Cohiba and Trinidad VS. Dunhill and Davidoff

[Lant63]

Another thread got me thinking as to why Dunhill and Davidoff, which were both "super premium" flagships for Cuban cigars, seemed to succeed together while Cohiba seems to be the death of Trinidad. I personally don't know, but I was hoping some of the more experienced Cigar smokers may be able to shed some light on how Dunhill and Davidoff seemed to coexist successfully? How could Habanos use that to help turn around Trinidad?

[tjhernandez34]

I stumbled upon this, it sparked my interest, so it's been bumped.

[Smallclub]

how Dunhill and Davidoff seemed to coexist successfully?

"Coexist" has to be taken with a grain of salt, IMHO. I started to be fascinated by cigars in the 70's; I remember my father's friends spliting cabs of Chateau Margaux or Haut Brion, but I've never seen a Dunhill cigar. I don't even know if they were available in France (which was and still is one of the main market for habanos).

[dvickery]

tjhernandez/landt

there still is a davidoff and a dunhill line of cigars ... promoted by their own companies .

nothing much has changed except country of origin of the cigars .

so really ... what is it you are asking ???

derrek

[Lant63]

tjhernandez/landt

there still is a davidoff and a dunhill line of cigars ... promoted by their own companies .

nothing much has changed except country of origin of the cigars .

so really ... what is it you are asking ???

derrek

When both were still produced in Cuba, did one dominate the other? Smallclub said that davidoff was much more popular, at least in France. That is similar to cohiba being much more popular than Trinidad(thus the discontinuation of the robusto and robusto extra).

Sent by telepathic super powers

-Stogie Boy

[mk05]

...Dunhill and Davidoff...seemed to coexist successfully? How could Habanos use that to help turn around Trinidad?

Much of what you asked about Dunhill and Davidoff has been written about for many years, so I'll let you discover that on your own and come to your own understanding.

As for turning around Trinidad...design a new holographic Warhol-style Fidel Castro's face band that is smokeable, as is intended by such a horrid thing. Punch in the gut to the Behike band.

[Maplepie]

As for turning around Trinidad...design a new holographic Warhol-style Fidel Castro's face band that is smokeable, as is intended by such a horrid thing. Punch in the gut to the Behike band.

I am so horrendously bamboozled by that sentence there. Why is Andy Warhol and Fidel Castro being punched by Trinidad?

[Philski]

I'm not sure that Davidoff and Dunhill were engaged in a 'Who's the best?' battle. It's before my time, but I think they stood on their own merits. This was a pre-Internet age when knowledge was primarily gained through experience and word of mouth. Also, the cigar market was probably rather more siloed (cf SC's post) and so they could flourish in their home territories rather than competing in a global market.

Cohiba flourishes in no small way due to its legend and reputation, something Trinidad doesn't have. But at the end of the day, if Trinidads were truly outstanding cigars in every way, they too would flourish.

[sw15825]

Well, Cuban Davidoffs were produced for quite a bit longer than Dunhill. It seems Davidoff was the legend allready when Dunhill came out possibly? But now both are legend as they are discontinued. Maybe some old timers know about this more. Like how they were percieved then.

Today, Cohiba, The Legend outsells the Trinidad for the name brand, reputation as the best and only brand to do tripple fermentation on some of the leaves. Then compare that to the cost of Trinidad, which most smokers think are over priced for what they are getting. As well as one stick going to the angels from each box.

For instance, the Robustos T that were piled high in warehouses and stores, priced too high, untill they "Discontinue" them. Then they sell like crazy and pretty much are gone unless you pay even more inflated prices!

Trinidad could sell alot more if the price were slightly less, in the middle range between Cohiba and the other premium brands imho.

[ewipper]

Had it occurred to anyone that Cohiba killed Davidoff and Dunhill? Cohiba kills everything. Resistence is futile and there is no profit in partnership for Cubatabaco/Habanos.

[sw15825]

Yes. Cubatabacco killed off the 2 Ds when they demanded complete control of production and distribution of the brands. At that time they were telling them sign it all over or well send you no more cigars to sell. So it was all win for cubatabacco and the Ds fled town. Cohiba had allready been born and being sold at the time but my question is what would have happened if they had signed rights of the 2 Ds over ?? How would it look today?

