Condensation (Dew Point) Calc for RH and Temp

[Fosgate]

So I'm going through an testing my wineador while I wait for my cabinets and fresh order of cigars. Pulled all the racks out and just setup beads, fan, hygrometer etc. Day 1 I had condensation developing. Thinking this probably wont be good and then it hit me. We had a cold snap that I turned my thermostat up to heat up the room a bit a few days before. It reminded me of when I was a kid having widows fog up and freeze in our kitchen. This got me thinking about some nerd stuff I learned in college while taking my brewing class about dew point so I went and looked it up and found a solution to my condensation issue.

Without going into a bunch of science crap the basic is this. We usually only think of what is going on inside the humidor and never take into account the temp outside and what effect it has on the wineador. The glass itself is not a double or triple pane glass like storm windows in my area that help insulate the interior of a house during winter. So what do you do? Just think about your room temp. I found this calculator to figure out my room temp not to exceed.

If you plug in your Rh inside the humidor to the first box and your room temperature in the next box and select either Fahrenheit or Celsius then calculate, you will see below the temperature that the dewpoint (condensation) will occur at the given temperature Inside your humidor. In my case I had my room temp at 79f and my inside Rh at 64 and temp of the wineador at 65 and the dew point is 65.76 internal to your wineador. So what I did was went to my room thermostat and turned the temp down by two degress. Next day, no more condensation. So three days with condensation, made the change and now three days without condensation.

Here is the calculator I used rather than doing the math manually. Hope it helps someone.

http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphumidity/dewpoint_equation_dewpoint_temperature.php#ajscroll

[CUBANO]

Thanks for the post.

[PigFish]

Dew point of course is a matter of both rH and temperature.

Your experience brings me back to an argument that I have made here for a very long time. Storing cigars in a refrigerated space, below 70F is a bad idea... MHO!

It is especially bad for those of us who live in humid areas. This is because an air exchange with the outside during cigar selection will introduce a lot of water into the humidor. That water will generally increase as the temperature of the humidor declines because all the water that comes in contact with a conductive solid surface will give up its freedom and stick to the solid surface as the energy is taken from it, and it bonds.

Here is something that is very hard for most wine cooler humidor makers to understand... You all have condensation my friends! If your cooler is cooling, and you are storing cigars within the realm that you claim, 65/65 and so on, you cannot cool without condensation in the real world!

If you go back to the calculator and plug in 65/65 into it you will get a new dew point of about 53F. So you have to ask yourself, how cold does my cooler's cooling unit get when it operates? You should measure it to find out. If it works at all my friends, it is getting colder than 53F.... Check it yourself!

Condensation is a part of the real world in making cooled humidors. You have to learn to deal with it, not pretend it does not happen, because it does! If it doesn't, well, you have other problems, like your humidor is a lot dryer than you think it is....

Thanks for sharing! -Piggy

[Fosgate]

If you go back to the calculator and plug in 65/65 into it you will get a new dew point of about 53F. So you have to ask yourself, how cold does my cooler's cooling unit get when it operates? You should measure it to find out. If it works at all my friends, it is getting colder than 53F.... Check it yourself!

Thanks for sharing! -Piggy

Agreed, and the bigger the gap between the outside and inside environment, the more frequent and time your cooling unit runs to maintain interior temp=more condensation. Knowing this all now makes me think twice about touching the thermostat from my summer settings where I like the temp in the mid to upper 60's.

[Sprouthog]

Great post guys. Common problem with newbies with wineadors understanding the relationship between temp and RH.

[Camshaft83]

So has anyone had problems with dew ruining their collection? I ask this because I'm in the market for a new humidor and I was leaning toward a wineador.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[PigFish]

Prolonged, sporadic or in any way consistent liquid water contact with cigars will ruin them...! There are plenty of pictures of moldy cigars on the net. All cause by liquid water.

