, and if doesn't benefit the dealer. 

The internet has allowed the merchant to clear their shelves through clever advertising, and the general popularity of artisanal "rare" goods (in the modern day).

Personally (although I don't support it) if HSA was a hot dog vendor, and they had worked out a formula, whereby they could make a ft long, seemingly appetising dog, that was infact filled with rusks, water and reclaimed fat, and people couldn't get enough. to the point, they didn't even need you to cook it. They just wanted to buy boxes of 50 from you to take home.   !????? hmmm sounds like a Gordon Gekko wet dream to me. 

You and me (in this conundrum) are the guy on the street, wondering what happened to that independant vendor, who used to sell the product that had some integrity and quality. I do agree with you however that there is room in the market for a small production of cigars, that are marketed toward you and me. A line of very robust, age worthy, aromatic coronas, is not beyond the wit of man. But, you tell that hot dog vendor, that is taking cash hand over fist, for bloated saline sausages. "Hey Mr, what about me?" 

I think HSA are pushing at the door of least resistance. I don't see them as having lost their way. I see them as being right in the sweet spot.  As a business model, I see them to portraying the majority of the trends in modern business. I.e the most cynical possible product, for the highest possible price

Strangely I think the old 'lag' in sales of cuban cigars, is now going to occur in the hands of the collectors. In another 20yrs, when the negative word is out about the poor quality of whichever of the 9!!!!! Ramon Allones petit robustos out there.     I think the assumption of being able to sell RE EL cigars at 200%-300% profit is going to taper off.  If I bought at auction, and had to choose between a discontinued box of 2007 box of Quai D'Orsay Pantatelas at £400    or a box of 2007 ERDM Vikingos?? at £1500. Ha!!!?? it would be a bullshit choice, no competition. I think a great deal of collections will be finding that their bulletproof investment, will actually just be full of holes. and they will be reduced to selling them at a little more than cost, or smoking them, themselves.

A wooden handmade Norwegian childs toy, may be superior in pretty much every way to a Taiwanese piece of shit made out of neon plastic.   It wont stop the child from gravitating towards the later. 

 

... no argument here. As you have stated, today, they are largely on the money (literally). I am however, not an isolated individual. I know many like me. This makes my argument more concrete, to me at least. 

The point is, there are a lot of seasoned smokers pissed at them. These are not the guys that buy 100 cigars a year, but the guys that have bought 1000 cigars/year, year after year after year...

Tabacuba has put us on the street! This means that some of us are looking other places. Online vendors, once only CC cigar retailers are offering other products.

Look at the daily smoke thread. An area where you rarely have seen a NC cigar... Now, all over the place. You would have to be a blind man to miss it. These are lost cigar sales, or cigar sales made by other companies. Me... If I were Tabacuba, losing my market share, well, it would piss me off.

My only point is, 'times a' chang'n.' Tossing customers that have historically bought 1, 2, 5, or 10K cigars for a fast buck is frankly stupid! They find a better cigar on the street and you lost them for now. They change their tastes, get disgusted with you, they are gone...!

I was at a small herf this weekend. Met up with a great member here as a matter of fact. Small group, he and I spent most of our time together taking about this forum... "You" were brought up... too... -LOL The point is, there were a few guys talking the state of the Cuban cigar (as usual). The people that quietly gather and run down the 'two band' programs are not at all a rarity. Not in the seasoned smoker world anyway.

You know what one guy wanted from the cigars I brought? He wanted a SLR 'A' and a RG CE. AND, no, he does not know how much I like them. He is not a member here! I took his Diplo 3, and the other member here took a Sir Winnie. No one wanted the layer of RE's and LE's. We found common ground immediately.

Are they on the skids, literally? I would not know... But look at what they are doing and how they are doing it. Frankly, they are acting more like a start-up company than one with 100 plus years tradition. I see little difference looking at the Cuban catalog verses the Acid cigar catalog... (read whimsically).

I would have little ground to stand on if the $20 and $30 a stick cigars were phenomenal, but they 'ain't.' If the price of a good cigar was just going up, I could piss about it, but if I got what I paid for the cliche would not be a cliche but a statement of fact. This is not the case. Cuban cigars are rapidly becoming a swindle (MHO).

There are diehards, people that will never change. I used to think I was one of them. I have to wonder now. I am not really looking yet, but the day will likely come. What I am doing again this year is NOT buying Habanos! This is yet another year that I could have bought 500 to 1000 cigar and instead said pass.

Having good, relatively inexpensive smaller cigars on hand means that I smoke more. Not good for me, but good for everyone in the retail chain that gets my business. Frankly I don't care who makes my cigars as long as they are good. Loyalist now disenfranchised... I am not the only one. This is one way old companies go under! That is my only point (beyond the crap that they are selling today...). Old companies that don't change with the times are certainly at risk. Old companies that abandon their core market principles and loyal customers are at risk as well... The market leader makes room for more customers and looks to increase market share from both worlds!

Cheers! -Ray

[99call]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

Old companies that don't change with the times are certainly at risk. Old companies that abandon their core market principles and loyal customers are at risk as well... The market leader makes room for more customers and looks to increase market share from both worlds!

This is very true. I'm in the same boat to some degree in that 99% of my buying habits are pretty frozen in pre 2007 European stock.  It's sad, and I am angry about it, but a do find myself getting more angry with people pre-ordering terrible releases, like they are collecting baseball cards.    As I said, hopefully this idea of these cigars being rarities in the future, will turn out to be a dead rubber, and things might return to normal..........fingers crossed.        

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

This is very true. I'm in the same boat to some degree in that 99% of my buying habits are pretty frozen in pre 2007 European stock.  It's sad, and I am angry about it, but a do find myself getting more angry with people pre-ordering terrible releases, like they are collecting baseball cards.    As I said, hopefully this idea of these cigars being rarities in the future, will turn out to be a dead rubber, and things might return to normal..........fingers crossed.        

Yep... yep, yep!

I don't get mad at others for their tastes, or lack thereof. I do get my share of laughs however! I am certainly grateful for vision to buy a hoard of what I liked when many others were rejecting them.

Maybe I will smoke a Londales today...

-the Pig

[ErikB]

Short , fat but expensive : not something I gravitate towards


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[RijkdeGooier]

Always the same - price/quality is not on the already steep value line for Cuban cigars. There are better value alternatives out there.

On exception is the Bolivar Libertadores - it's a nice cigar but not a true Bolivar for me.