FDA CHOOSES OPTION 1, WILL REGULATE PREMIUM CIGARS

[wabashcr]

I'm seeing an awful lot of sky-is-falling doom and gloom posted online -- like it's going to destroy the boutique NC industry. Does anyone have a read on why people are leaping to that conclusion, when there's a process to get cigars released post-2007 approved for sale?

(Not arguing that this is terrible. Just trying to separate the hyperbole from the facts.)

I think it's because most boutique brands tend to thrive on constantly releasing new product in smaller batches, which will be prohibitively expensive under the new testing and approval process. Most of the boutique brands aren't moving enough standard production, existing blends to stay in business. It's the limited and special release stuff that butters their bread.

[Lotusguy]

I think it's because most boutique brands tend to thrive on constantly releasing new product in smaller batches, which will be prohibitively expensive under the new testing and approval process. Most of the boutique brands aren't moving enough standard production, existing blends to stay in business. It's the limited and special release stuff that butters their bread.

If this puts the Caldwell "Lost and Found" crap out of business, it would be ALMOST worth it to have this regulation

[TomF]

If this puts the Caldwell "Lost and Found" crap out of business, it would be ALMOST worth it to have this regulation

I was thinking the same thing about Gurkha.

[maxcjs0101]

In my opinion, i think the cigar industry is resilient. Worse comes to worse, the cigar manufacturers can sell them to countries such as the EU or Asia where (i think) their presence is small.

[GasGuy82]

I could honestly see this entire situation benefiting the Cubans. NC Brands would be forced to go and get a larger share of the world market and in many cases, US consumers would likely start buying these boutique cigars from overseas vendors in OZ, CH, HK etc. The NC brands will continue to produce in Nicaragua and the Dominican their boutique blends, they will just get into the US in a roundabout way. The newest Tatuaje will take on mythical status with NC smokers because they are forbidden fruit in the US. You have to know a vendor who will ship to the US and then hope it slips past the man.

Meanwhile, something will get worked out with the Cubans where any of the cigars they produced before 2008 are grandfathered in. They will claim they were violated by the embargo and that all of these cigars would have been sold in the US without it. I could see the Cubans even bringing back discontinued vitolas in different marcas to make up for the post 2008 cigars that they have issues bringing in or it doesn't make commercial sense. EL's will still command a high price due to the fact they can't get past the FDA and forget about a Regional unless they do it once every five years. The upside is the US Regionals will likely always be aged. The downside is they will be even more exorbitantly expensive than some of the ones we are already complaining about.

Of course, the best question of all. What the hell does the FDA know about cigar rolling and blends? The manufacturers could change the blend and the FDA would likely have no clue. A leaf is a leaf is a leaf to these guys. The answer to any perceived difference is "natural variation in raw materials". This is a natural product.

[TCContender]

Of course, the best question of all. What the hell does the FDA know about cigar rolling and blends? The manufacturers could change the blend and the FDA would likely have no clue. A leaf is a leaf is a leaf to these guys. The answer to any perceived difference is "natural variation in raw materials". This is a natural product.

When has ignorance ever stopped the government from ramming nanny-state nonsense legislation and regulations down the throats of taxpayers? In fact, the less these types understand, the more likely they are to "regulate". Hopefully, the house bill in the works now will eviscerate this ridiculous (but not surprising) government overreach.

[skalls]

Except none of the Cuban cigars would be exempted. So every single Cuban cigar would have to go through the FDA's licensing structure to be sold in America when the embargo is lifted.

The doom and gloom is the licensing was said to be ridiculously high which would make Canadian prices appear cheap compared to what they would cost in the States, but that's using several assumptions and nothing that we actually know for sure.

[planetary]

I think it's because most boutique brands tend to thrive on constantly releasing new product in smaller batches, which will be prohibitively expensive under the new testing and approval process. Most of the boutique brands aren't moving enough standard production, existing blends to stay in business. It's the limited and special release stuff that butters their bread.

But the cost hasn't been announced yet. Why do we think it'll be prohibitively expensive?

EDIT: What skalls said above, as I was typing this response.

[wabashcr]

If this puts the Caldwell "Lost and Found" crap out of business, it would be ALMOST worth it to have this regulation

Ha, couldn't agree more. I enjoy some of Caldwell's stuff, like the Eastern Standard line. But that whole Lost and Found scam is just offensive. Definitely a silver lining.

[wabashcr]

But the cost hasn't been announced yet. Why do we think it'll be prohibitively expensive?

EDIT: What skalls said above, as I was typing this response.

The process for approval is all laid out. Manufacturers and retailers have access to the requirements, and based on how the FDA regulates other tobacco products, they have a pretty good idea of what to expect.

The FDA themselves have confirmed as much:

The FDA confirmed that all required applications could “cost hundreds of thousands of dollars” per application. "It's an average and there's a range," said a representative from the FDA during the conference call.

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/fda-ruling-threatens-cigar-industry-18788

[CaptainQuintero]

How many tens of millions of Cuban cigars get into the US already?