-Piggy

[PapaDisco]

If you go back to the calculator and plug in 65/65 into it you will get a new dew point of about 53F. So you have to ask yourself, how cold does my cooler's cooling unit get when it operates? You should measure it to find out. If it works at all my friends, it is getting colder than 53F.... Check it yourself!

Really good point.

Since we're trying to cool our cigar storage spaces (wineador, humidor, etc.) far less dramatically than the average refrigerator, would it be productive to deliberately undersize the cold plate and then connect it to an oversized temperature sink? So that you get a very large cooling surface, but one that can only be, say 5F colder than your 65F target?

This assumes that you're keeping the unit in an air-conditioned house of course. If you had it in your garage where the ambient was 85F then you'd need enough cooling to generate that 20F differential. Hmmm.

[studiousjr]

I placed a sack of 60% HF beads (size of a softball) near the fan in the back. It appears to be stabilizing it better than before. I also have a full bag of 60% HF beads spread out in a tray on the bottom, and the top. It's not perfect, but it holds the humidity between 65% and 67% in SoCal. 65% Bovedas in the boxes, and the boxes inside tupperware.

[Miner]

Jeez

The lightbulb just came on...

I could not understand why my humidor was 70% humidity when the room humidity was 65%.

Till I used the calc

Room temp = 25C

Room humid = 65%

Humidor set temp = 18C

Do the math and the dew point = 17.9C

No wonder it was so wet in there !! DOH

So I set the temp in the humidor to 20C and the problem is manageable.

You Guys are Genii !!

Cheers

[Fosgate]

So, I found my exterior and internal temp balance from this calculator. Have not had to touch my beads since I posted this. Maintaining a perfect 65rh at all zones.

[Fosgate]

Two months shy of a year from my OP and I still have not had to mess with it. Temp and humidity still at a constant 65rh in all four zones being measured. 

https://goo.gl/photos/HoNzCdn1QkwzRtbz8

https://goo.gl/photos/z6GbGCYCMWVd3ho88

https://goo.gl/photos/1X8iuuBDzQFm6NJM7

 

[Cep]

Mr Piggy your posts scare the crap outta me mate!  You do make it sound like we are all basically doomed.  

My TE internal temp is 61.5-63F, RH 65%,  the temp in my condo is approx 70F.  

I am worried about condensation, but I havent seen any as of yet. With my conditions, would it be more likely to appear on the front glass or inside by the fan?  I dont really want to open the door long enough to be looking for any wetness, even though I dont think there is any.  But I also dont want any water building up and/or dripping onto a box of cigars.  Maybe i can tape a small sponge underneath the fan to collect any condensation that could possibly happen.  

I was really hoping that due to the relatively small temp difference between inside/outside the humidor that I would be safe.  After reading all this, I am not sure at all.  

 

 

[joeypots]

So I keep my humidor in an air-conditioned room. If I notice my cigars getting a little damp, no matter what the hygrometer reads, I put some dry beads in and the RH goes down. I do this two, three times a summer. As things dry out in the fall and winter, I moisten the beads. Two, three time in the cooler months. Works for me.

[Cep]

how can I know for certain what the TRUE avg RH is in my humidor?

I have one hygrometer that has memory of high/low RH and TEMP.  I guess looking at that after a 1 week period would be a good idea? 

I am very very new to this hobby.  I would think that if my boxes were at 65% internally, that a short spike in the humi down to low 50 and then back up, would not affect the cigars inside the boxes.  Of course, I could very well be wrong..

 

Also, I don't doubt what you are saying.  It's just scary to think of all the ppl running wineador's that are going to end up in a world of hurt!  (possibly)

 

 

 

[scap99]

Anyone ever thought about doing a chiller?

External cooling unit gets a fluid to setpoint and a pump transfers cooled fluid through a heat exchanger in the cabinet.

Get exchange shouldn't go below dew point and the chiller could run for longer periods to offset the warmer fluid temps.

 

Would be like the chilled beam HVAC systems used in Europe.

