CaptainQuintero Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Prevention better than cure in Cuban healthcare system - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35073966
NSXCIGAR Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Preventive care certainly doesn't hurt. Obviously there's been quite a bit written about the deceptive picture of Cuban medical care to the western world. It's not the worst but it's far from the best and should not be held up as a model of greatness every country should aspire to. Besides, I don't trust any stats coming out of Cuba, especially health stats. Their infant mortality rate is not particularly low (4.2) and probably higher than they claim. There are a lot of discrepancies in how stillborn and premature births are reported all over the world that can affect that stat. The US, for example has a deceptively high infant mortality rate because of differing reporting criteria/methods between countries. Same goes for life expectancy. Cuba's is good but not great, and probably lower than reported by the gov't. Their diet is probably a large factor. They aren't eating all the processed junk the rest of the west eats resulting in far less heart disease. There's also a low murder/suicide rate, no significant military and no industry for accidental deaths, etc. Their climate is moderate meaning few extreme heat/cold deaths. And they're still only ranked 34-57 after all that. The part where it compares Cuban and US costs per head is just dumb. Sure the US spends 20x more but 70-80% of that figure is bureaucracy and administrative waste. So it's really more like 2-3x as much, and of course it's easy to keep costs down in Cuba with maximum price controls. The doctors there are making less than some cigar rollers. So if you were to trim the fat in the US and remove the price controls in Cuba the numbers wouldn't be so far apart. And at that point, all things equal, I think I'd take the US care. 1
El Presidente Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Cuban health care is streets ahead of similar countries. There is a well entrenched system (training, distribution, pharma production). I wouldn't be choosing it ahead of Oz health care by any means but that is not the point. For the resources they have it is quite a remarkable outcome. Mind you, having spent some time in and around the cuban health system at different times, it is no eutopia. Equipment is dated, and day to day essentials (non Pharma necessities) can be short on the ground. What never ceases to amaze me is the quality of care from local doctors be it in Havana, Pinar, Giron, Cienfuegos, Trinidad (have needed them for tour members on occasion in each locale). The initial consult they provide is as detailed as anything you will find in Oz and the US from any GP (general practitioner). His/her resources may not be the same, the ECG machine may be 20 years old but the consult process and the issuing of approriate drugs (all generic and cost a pittance in comparison to our country) is top rate. 2
cigcars Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Thank you for saying that, El Presidente`! Because I just couldn't think of how I could respond without sounding like I'd be delving into American Politics, most definitely verbotten. But at the end of NSXCIGAR'S statement that he'd prefer our Stateside care to Cuba's...yeah, if you can get it. Before our President painstakingly got several millions of us able to get REAL healthcare, people had to wait 8 to sometimes 24 hours in the emergency rooms just to have a handful of pills thrown at them and then be sent home - to eventually die because they weren't properly diagnosed. Several of us have lost loved ones like that because poor people got poor medical coverage here. Okay - out here. And thanks again for giving acknowledgement to a health system that at least cares about their patients regardless of money, and using what they've got to the best of their ability to treat them. 4
Popular Post Benzopyrene Posted December 13, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 13, 2015 Cigcars.....as a physician myself.....who cares about his patients....your above comment is pretty offensive. Working at a county hospital our indegent population got everything they needed, and they didnt have to pay a dime. It was all subsidized by taxes. Oh and BTW most peoples health care insurance has gone up....and there are still millions of people that didnt buy the president mandated health insurance, because now its definitely too expensive. And 8-24 hr.....really your complaining about waiting. Go to Canada or England where you might have to wait months or years to get what you need......Im sorry, but you are so misinformed it hurts. PLEASE dont insult us the people that work our butts off everyday to help others around us.....we may not be perfect all the time but we sure as hell try our best. . As for this post....Im sure cuban doctors are very well trained, and I know for a fact they have very limited recources. Im sure if they'd be wonderful practicioners wherever they went. 10
CaptainQuintero Posted December 13, 2015 Author Posted December 13, 2015 Go to Canada or England where you might have to wait months or years to get what you need......Im sorry, but you are so misinformed it hurts. I'd respectfully say the same about being misinformed in regard to the NHS services you mentioned. Waiting times are spectacularly misreported in US media. Non emergency procedures like ingrown toe nail surgery has a week's wait. A doctor's appointment; you ring or go online to your local clinic's website in the morning at 8am and you get an appointment for that same day. 2