What's to stop NC manufacturers having warehouses in Geneva or Hong Kong and do the same?

[NSXCIGAR]

Ah, the myth that government regulation keeps us safe...

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=125371

Remember, "the government" is just a group of politicians who are incentivized to get re-elected. Even if government legislation could keep us safe (which it mostly doesn't), these politicians are not incentivized to actually do so. Most regulations are simply vessels for fine-print pork, protectionism or subsidy to favored industry masquerading as "public safety."

There are already laws preventing those under 18 from smoking. Yet they still smoke. Perhaps the government's laws don't work. Or perhaps they should enforce them better. Something's wrong, but why are we letting them keep trying without even asking whether what they've done so far has been effective in achieving it's stated ends.

As a side note, the FDA nor congress even has the authority to ban anything. That authority isn't granted in the constitution. That's why they passed a constitutional amendment to ban alcohol in 1919, and needed another to repeal it. 100 years ago, the constitution was still somewhat respected. Now, the people just sit back and let congress create departments that essentially make law, and congress does nothing to check it.

As Piggy notes, it's not enough to smoke cigars or recruit new smokers. We must realize what road we are going down, have the courage to call out the anti-smoking lobby and say no. It's the most un-PC thing to do, but it must be done. It's slipping away and has already gone too far...and it doesn't look good 20 years from now from my vantage point.

Remember 20 years ago--smoking sections in certain restaurants were the only friction encountered by smokers. And many times, that option was offered by the proprietor voluntarily, not forced on him by the state. Now what world do we live in? What a utopia it was back then. Second-hand smoke turned out to be a fraud and a bogeyman. But have the laws been lessened based on the new information? No.

BTW, the US government's greatest so-called "achievements"--Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are all unsustainable and bankrupt, not to mention wracked with fraud. Government schools are a disgrace. The welfare system has caused a previously declining poverty rate to stagnate. Prohibition of substances has created a drug and crime problem where there previously was none. Can we maybe ask them to politely step aside?

Using the government to "keep you safe" is usually a pact with the devil.

[PigFish]

I don't recall ever seeing the thread mentioned above. Some of your posts @NSXCigar are very succinctly put, accurate representations of the truth of the matter.

To simply put it, there are aspects of a society that make it great. For me it is as simple and personal liberty. The further we get away from that (the founding principles of USA) the worse the country gets.

I have never seen a more egocentric generation before my own. My father's generation was not anywhere near as wanton as mine. Gimme, gimme, gimme more! I think the next generation is likely even worse than mine! We now have a 200 trillion + unfunded liability. Someones kids and grandkid are going to get stuck my generations poor judgement and our bills. I pity them...

Once the powers in government discovered that they could tax the unborn (read that as debt) and lay their spending on that of another generation with no reckoning, our country has declined.

Wealth an power can be had many ways. The hardest way is to earn it. You can marry it, steal it, inherit it and of course tax to get it! Oh, I said steal it already!!!

Coming full circle, these tobacco taxes are nothing more than theft. And the money is what it is all about. Protecting kids my eye... All this legislative crap hides behind the cover of protecting kids. It never starts nor ends there. In the fine print are the tariffs and taxes and the means to grow government and spend more tax money.

If you want to write a law that changes the smoking age (for example) to 21 years of age, that law is simple and necessarily pure.

A resident of the state of California needs to be 21 years of age or older to purchase and smoke tobacco. There, that is the law! Yet that is not what they get in California. Why, because that is not really what the law is about. These laws are about acquiring money and power... They create a cooperative where lawyers, lobbyists and politicians get power and wealth on the backs of the consumer. If you cannot see it, you are blind.

-Piggy

[NSXCIGAR]

How many tens of millions of Cuban cigars get into the US already?

What's to stop NC manufacturers having warehouses in Geneva or Hong Kong and do the same?

Yes, theoretically everyone could just migrate online, but it would be easy to spot such a large increase in retail imports. There are simply not that many CC shipments for personal use coming into the US. Also, shipping single boxes from offshore for all the NC manufacturers who have existing distribution networks in the US would be very expensive and raise prices for consumers anyways.

It would only take a few hefty fines and/or penalties for dodging duties and taxes for the NC manufacturers to just forget it and take it on the chin. Remember, the existing manufacturers will ultimately benefit from reduced competition and they all get to raise prices together.

This is a similar pattern in regulation. Before implementation, the big names come out against it. After passage, they embrace it and benefit from it. This is because there's usually a short term profit loss, but then they eventually see the unexpected profit gain shortly thereafter and they shut up, and many large entrenched interests end up actually supporting, endorsing and actually even writing further regulations and legislation for the government.

[Orion21]

Coming full circle, these tobacco taxes are nothing more than theft. And the money is what it is all about. Protecting kids my eye... All this legislative crap hides behind the cover of protecting kids. It never starts nor ends there. In the fine print are the tariffs and taxes and the means to grow government and spend more tax money.

