The unsaid code of fakers!?

[99call]

Something that I've wondered for a long old time. Why is it that those producing fakes go to the trouble of:

Making a cedar box

Branding it up

Rolling semi passable cigars

Stealing/making bands 

etc etc etc

Then for some unknowable reason putting on the tax sticker upside down???

Essentially what I'm wondering is. Is there a unspoken agreement in Habana, that as long as fakers telegraph to those with even a scrap on knowledge that the product is bogus, are they allowed to continue with that understanding?. I.e As long as its only nubes getting swindled, then its ok?    There must be something in it, as they would get so much more success if they had the bar code the right way round. Not from me, or you guys, but the general passer by  Thoughts? is this purposeful telegraphing!

 

[BrightonCorgi]

Authentic material is for some fakes (bands, codes, chervon's, etc...).  There are fakes from obvious to very hard to tell.  I've seen reboxed fakes from Cuba, so everything was authentic except they were not Habanos; just Cuban rolled cigars

..

[99call]

HA, I have also recently bought, and then subsequently sold back to another collector two original boxes, with very good looking/smelling monte 2's, that turned out to be stuffed with floor sweepings. I was horrified, he was horrified. All ended well though, and sadly it just goes to show how desperate some people are there to earn a crust. 

 

[joeypots]

There was a story about a vendor from t beginning of the 2000s who would mix counterfeits in with high end authentic cigars. How does one protect oneself from that? Trusted vendors.

[99call]

23 minutes ago, joeypots said:

There was a story about a vendor from t beginning of the 2000s who would mix counterfeits in with high end authentic cigars. How does one protect oneself from that? Trusted vendors.

Definitely agree with the merits of trusted vendors. However, I would only buy aged stock with auction provenance, or from someone I new to be a trusted collector. Case in point, the only fakes I've ever bought, was from someone who was as shocked as I was, and paid me back in full, the same day.

Hunting is fun too, yes. If I wanted to buy a 20yr old box of Monte 2's I could go to Pall Mall in London, and remortgage my house. But It's much more exciting to sniff something out, and score big, without have to sell you're kidneys in return.

[NSXCIGAR]

14 hours ago, 99call said:

Something that I've wondered for a long old time. Why is it that those producing fakes go to the trouble of:

Making a cedar box

Branding it up

Rolling semi passable cigars

Stealing/making bands 

etc etc etc

Then for some unknowable reason putting on the tax sticker upside down???

Essentially what I'm wondering is. Is there a unspoken agreement in Habana, that as long as fakers telegraph to those with even a scrap on knowledge that the product is bogus, are they allowed to continue with that understanding?. I.e As long as its only nubes getting swindled, then its ok?    There must be something in it, as they would get so much more success if they had the bar code the right way round. Not from me, or you guys, but the general passer by  Thoughts? is this purposeful telegraphing!

 

There are quite a few obvious fakes out there, but I've seen some very good ones as well. Most people can't authenticate a box, and especially in Cuba, where all cigars are Cuban anyway, perhaps they feel like they can get away with more as it's far more likely that there could be some shenanigans where someone does know someone in a factory, simply used an old box, made it look good--but the cigars are genuine. Why anyone would buy street boxes when genuine customs are about the same price I have no idea. 

As far as the rest of the world, I don't know how they continually get away with poor fakes. I got offered a glass-top Cohiba 5-box w/ cellophane last week in fact. I mean, the glass-top Cohiba is the most famous of all fake CC packaging by far, and yet people are still putting effort into them. Apparently they look good enough to sell to some bozo. Perhaps HSA ought to consider adopting the glass-top! Apparently it's very aesthetically pleasing. 

11 hours ago, joeypots said:

There was a story about a vendor from t beginning of the 2000s who would mix counterfeits in with high end authentic cigars. How does one protect oneself from that? Trusted vendors.

I would be very skeptical that I could not spot the lack of uniformity in a box of 25. And then, lo and behold, the cigars that appear to be visually inconsistent smoke like crap as well...

In this day and age, it would be difficult to stay "trusted" very long with those kinds of practices. It's almost better to sell all fakes than try to mix some in with genuine cigars. That would be very ill-advised, IMO. 

I'm more concerned that there are plenty of vendors whose reputations are quite soiled that are still out there, and have been for years, selling fake CCs. And I'm talking they've been at it for many, many years. I guess people get sucked in by the $229 Cohiba 1966 (yes, it's out there). I don't understand how this is possible, but then again, it's very hard to bring down online vendors. They're like hydra and can morph into other sites and iterations. 

[maxcjs0101]

12 hours ago, 99call said:

HA, I have also recently bought, and then subsequently sold back to another collector two original boxes, with very good looking/smelling monte 2's, that turned out to be stuffed with floor sweepings. I was horrified, he was horrified. All ended well though, and sadly it just goes to show how desperate some people are there to earn a crust. 