JackFNQ Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Cigcars.....as a physician myself.....who cares about his patients....your above comment is pretty offensive. Truth hurts 2
SCgarman Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 If Cuban medical equipment is anything like the 1950's cars which are cobbled together to stay running, I will certainly take my doctors and their medical equipment here in the US any day of the week, thank you very much. Sorry, no comparison. 1
oliverdst Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Wonderful. You have no idea what is living in a poor country where poor people can't have a decent healthcare system. BTW, Brazil and Cuba have an agreement and thousands of Cuban doctors work in Brazil. All the patients agree: they prefer to be assisted by Cubans because they are more "human" than Brazilian's (probably because Brazilian doctors only think about money and don't want to go to poor cities). 1
leftimatic Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 And 8-24 hr.....really your complaining about waiting. Go to Canada or England where you might have to wait months or years to get what you need. I have never waited a week for anything medical in Canada let alone months or years. 2
Benzopyrene Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Guys I'm not here to compare our systems, only passing forward things I have heard from my patients. I am not an expert on the NHS services outside of my country, and it was not my intent to offend. However, I have met multiple people who have come to the US for their treatment from these countries and can recount endless stories of having to wait in excess of 48 hrs for care in emergency facilities, being denied treatment for treatable diseases because they are too old, or having to go see multiple doctors before they are allowed to get the treatment they actually need, which at times has been too late. Again, not my experiences but just from people I've met that have come here for my services. Not everyone will have the same experiences, and Im not saying that these systems are any better or worse than the one I work in. All of this is beside the point....the point I'm trying to make is it's offensive to suggest that just because you had to wait 8-24 hrs in an ER somewhere and had to pay your bill that Doctors don't care about their patients in the US. Thats the ridiculous kind of ignorant nonsense that really has no place around here. If someone truly feels that way about their experience then they need to find doctors that don't make them feel that way, and not make blatant assumptions about all doctors. If you would truly prefer to have your health care in Cuba, then please by all means go to Cuba.....by their $3 a day insurance... and get what you need, there is nobody here stopping you. I'm sure they would do a great job with the resources that they have ( which is by no means their fault). This will be my last post on this matter. And for JackFNQ.....go troll somewhere else, that was a jerkish comment and you don't even know me, so take that crap.....well you know what to do with it. 2
Popular Post PigFish Posted December 13, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 13, 2015 Ultimately I think one has to ask if a doctor is the property of the state? Since everyone is the property of the state in Cuba, I suppose there is parity there. I won't call it equality because the ruling class is far above in both economic and actual freedom than the "ruled" class. But, that is not my point. Does anyone here think that they should work for free? I don't mean doctors, I mean you. Please raise your hand if you think you make too much. By all means if you think that, pay extra taxes or give the needy... I would think it would go without saying that it is prejudiced comment to say that "doctors are XXXX" as much as "blacks are YYY" or "women are ZZZZ." Do you get my point? Why then would we bypass all the tinkering of the Administrative State and blame the doctor for the cost of healthcare. How much more healthcare could you get if that greedy doctor did not have to pay 200K for malpractice insurance? What exactly are the ambulance chasing attorneys (not all attorneys) doing to get you better cheaper healthcare that they should get a big settlement and a nice home off of a doctor making a mistake? I suppose of all the comments that were made in the post above (no offense Janet) the one that I find the most disturbing is the one about how a politician "got us able." I just think that it is a shame that anyone has this mindset because it represents theft! Yes, I said it... Unfunded government subsidies and programs = theft! As a matter of fact, the funded ones, in the case of my country are generally equivalent to theft as well. Our national debt is now almost 20 trillion dollars. This number is has doubled since the current regime! Does anyone ask themselves what this number really means? If not, I will tell you... It means that a group of power hungry people (both parties) have conspired to find a way to tax the unborn... Yes friends, that is what it means. It means that those who are children now, and those that are yet to be born to be citizens of our country, will be left to hold the bag for our greed and lust for government programs. And what were the motives of these programs? Were they to make us in some form better? No, not really, not past any short term affect. They were simply used to buy off the masses of unknowing, to buy a vote, so that the masters could keep a cushy and powerful job in the nations capital. So when you are taking the doctors time and not paying him/her you are stealing from him, are you not? Does this fly over anyone's head? Good! If they are getting paid via the surreptitious redirection of moneys from a debit account on the Fed, is it suddenly not theft? Yes it still is, becasue you are then stealing from your own children and grandchildren, or those of others... Can you see that? There is no free healthcare! There is charitable healthcare and healthcare (if funded by the State) that is paid for on the backs of another. The government, no government has its own money. If it did, there would be no need to tax. Taxation is not 'government money.' It is money taken by force from the population. When it is not popular (this means that you won't get back into office) if you raise taxes and you want to give away more money to buy votes what do you do then? You simple devise a plan to 'steal' from those who cannot vote!!! Or, you steal your money from the unborn (they cannot vote either!)