-Piggy

This is how it works for everything when it comes to increased regulations. It's the government or government agencies protecting the general public from some evil doer. In this case it's the evil tobacco industry . . . that has been neutered for DECADES. They are using new nicotine delivery technology as an excuse to regulate and tax even more because efforts had stalled in the past. The Boogie Man methodology that is used to scare people into supporting these types of social engineering regulations is dishonest at best.

To our respected member who supports the age 21 law I ask you this:

Is a 21 year old anymore responsible or prepared to make a decision to smoke a cigar than his/her 18 year old self?

I mean, an 18 year old is apparently responsible and mature enough to join the army and lay down your life for your country . . . but not buy a cigar? Seriously, you cigar smokers that continue to support these laws and regulations "make sad in my heart ". You honestly don't get that every little additional bit you allow them to take of your liberty just hastens the day you won't be able to smoke a cigar, period. The day will come when the tobacco lobby is too weak, the companies too small and make up a minuscule part of the overall economy and employment. At that point some smug politician, and based on current politicians pushing these bans you can deduce the party affiliation, will announce all tobacco based products as illegal and a threat to the public health. But of course weed will be exempt because the tax revenue is a new kind of drug itself . . .

[Liga1069]

I lurk, but don't post much here, tough to break into a new group.

That said, The more I think about this bit with the FDA, the more pissed I get. Thought I'd go to JR and CI and see what they had to say about this....hang on, it has to be on their website somewhere...ummm...really? Nothing? Not even a CRA ad?

I've done a little internet sleuthing and found that General and Altidas have not lifted a finger to fight this. And for the most part, American's favorite online retailers will pretty much be left alone. Gee I wonder who owns the most popular online sticks?

***General Cigars***
- Olivia
- Macanudo
- Cohiba
- Partagas
- La Gloria Cubana
- CAO
- Punch
- Hoyo de Monterrey
- Excalibur
- Foundry

***Altidas***
- H. Upmann
- Montecristo
- Romeo y Julieta
- Siglo Limited Resserve

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[scap99]

Screw it, I'm gonna go pirate.

[LukeC]

... just picked up a new 80% lower this weekend! For those of you who don't know what I am talking about, it will just make you mad so you best not Google it! -LOL

-the Pig

Oh I've got mine. Need another though.

[Blazer]

But the cost hasn't been announced yet. Why do we think it'll be prohibitively expensive?

EDIT: What skalls said above, as I was typing this response.

In order to have a new drug approved companies must conduct clinical studies mandated by the FDA which are costly and time consuming. In addition, drug companies must pay what's called "user fees" for the FDA to review their drugs, last I Heard the user fee was something like two million bucks. While I don't foresee the level of detail required for cigar manufacturers, if your launching two new blends a year, in 4-5 different sizes per blend, that's going to get pretty expensive. In essence, the cigar industry will fund the development and salaries of this new arm of the FDA designed to regulate them putting many of the smaller companies out of business.

[eswary]

Looks like I will continue to buy my cigars from Europe, Russia, and Australia even "if" the embargo is lifted. Which I think is still a long ways away....long ways

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TomF]

https://youtu.be/zjDx72uf7Is

[sactochris]

I knew the old all taxes are theft bit would pop up here.

[soutso]

I knew the old all taxes are theft bit would pop up here.

If not theft, then at the very least the constant raising of tobacco taxes are cynical.

If tobacco is so bad then why not simply make it illegal?

They don't have the guts to make it illegal just as they don't have the balls to instill

a fairer way to tax us. They take the easy way out each and every time.

[Stogieninja]

I'm seeing an awful lot of sky-is-falling doom and gloom posted online -- like it's going to destroy the boutique NC industry. Does anyone have a read on why people are leaping to that conclusion, when there's a process to get cigars released post-2007 approved for sale?

(Not arguing that this is terrible. Just trying to separate the hyperbole from the facts.)

I asked the same question on another forum about the "substantial equivalent" process.

In addition to the other responses, just take a look at the FDA's record on new cigarette approvals. How many new products have you seen hit the market?

Here's an article from 2013:

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/03/how-the-fda-is-keeping-new-cigarettes-off-the-market/273679/

In those four years (09-13) four years, the FDA approved ZERO substantial equivalents. I could be wrong, but I think since then (7 years) it's only ruled on three total submissions, and one of those was denied despite being exactly the same size, shape, and material as something already on the market.

[PigFish]

I knew the old all taxes are theft bit would pop up here.

You know brother, this cuts two ways.

... I knew, the I am afraid of life, and I need the government to 'love' me, coddle me and tell me what to do idolatry would pop up here as well!!!

When one's position is that one need to be protected from the freedom of a neighbor, a common elitist view that one's neighbor is stupid and cannot manage to make decisions for himself; perhaps he, the elitist did not notice that he too is someone's neighbor!

The fact is, some around here are bright enough to realize that the sky is falling (rhetorical parallel to freedom) and others so buried in ideology and fear will not get it until someone goose-steps the message to their front door!

-the Pig