[Lant63]

Yes. Cubatabacco killed off the 2 Ds when they demanded complete control of production and distribution of the brands. At that time they were telling them sign it all over or well send you no more cigars to sell. So it was all win for cubatabacco and the Ds fled town. Cohiba had allready been born and being sold at the time but my question is what would have happened if they had signed rights of the 2 Ds over ?? How would it look today?

Exactly, would we have four "premium" brands now? It would be something amazing to think about.

Sent by telepathic super powers

-Stogie Boy

[Habana Mike]

Davidoff:

In 1967, Davidoff was approached by Cubatabaco, Cuba's state tobacco monopoly after the Revolution, about creating a personal brand of cigars for his stores. The cigars were rolled in the newly established El Laguito factory in Havana, which had been established to roll Cuban President Fidel Castro's own private cigars, Cohíba. In 1968 the first productions of Davidoff cigars were released, which included the No. 1, the No. 2, and Ambassadrice (which all shared the same sizes as the early Cohiba line) and the Châteaux Series (now no longer under the Hoyo de Monterrey label, but exclusively made for the Davidoff marque).

In the 1970s, the Mille Series, a milder blend than the rest of the line, and the Dom Pérignon, named for the famous champagne, were released on the market. In 1986, a special limited release of 80 Anniversarios cigars were made to celebrate Zino's 80th birthday.

In 1982, the Château Yquem cigar produced by Davidoff was discontinued after the owner of Château d'Yquem wine protested over their unauthorized use of the trade name. The Château Mouton Rothschild came out shortly after, though with a different blend and slightly different size from its predecessor.

Apparently after numerous disputes over quality and ownership rights over the brand, Zino Davidoff and Cubatabaco decided to end their relationship. Leading up to this, in August 1989, Zino had publicly burned over one hundred thousand of his cigars that he had deemed of low quality and unfit to sell. The Cuban Davidoff line was officially discontinued in 1991, and an agreement was signed that no more Cuban Davidoffs would be sold in Davidoff shops worldwide. A Dominican-made Davidoff cigar had already hit the market in November 1990, where production of the sizes that had been made in Cuba continues to this day.

Former managers at El Laguito have claimed that the Davidoff blend was very similar to Cohíba, though with a lighter wrapper leaf. The bands used on Davidoff cigars themselves are of the same format that personalized diplomatic cigar bands had been in previous years.Adriano Martínez, a former executive of Habanos SA, confirmed in Min Ron Nee's Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Post-Revolution Havana Cigars that the Cohíba Línea 1492 was made to fill the gap left by the discontinuation of Davidoff.

Dunhill:

Beginning in 1977, Dunhill and Cubatabaco began discussing the possibility of producing a cigar brand bearing the name of Dunhill. An agreement was finally reached in 1982 and Dunhill cigars hit stores in 1984, starting with the Dunhill stores of ten countries and eventually expanding to thirty. The ultimate downfall of the Dunhill brand was that it was out to compete with the other high-end private label, Davidoff. Seeing as how both brands were being produced by Cubatabaco, the Cuban tobacco monopoly wanted to make profits from both and had no wish to participate in the market competition between the two tobacconists.

Unhappy with Cubatabaco's unwillingness, when the original contract expired in 1991 Dunhill chose not to renew, having already begun scoping possible new locations in the Canary Islands, Dominican Republic, and Honduras for cigar production. Eventually, Dunhill would give up making cigars altogether and sold the rights to put its name on tobacco products to British American Tobacco.

Wikipedia food for thought......

[dangolf18]

Cohibas seem to be the creme de la creme of current production Cuban cigars. I don't see how regular production cuban Davidoff or Dunhill could be better. Only way in which they could be better is the use of corojo Cuban leaf which I believe became extinct so to speak in the late 1990s.

[polarbear]

From what I've seen of how cubatobacco and HSA operate, they have no interest in producing cigars that they are 100% in control of.

If Davidoff Cigars were still being produced in Cuba I imagine it would only be through a licensing arrangement with the Davidoff group and would be solely controlled by HSA.

Does BA tobacco own Altidis?

If they did I could see a time when Dunhill cigars are produced in Cuba if the embargo fails. If Altidis already owned the Dunhil name and had some control over HSA I don't think Cuban Dunhils would be a stretch

[mk05]

"There can be only one" - Highlander

[CaptainQuintero]

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago where over of the top Dunhill guys said that there would again be Cuban Dunhill cigars being produced before the end of the decade. Stranger thing to say if plans were not already in place with hsa.