... That is what government debt has become my friends... That is what it is. It is not a means to cover a shortfall for an emergency. It is a means to put YOUR DEBT onto your children and someone else's children... AND, it is pretty disgusting when you think about it! When the government does not keep an honest set of books, the accountants and controllers should go to jail just like they do in the private sector... Yet this does not happen. Ever ask yourself why? Because the ruling class is above the law. They stay outta' jail by the same means that they keep some of us happy. They do this BY GIVING US STUFF THAT THEY DON'T OWN! THEY STEAL MONEY, CALL IT TAXATION, FROM ANOTHER, AND GIVE IT TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE FOR A VOTE. Man, that is the unholy shame of it. Some of US don't want to know or see the truth because we are bought and paid for with other people's earnings... It is not good will. It is graft. IT IS THEFT. IT IS A CRIME. It is the way Washington, and every other corrupt government works. -Piggy 9
cigcars Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Cigcars.....as a physician myself.....who cares about his patients....your above comment is pretty offensive. Working at a county hospital our indegent population got everything they needed, and they didnt have to pay a dime. It was all subsidized by taxes. Oh and BTW most peoples health care insurance has gone up....and there are still millions of people that didnt buy the president mandated health insurance, because now its definitely too expensive. And 8-24 hr.....really your complaining about waiting. Go to Canada or England where you might have to wait months or years to get what you need......Im sorry, but you are so misinformed it hurts. PLEASE dont insult us the people that work our butts off everyday to help others around us.....we may not be perfect all the time but we sure as hell try our best. . As for this post....Im sure cuban doctors are very well trained, and I know for a fact they have very limited recources. Im sure if they'd be wonderful practicioners wherever they went. I suppose I took it that most folks would not take my observances as a "100% of the time" occurrence; just an overview of what's happened an alarmingly high number of times. If the shoe doesn't fit you - then YOU don't HAVE to take offense at it. And I'm glad that you're one of the types of doctors that some of us past the age of our late '50's enjoyed once upon a time - doctors who genuinely cared about their patients, and not so much the almighty dollar. As for what I figured would start the usual attacks on our President's healthcare program, I'm not going to get into the mechanics of debating that (too much danger of American politics). But just as you've shown us that you have a heart, and concern for your fellow man, our current President too in the beginning of his running for office actually sat down reading those letters of anguish from his fellow Americans who couldn't afford reasonable medical coverage, going into bankruptcy to pay for their care, etc.; reading them to his wife in disbelief, "Look at this, Michelle..." and he did his best to try to do something about it - with all the nonstop attacks from those who already are well taken care of. I'll stop on that note. But for me - no I'VE never had to really wait that long in emergency rooms for medical help. I've got no complaints at all because I've had jobs that gave me pretty good coverage in the past, and I'm a disabled vet, so I have access to VA medical coverage also. I'm talking about what too many Americans have had to endure. And again, if this is not you, then you don't have to take offense. Because again, this was not a blanket condemnation of ALL U.S. Doctors in the American medical system, it was my humble response to an earlier statement that I felt was a little unfair to Cuba's medical system as they are doing the best they can with what little they've got. 1
El Presidente Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 If Cuban medical equipment is anything like the 1950's cars which are cobbled together to stay running, I will certainly take my doctors and their medical equipment here in the US any day of the week, thank you very much. Sorry, no comparison. It is not that bad by any means. A 20 year old ECG machine works perfectly fine. This thread isn't about politics surely? My point was about the level of General Practitioner care and access. That particular aspect of their health care system is as good as most benchmark countries in the world. Now ask a Cuban Doctor how things are and they are ridiculously underpaid and frustrated by almost all aspects of the system. It is the reason you will find many of them driving Taxis or working in bars. Almost all suplement their income by working a second job. That is no different to Engineers, scientists, teachers etc. I have always thought Cuba has the most educated Taxi drivers in the world.