 

Sorry to derail the discussion but im guessing you watched CO to use that term. May i know how sure are you (or Bryan Glynn who is super butthurt for anything Cuban Cohiba) short filler are always "floor sweepings"? 

[99call]

Ha, very sure. Especially as it was bundles of actual wrapper leaf in the middle of the cigar. 100% fake.  I have seen Bryan Glynn dissections in the past, Personally I don't think there is ever any reason to dissect a cigar unless your 100% sure its fake, and if you're 100% its fake, what really do you stand to learn.  The only reason I pulled the cigar apart, after attempting to smoke it, is a needed photographic proof as a recourse to the seller.

I think the problem Bryan Glynn has, is that, although he is strongly suggests his thoughts are opinions, he often baits people with counter opinions, suggesting his opinions hold more weight, i.e. facts.

I have no leaning one way or another, apart from when he's cut open something he believes to be real. On the basis every next cigar, could be the best cigar you've ever smoked, I don't think there is ever a reason to slice what you know to be a genuine cuban.   

[joeypots]

21 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 

I would be very skeptical that I could not spot the lack of uniformity in a box of 25. And then, lo and behold, the cigars that appear to be visually inconsistent smoke like crap as well...

 

True that, but what if one buys the box blind?

[NSXCIGAR]

Just now, joeypots said:

True that, but what if one buys the box blind?

I meant after I receive it. I might get fooled once, but I would ever purchase from that vendor again, and I would probably be trying to return the product, and passing along the experience with everyone I know.

[maxcjs0101]

7 hours ago, 99call said:

 

Ha, very sure. Especially as it was bundles of actual wrapper leaf in the middle of the cigar. 100% fake.  I have seen Bryan Glynn dissections in the past, Personally I don't think there is ever any reason to dissect a cigar unless your 100% sure its fake, and if you're 100% its fake, what really do you stand to learn.  The only reason I pulled the cigar apart, after attempting to smoke it, is a needed photographic proof as a recourse to the seller.

I think the problem Bryan Glynn has, is that, although he is strongly suggests his thoughts are opinions, he often baits people with counter opinions, suggesting his opinions hold more weight, i.e. facts.

I have no leaning one way or another, apart from when he's cut open something he believes to be real. On the basis every next cigar, could be the best cigar you've ever smoked, I don't think there is ever a reason to slice what you know to be a genuine cuban.   

 

So just because they have short filler you assume its "floor sweepings"?

How about if they were genuine Tripa Corta (JLPs/Quinteros) and then rebanded as fakes? 

[99call]

Wow wow!!, I think you seem to bit a bit angry with Mr Glynn, I don't think your frustrations are best placed with myself.

So if you would like the full story, they were bought from a family who were selling off a family member who had deceased possessions. The original box that was sent had an 'X' scored into it on the top (something the family member had not picked up). As I've previously mentioned, they were completely unsmokeable, and tasted disgusting. Upon opening them up they were filled with tiny scraps of wrapper leaf.

Now, if in your opinion thats completely normal, then we must agree to disagree. The individual re-inbursed, me, and has subsiquently gone on to sell me other legit parts of the collection, that are 100% legit and some of the best smokes I've ever had.

If it makes you feel any better the owner has gone on to inspect another box that had an X on the top in comparison to one of the good boxes, and he himself is convinced the gent who's died had bought two dud boxes, and effectively scored X's on them accordingly. 

I have no strong feelings on people unfairly righting off cigars with short filler, so I am not the enemy Max, maybe the best place for this line of questioning is the comments section of Mr Glynn's you tube video's?

 

 

 

[joeypots]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I meant after I receive it. I might get fooled once, but I would ever purchase from that vendor again, and I would probably be trying to return the product, and passing along the experience with everyone I know.

Well, that's what happened. The guys reputation was ruined when people visiting his shop saw the counterfeits being  banded and mixed in with real cigars. The cigar boards, at least the ones I frequented in 2004 or 5, were loaded with comments about the situation. I did confront him about the allegation. He denied it but sent me 3 cigars after I told him that I had smoked three from the box and they were dog rockets. Trying to get money back from a thief is a rough road to travel but at least there is satisfaction in knowing that his online business from loads of people who were on the cigar forums of the day  was ruined. That's why I answered my rhetorical question with the answer, "Trusted vendors".

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, joeypots said:

Well, that's what happened. The guys reputation was ruined when people visiting his shop saw the counterfeits being  banded and mixed in with real cigars...

1 hour ago, joeypots said:

...He denied it... 

I must say, that is quite remarkable, and if true, well...