 

[MahDooRow]

...

  

[LordAnubis]

Play the science not the man. You can't read mannerism through text. I trust no one means any ill feelings through this thread.

If you would like to debate science, then debate science... with proofs, and theories and data. If you don't agree with something, explain why.

It would be a shame to remove this thread because people have sensitive feelings and can't have a healthy debate about facts with proven evidence.

Lets get back into the spirit of FoH shall we

 

[El Presidente]

Just now, PigFish said:

 

Yes my friend, I know better and I am sorry for you and your staff's involvement. Thankfully I had the forethought not to post my gut reaction, I may have found myself suspended... -LOL

I am going to cut every post of mine on this thread and be done with it. It will save you the trouble!

Cheers, Ray

 

Ray....I found your Tech post informative. I actually understood it ....and for that you deserve an award as I am a tech desert. 

[PigFish]

I am not here to plague anyone mate, especially you! I believe the thread is of value, not due to, but including my content. I am biased however!

There is no need for you to clean up for me, I am willing to do it myself. I am sure you have better things to do.

Thanks for your patience. Oh, and I am glad that you understand my language and intent. You are represented in an area of the Gaussian that I can relate to! -Ray

[PigFish]

I am done here! Cheers. -Piggy

[LGC]

Ray, I don't know if you will even read this...

I know you want to change the cigar world by spreading the knowledge, but it is a lost cause with many people my friend. If certain people get on your nerves, try using the block/ignore feature. I have used it multiple times in order to make the forum more enjoyable.

Many people don't want to use a scientific approach with cigar storage or selecting cigars. They simply want someone to tell them what to do... or base their practices on their own "common sense."

These days, I find life to be much more enjoyable when I stop trying to paddle upstream with some people... so to speak

[PigFish]

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

Ray, I don't know if you will even read this...

I know you want to change the cigar world by spreading the knowledge, but it is a lost cause with many people my friend. If certain people get on your nerves, try using the block/ignore feature. I have used it multiple times in order to make the forum more enjoyable.

Many people don't want to use a scientific approach with cigar storage or selecting cigars. They simply want someone to tell them what to do... or base their practices on their own "common sense."

These days, I find life to be much more enjoyable when I stop trying to paddle upstream with some people... so to speak

My friend I get great pleasure talking cigars, humidors and helping people. I am not looking to change the world, I am looking to help a few take better care of their cigars. Frankly, if a few people don't like my style, or my content, I could care less! They are a minority. I am not worked up about it, I am right back helping the next guy in the 'water hole' because he wants help. It takes more than one putz to get me to stop being me. Better people have tried!

I get massive amounts of email soliciting help and saying thanks for spending the time to address them. It is simple generosity with another smoker and I enjoy it. I try to support the community.

Most people are extremely generous with their praise for my help, but that is not why I do it. I have a lot of friends here, like you! That is why I do what I do!

Thanks for you thoughts. -Ray

[Fugu]

Just coming back to this thread after about a week, only to find it seems I missed something. Now I am slowly getting an idea, Piggy, of the meaning of your commenting in the other thread...!! Wasn't aware of what was going on here in parallel...

 

On 29/07/2016 at 1:13 AM, El Presidente said:

Ray....I found your Tech post informative. I actually understood it ....and for that you deserve an award as I am a tech desert. 

On 29/07/2016 at 1:29 AM, PigFish said:

I am done here! Cheers. -Piggy

A pity, it would have been nice to know at least what the tech. criticism was. Has it really been deemed necessary to completely delete those - critical (&offensive?) - posts? Just curious, you know, as I am interested in the debate. If the questioned input had indeed been without any value to the debate, fine with me. But if there had been points addressed, which are repeatedly popping up every now and then - even if unjustifiedly and wrongfully questioned -, it could have been of broader interest (or, at least to the Puffer). A real shame to kill off a useful thread just because of some idiot postings.