Jeremy Festa Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 I say lock this thread down now before everyone's feelings get hurt and we all have to see a doctor in our respective countries. Sent from my iPhone 3
NSXCIGAR Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 I actually meant my initial comments to be somewhat praiseworthy of Cuba's medical results. They're pretty poor and are able to deliver an astonishingly high level of care. But my point is that their system is far from an ideal one that some claim. The US system is a mess for sure but for reasons many don't realize. If anyone cares about the subject and it appears many are highly invested in the topic it would be instructive to understand some basic things about health care in the US such as: -Up until the early 20th century the average lower/middle class person and their entire family in the US could obtain one year of high-quality medical care with 24-hour doctor access for no more than one week's pay. This was accomplished through the private lodge system (read about it). -The American Medical Assn. has intentionally limited the number of doctors and accredited medical schools by lobbying for and obtaining a monopoly on licensing by the government for about 100 years. It was well understood at the time that this policy was pursued and lobbied for solely to limit doctor supply and therefore boost their salaries. The lodge system had been reducing consumer costs for decades and lowering doctor's salaries while increasing quality of care. It had to be stopped, of course. -It is virtually impossible to construct new hospitals in the US. "Certificate of need" laws require gaining approval for allowing new hospitals from all surrounding hospitals in a given region. Try asking all the pizza places in town whether or not a new pizza place should be allowed. You get the idea. -The malpractice laws are so perverted and slanted towards patients doctors must constantly engage in what's referred to as "defensive medicine" for fear of being sued by every patient they treat. This results in the ordering of all sorts of unnecessary tests and procedures further inflating the cost of treatment. -Medical insurance companies aren't allowed to compete across state lines. There is absolutely no reason for this inane law which limits competition. Additionally, most states require what are called coverage "mandates" for individual's insurance policies. This results in men being forced to pay for unnecessary coverage like fertility and pregnancy coverage and women having to pay for prostate coverage, for example. No one is allowed to opt out. -Drug patent laws and medicare also drive up costs and are hotbeds of fraud and waste. Too big a topic to dissect here. When these factors are realized it would appear that government interventions and bizarre laws in the health care industry have resulted in an enormous inflation of costs and have driven wedges between doctors and patients. The "system" is then blamed but what kind of hampered and perverted system is this? Again, the US early 20th century with its relative freedom in all aspects of health care provided the highest levels of health care to the average man the world had ever seen. For those that claim improved technology has increased costs look to the world of private practice elective surgeries not covered by insurance. The costs keep falling and the quality keeps improving. Technology should always decrease costs, not increase them. There's a lot to be said for getting doctors and patients together, one-on-one and personalizing treatment. That's one thing that the Cuban system appears to do and I think it's very underrated in terms of treatment outcomes. That philosophy has certainly gone by the wayside in the US and many other western countries. That aspect of Cuban medical care should be a lesson to all. 1
SCgarman Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 It is not that bad by any means. A 20 year old ECG machine works perfectly fine. This thread isn't about politics surely? My point was about the level of General Practitioner care and access. That particular aspect of their health care system is as good as most benchmark countries in the world. Now ask a Cuban Doctor how things are and they are ridiculously underpaid and frustrated by almost all aspects of the system. It is the reason you will find many of them driving Taxis or working in bars. Almost all suplement their income by working a second job. That is no different to Engineers, scientists, teachers etc. I have always thought Cuba has the most educated Taxi drivers in the world. Apparently Cuban taxi drivers are among the highest money earners on the island. Some are making 1500 dollars and upwards a month. Incredible.
NSXCIGAR Posted December 14, 2015 Posted December 14, 2015 Apparently Cuban taxi drivers are among the highest money earners on the island. Some are making 1500 dollars and upwards a month. Incredible. Yes, that's apparently true. Of course due to the government strictly limiting supply through licensing. I'd love to know who you have to be or what you have to do to actually get one of these permits. I'm sure there's no corruption of course. And according to this article it also allows them to bribe doctors for better health care...now why would they feel the need to do that?
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